Ivermectin Use in Indonesia

[JustSomeBloke]

Faced with overflowing hospitals, the authorities in Indonesia decided to try Ivermectin. Based on the article date, the mass use of Ivermectin in Indonesia appears to have commenced around about the second or third week of July.

Indonesia jumps the gun on Ivermectin as Covid cure
Indonesia's overflowing hospitals are using the anti-parasite drug despite its unproven efficacy against Covid-19

Below are some of the Worldometer COVID statistics for Indonesia.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Faced with overflowing hospitals, the authorities in Indonesia decided to try Ivermectin. Based on the article date, the mass use of Ivermectin in Indonesia appears to have commenced around about the second or third week of July.

Ivermectin causing a downturn in covid deaths is like the crowing rooster causing the sun to rise.

It is a correlation without a causation. It would be a mistake to conclude that the use of Ivermectin actually caused the downturn in the statistics.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

Ivermectin causing a downturn in covid deaths is like the crowing rooster causing the sun to rise.

It is a correlation without a causation. It would be a mistake to conclude that the use of Ivermectin actually caused the downturn in the statistics.

Indonesia isn't the only country that has reported a reduction in COVID infections and deaths after using Ivermectin.

I'm curious as to why so many people are opposed to Ivermectin. It's a drug with approximately 40 years usage, so the risks are well known, and it's cheap. We are continually told that COVID is an emergency situation, but there is no desire to allow people to take personal responsibility for their healthcare, and have the option to use Ivermectin at low cost. And yet, an expensive vaccine with no long term data is pushed on populations, and is sometimes even mandated.

Everything points towards money and profits.

 

[ripple the car]

Ivermectin causing a downturn in covid deaths is like the crowing rooster causing the sun to rise.

It is a correlation without a causation. It would be a mistake to conclude that the use of Ivermectin actually caused the downturn in the statistics.

If I were to believe those charts, I’d say that’s a pretty dramatic drop. I’d definitely want to know what caused new cases, active cases, and deaths to plummet like that, in near-uniform patterns. If the main thing that changed within the time space was administering a certain drug, I’d want to know more about that drug.

That anyone would say otherwise points to how insanely, tragically polarized, politicized, subjective, and tangled information, facts, correctly interpreting data, and finding the truth has been with this entire pandemic.

 

[Nithavela]

I thought the claim was that Ivermectin helps with a quick recovery when taken at an early stage. Why would it reduce new cases?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

If I were to believe those charts, I’d say that’s a pretty dramatic drop. I’d definitely want to know what caused new cases, active cases, and deaths to plummet like that, in near-uniform patterns. If the main thing that changed within the time space was administering a certain drug, I’d want to know more about that drug.

If you look at all the world-meter charts you will find equally "dramatic" drops in cases and deaths in other countries that did NOT coincide with the use of Ivermectin. Ivermectin has been and continues to be studied, but so far no signicant benefit for covid has been found.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I thought the claim was that Ivermectin helps with a quick recovery when taken at an early stage. Why would it reduce new cases?

The claim (unproven) is that it also works as a preventative.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I'm curious as to why so many people are opposed to Ivermectin. It's a drug with approximately 40 years usage, so the risks are well known, and it's cheap.

The reason is that if people believe it is effective, many will then avoid the vaccine, which has been proven to work. That's the chief danger of Ivermectin.

 

[Nithavela]

The claim (unproven) is that it also works as a preventative.

What a miraculous drug that is.

As in, it would be a miracle if it worked like that.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

The reason is that if people believe it is effective, many will then avoid the vaccine, which has been proven to work. That's the chief danger of Ivermectin.

Many countries that have very high vaccination rates are seeing a surge in infections. People can be forgiven for thinking that the vaccines don't really work. And you talk of a danger that people might reject the vaccine!

Look at Ireland:

Over 90% of people in Ireland aged over 16 are now fully vaccinated against Covid

and yet there is talk of restrictions!

WHO recommend local restrictions in Ireland to curb a winter Covid surge

We were repeatedly told that vaccines were the way back to normality. It was quite evidently a huge lie!

So what now? Continue to insist that the vaccines work, despite evidence to the contrary? Start dishing out booster vaccinations, despite the fact that the first two vaccinations didn't seem to help much, or if they did, the immunity faded extremely rapidly?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. But that's what the pro-vaxxers want to do. Just keep vaxxing, and totally ignore treatments such as Ivermectin.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Many countries that have very high vaccination rates are seeing a surge in infections. People can be forgiven for thinking that the vaccines don't really work.

