IVF and the worth of fathers

[BigBadWlf]

Wow, no one here is willing to admit that a child is better off being raised by two parents, one of each sex?

Because to say this would be dishonest.

It has been shown time after time in study after study that children raised by gay and lesbian parents turn out just as happy and well adjusted and children raised by heterosexual parents

 

[cantata]

Children can have male role models without having a father.

Well, that was easy.

 

[stan1980]

Children can have male role models without having a father.

Well, that was easy.

Not in the real world. My male role models were footballers who I'd never met, and some of them were thugs. Growing up, in my teenage years, my biggest male role model was Eric Cantona, and he wasn't exactly squeaky clean. He was a philosopher though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwXz4oC4h1c

 

[cantata]

Not in the real world. My male role models were footballers who I'd never met, and some of them were thugs. Growing up, in my teenage years, my biggest male role model was Eric Cantona, and he wasn't exactly squeaky clean. He was a philosopher though

Did I say "All children who don't have fathers have other male role models"?

*tumbleweed*

So what was your point again?

 

[stan1980]

Did I say "All children who don't have fathers have other male role models"?

*tumbleweed*

So what was your point again?

Calm down dear... I'm just saying most young boys and girls who are brought up by a single parent (typically their mother) don't have male role models. Single mothers just typically don't have reliable solid male friends who are going to spend time with their children (unless they get into another relationship). It's probably unrealistic to expect that, and I say this from my own and friends experiences growing up.

I'm fine if a lesbian couple want to bring up a child, but I'm just saying it isn't easy to find a male role model to be popping in and out of the home constantly. It isn't the end of the world though, not having a male role model, I turned out okay(ish).

 

[sidhe]

Calm down dear... I'm just saying most young boys and girls who are brought up by a single parent (typically their mother) don't have male role models. Single mothers just typically don't have reliable solid male friends who are going to spend time with their children (unless they get into another relationship). It's probably unrealistic to expect that, and I say this from my own and friends experiences growing up.

I'm fine if a lesbian couple want to bring up a child, but I'm just saying it isn't easy to find a male role model to be popping in and out of the home constantly. It isn't the end of the world though, not having a male role model, I turned out okay(ish).

I think Cantata's point is that you did have male role models, even if they were footballer thugs you never met. Not the best role models, but they were there.

After my dad did his vanishing act, my male influences were my sister's boyfriends...and a strange lot were they. Artsy English majors, or folks studying sexual deviance in psychology...kinda explains a lot.

 

[stan1980]

I think Cantata's point is that you did have male role models, even if they were footballer thugs you never met. Not the best role models, but they were there.

After my dad did his vanishing act, my male influences were my sister's boyfriends...and a strange lot were they. Artsy English majors, or folks studying sexual deviance in psychology...kinda explains a lot.

Well I suppose at least your sister's boyfriends were actually doing something with their lives. Eccentric is cool too.

A lot of young boys male role models these days in London are people like 50 cent. Needless to say, I don't think people who glorify gun crime and such are the best role models.

 

[sidhe]

A lot of young boys male role models these days in London are people like 50 cent. Needless to say, I don't think people who glorify gun crime and such are the best role models.

They get all the publicity though. At least when Bono isn't on TV. Why not emulate Bono?

The celebrity-idol culture is to blame for that state of affairs. These days, people get famous for doing things that would've gotten them blackballed even in the '70s. I like to watch someone self-destruct as much as the next person, but can we point out that it's a bad thing at least?

 

[stan1980]

They get all the publicity though. At least when Bono isn't on TV. Why not emulate Bono?

The celebrity-idol culture is to blame for that state of affairs. These days, people get famous for doing things that would've gotten them blackballed even in the '70s. I like to watch someone self-destruct as much as the next person, but can we point out that it's a bad thing at least?

Bono would be a good role model, but he doesn't really fit in with the urban culture in the built up areas where you tend to find young males who need male role models, and like you mentioned, he doesn't get much publicity these days.

I think a lot of young men are just attracted to male role models who are dangerous, and step on the wrong side of the law, and I'm not really sure what anyone can do about that.

The celebrity culture isn't too helpful either. If you ask a kid now what they want to be, they will say just say I want to be famous, but famous for what? Where as in the past kids would say they want to be a famous singer or famous actor or something.

 

[cantata]

Calm down dear... I'm just saying most young boys and girls who are brought up by a single parent (typically their mother) don't have male role models. Single mothers just typically don't have reliable solid male friends who are going to spend time with their children (unless they get into another relationship). It's probably unrealistic to expect that, and I say this from my own and friends experiences growing up.

I'm fine if a lesbian couple want to bring up a child, but I'm just saying it isn't easy to find a male role model to be popping in and out of the home constantly. It isn't the end of the world though, not having a male role model, I turned out okay(ish).