I do not blame them. I blame those that spread misinformation that leads people to think vaccines don't work.

Look at Ireland:

Over 90% of people in Ireland aged over 16 are now fully vaccinated against Covid

The key is "over 16". Covid spreads among children. Overall, only 75% of the population is vaccinated. And even at that, the covid death rate in Ireland is averaging about ten people per day - out of a population of five million. Compare that with an average of 50 per day in February before the vaccine was widely available. But that is not the proof that the vaccine works. The proof that it works is the randomized trials and the continuing data.

We were repeatedly told that vaccines were the way back to normality.

It is not the only way back to normality, but it is the way that provides the least number of deaths and long-term organ damage.

So what now? Continue to insist that the vaccines work, despite evidence to the contrary?

The "evidence to the contrary" does not exist, except in the imagination of those who are victims of misinformation.

 

[ripple the car]

.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

I do not blame them. I blame those that spread misinformation that leads people to think vaccines don't work.


The key is "over 16". Covid spreads among children. Overall, only 75% of the population is vaccinated. And even at that, the covid death rate in Ireland is averaging about ten people per day - out of a population of five million. Compare that with an average of 50 per day in February before the vaccine was widely available. But that is not the proof that the vaccine works. The proof that it works is the randomized trials and the continuing data.


It is not the only way back to normality, but it is the way that provides the least number of deaths and long-term organ damage.


The "evidence to the contrary" does not exist, except in the imagination of those who are victims of misinformation.

Your argument only works if you put all your faith in the vaccine studies being bonafide. But unfortunately there are good reasons to be sceptical.

And it's now impossible to trust UK government covid data, because the PCR test has been manipulated by reducing the number of cycles, as per WHO guidance. This radically changed the sensitivity of the PCR covid test, and was done at about the same time that the vaccines were rolled out (first quarter of 2021).

In recent weeks, huge numbers of people are now unofficially reporting 'the worst cold ever', which sounds like they may have covid. However, they also report negative COVID test results. But false negatives would be expected, because the government manipulated the sensitivity of the PCR COVID test, by reducing the number of cycles.

 

[whatbogsends]

The problem with any of the rates data - be it transmissions or deaths - is that Covid appears to come and go in waves regardless of other factors (masking, vaccines, etc.). Rates going up or down at a particular period may be an indication of something (especially if the graph jumps rather than has it's standard shape), but what i find more useful is comparing the amplitude and duration of waves rather than simply X was done and rates dropped (at the end of a wave) or X changed and rates increased (after a lull period, preceding the next apparently inevitable wave).

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Your argument only works if you put all your faith in the vaccine studies being bonafide. But unfortunately there are good reasons to be sceptical.

..and now we see the fallback argument of "it's all a conspiracy".

And it's now impossible to trust UK government covid data, because the PCR test has been manipulated by reducing the number of cycles, as per WHO guidance. This radically changed the sensitivity of the PCR covid test, and was done at about the same time that the vaccines were rolled out (first quarter of 2021).

If the PCR sensitive really did alter the covid diagnosis rate then we would expect to see a step change in the graph of covid cases and covid deaths at that same time. But we don't. The changes in the graph are smooth and natural, indicating that the diagnosis was fairly unaffected by the change.

In recent weeks, huge numbers of people are now unofficially reporting 'the worst cold ever', which sounds like they may have covid. However, they also report negative COVID test results.

...using anecdotes to prove a statistical claim.

But false negatives would be expected, because the government manipulated the sensitivity of the PCR COVID test, by reducing the number of cycles.

...and we are back to conspiracy theories.

 

[JustSomeBloke]

For reference, Indonesia is recently (Oct 6, 2021) reported to have reached 150 million vaccinations. That's barely more than 50% of its 270 million population.

Indonesia hits 150 million mark in Covid-19 vaccine jabs

 

[JustSomeBloke]

..and now we see the fallback argument of "it's all a conspiracy".

You need to do much better than that. How about you address the huge conflicts of interest in that vaccine study? Shouting 'conspiracy theory' is an intellectually lazy response that seeks to avoid having to address the points raised.

If the PCR sensitive really did alter the covid diagnosis rate then we would expect to see a step change in the graph of covid cases and covid deaths at that same time. But we don't. The changes in the graph are smooth and natural, indicating that the diagnosis was fairly unaffected by the change.

You can only say that if you know that the testing rate is constant. But testing rate most probably isn't constant. For a start, many people only get tested when required by employer, school, university etc. So holidays such as Christmas will have a huge impact.