Firstly, I'd imagine that lesbian couples, or single women who go out of their way to get pregnant via IVF, are likely to be particularly interested in and concerned about good role models for their children. It's not like getting pregnant and then the father leaving or passing away. It's a planned situation. And a responsible woman or lesbian couple would do something like get a male child carer, or make sure a few responsible male friends, or grandfathers, or uncles, or whoever, were on hand to offer good role models to their children.

My main issue with your complaint was that I didn't say that fatherless children do have good male role models. I was saying that it is perfectly possible for them to have good male role models.

ETA: Celebrities are not enough. Children need to interact and identify with their role models. I'm talking about role models for everyday life and for interaction with other people, not role models for career paths. And Bono's a tosser

 

[Athene]

Britain recently changed its laws, so that single women and lesbian couples have equal access to invitro fertalization. This means that doctors will have to offer IVF to those who DELIBERATELY choose to have children without a father in the home to parent them (as opposed to two gender homes or to those who intend to have fathers present but the marriage ends in divorce).

The Chruch of England has raised the issue: Doesn't the right of children to be raised by both a father and mother outweigh any right to IVF treatment?

Or are fathers unecessary?

Ah yes, Britain where teenager girls DELIBERATELY get pregnant so they can have their own council house.*

*government owned housing which they rent out to people, there are waiting lists but pregnant women automatically go to the top of the list

Lesbians and single women in the UK are not forbidden from having children, they have children quite frequently without IVF, it's discrimination pure and simple to prohibit them from having IVF if they need it. The UK government is not saying that fathers are unimportant, but you need to realise that the government are not a religious body, they can not favour one religions morals over another and in this particular situation it has been brought to their attention that one group of people are being unfairly discriminated against so therefore they have had to deal with that issue.

 

[trunks2k]

Wow, no one here is willing to admit that a child is better off being raised by two parents, one of each sex?

Yes, a child is often better off being raised by two parents. But that is primarily do to finances and a the child getting the necessary attention that is more easily attainable from two parents rather than one. Does it need to be one of each sex? I've seen nothing that implies that is the case. Study after study have shown that children raised in same sex families are just as well off and well adjusted as children raised by heterosexual parents.

The two most important issues in raising a child are love & attention provided by the parent(s), and economic stability. This is most easily provided by two parents for obvious reasons. But that is not to say that a single parent cannot do just as good as a job as two parents, and same-sex parents are just as capable of providing this as a heterosexual couple.

Beyond that, we get into the fallacy that we should make a universal decision like this based on what's "better" for children. It's "better" for kids to be raised in an economically stable house. So does that mean we should not allow any poor people to have kids? It's "better" for kids to have parents that don't have any sort of chronic illness, so should we not allow any person with such an illness to have a child? Of course not. But the logic you utilize is exactly the same. When it comes to who is allowed to have/keep kids (not including issues like who a child lives with after a divorce), it's not about what is theoretically better for a child, but what is good enough for a child. The problem is drawing a line as to what is good enough. That can be a very fuzzy line, but in no way do single/same sex parents come anywhere near that line.

 

[sidhe]

And Bono's a tosser

Blaspheming atheist.

I'd agree that a role model to interact with is ideal, but too many people look to celebrities for how to interact with people. Given the choice between a young man looking up to Bono or Dizzee Raskal (oh yeah, I'm hip to the British hip-hop), I'd take Bono's charity work and such.

 

[stan1980]

And Bono's a tosser

What's wrong with Bono?

 

[cantata]

Blaspheming atheist.

I'd agree that a role model to interact with is ideal, but too many people look to celebrities for how to interact with people. Given the choice between a young man looking up to Bono or Dizzee Raskal (oh yeah, I'm hip to the British hip-hop), I'd take Bono's charity work and such.

In a choice between Bono and Dizzee Raskal, I agree with you!

What's wrong with Bono?

He has a habit of thinking he's hilarious when everyone around him is just laughing because he's Bono.

 

[Athene]

I like the South Park episode featuring Bono.

 

[Caitlin.ann]

Britain recently changed its laws, so that single women and lesbian couples have equal access to invitro fertalization. This means that doctors will have to offer IVF to those who DELIBERATELY choose to have children without a father in the home to parent them (as opposed to two gender homes or to those who intend to have fathers present but the marriage ends in divorce).

The Chruch of England has raised the issue: Doesn't the right of children to be raised by both a father and mother outweigh any right to IVF treatment?

Or are fathers unecessary?

Fathers are not necessary and there can be other male figures present within a child's life. Personally I'm glad that Britain changed its laws and I'm in full support of them.

 

[fuzzymel]

I loved Cantona. I loved Giggs more (wearing my Giggsy shirt right now) but Cantona was something else.

 

[Crazy Liz]

Wow, no one here is willing to admit that a child is better off being raised by two parents, one of each sex?

Better off and having a right are two different things.

Under a theory of a right to two parents, how long do you think a widow who has children or who is pregnant should be allowed before she has to marry another man?