Anyway, even the WHO was eventually forced to admit that there was a problem with false positives. And a Swiss immunologist has reportedly said that asymptomatic infection (the cover story for false positives) is a myth.

WHO finally admits the problem of PCR tests

So they eventually reduced the number of cycles. From that point onwards, the COVID test data effectively had junk status.

WHO lowers cycle thresholds for PCR tests

After decades of measuring athletic performance at the Olympics, you wouldn't suddenly redefine how long a metre is, or how long a second lasts. But that is effectively what has been done for COVID PCR tests. They changed the number of PCR cycles, and that is straight up scientific fraud.

...using anecdotes to prove a statistical claim.

It's an important observation, when considered together with PCR test manipulation. And the phenomenon is evidently so widespread that journalists have written articles about 'the worst cold ever'.

...and we are back to conspiracy theories.

And we are back to your intellectual laziness, of labelling anything you don't like as a 'conspiracy theory'. Why should I bother responding in good faith when you display such behaviour?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

You need to do much better than that. How about you address the huge conflicts of interest in that vaccine study?

The oversight and review process in vaccine studies that are used by the CDC makes the effective implementation of a corrupting bias very difficult. The pharma companies may have an incentive to cheat, but it is not easy and the consequences to their reputation of being caught cheating in a vaccine test are disastrous. There is a huge self-interest incentive for them not to cheat. They can make lots of money without cheating. Why would they risk all that by cheating?

Shouting 'conspiracy theory' is an intellectually lazy response that seeks to avoid having to address the points raised.

Shouting 'conflict of interest' is a lazy response.

You can only say that if you know that the testing rate is constant. But testing rate most probably isn't constant. For a start, many people only get tested when required by employer, school, university etc. So holidays such as Christmas will have a huge impact.

Hold on. You're not talking about vaccine trials, are you? That's where the effectiveness was established.

Anyway, even the WHO was eventually forced to admit that there was a problem with false positives.

How big a problem? What was the effect?

And a Swiss immunologist has reportedly said that asymptomatic infection (the cover story for false positives) is a myth.

How many other immunologists have said that asymptomatic infection is a myth? Or is this just more cherry-picking?

So they eventually reduced the number of cycles. From that point onwards, the COVID test data effectively had junk status.

..or, the adjustment of the number of cycles made the test more accurate.

And the phenomenon is evidently so widespread that journalists have written articles about 'the worst cold ever'.

Oh, well, if some journalists have written about 'the worst cold ever', then we know there must be something important to it, because journalists are never sensationalism seekers, are they?

And we are back to your intellectual laziness, of labelling anything you don't like as a 'conspiracy theory'. Why should I bother responding in good faith when you display such behaviour?

You are welcome not to respond if that is what you wish.

 

[CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN]

Sadly people are desperate for anything. Luckily in CA . I got the COVID-19 vaccinations. And plan to get the booster. With social distancing and wearing a mask. I dont see my self getting COVID-19. And we have better drugs for COVID -19 in the hospital.

 

[DamianWarS]

Faced with overflowing hospitals, the authorities in Indonesia decided to try Ivermectin. Based on the article date, the mass use of Ivermectin in Indonesia appears to have commenced around about the second or third week of July.

Indonesia jumps the gun on Ivermectin as Covid cure
Indonesia's overflowing hospitals are using the anti-parasite drug despite its unproven efficacy against Covid-19

Below are some of the Worldometer COVID statistics for Indonesia.

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Indonesia is not the best country to show reliable data on this. Most people don't get these drugs so a correlation to low COVID stats and Ivermectin can only be anecdotal.

Most people are vaccinated with sinovac like the rest of SE Asia but I don't see anyone praising sinovac. Not to mention the visible number like what we see in worldometer is going to be a lot lower than the actual number, probably as much as 3-4 times as low. You would have to ignore the numbers and look at a general trend but Asian cultures are also motivated to save face and are not known for their transparency especially when the latter makes them look bad and Indonesia falls into this type response. Socialism is still very strong in the country too left over by old regimes, unlike western countries Indonesia will be able to control their population a lot quicker without a lot of conflict so culture plays a large role to how decisions are carried out and their effectiveness which seems to be something western countries don't account for.

Did a drug do it or did forcing restriction do it? My point is from other vaccines, corrupted data and culture there is a lot more going on in the country than suggesting Ivermectin is responsible for the worldometer numbers turn around.