I've Tried to Believe But Can't. What Can I Do?

[JM]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQTW6nIPkPo

 

[BryanW92]

Did the audioblogger ever answer the guy's question, or was it all just designed to tear down Piper? I listened to the whole thing and did not get the answer to the question.

Obviously, the guy asking the question did not understand Reformed theology very well. He tried to believe, so he must have been given the capacity to believe by God, right?

So, why does he feel that he doesn't believe? That is the question that I am asking myself right now. If I was not regenerated, I would not care that I don't have the kind of belief that one would associate with one of the Elect. But, I do care, so my salvation must be assured.

If Piper's answer is so heinous as a "Neo-Cal" or as a borderline Arminian, then what is the correct, Reformed answer to the man's question?

 

[JM]

Did the audioblogger ever answer the guy's question, or was it all just designed to tear down Piper? I listened to the whole thing and did not get the answer to the question.

The video explains the inconsistent view held by Piper. The answer to the question should be pretty clear.

If Piper's answer is so heinous as a "Neo-Cal" or as a borderline Arminian, then what is the correct, Reformed answer to the man's question?

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]CHAPTER 14; OF SAVING FAITH[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 1. The grace of faith, whereby the elect are enabled to believe to the saving of their souls, is the work of the Spirit of Christ in their hearts,1 and is ordinarily wrought by the ministry of the Word;2 by which also, and by the administration of baptism and the Lord's supper, prayer, and other means appointed of God, it is increased and strengthened.3[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]1 2 Cor. 4:13; Eph. 2:8[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]2 Rom. 10:14,17[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]3 Luke 17:5; 1 Pet. 2:2; Acts 20:32[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]CHAPTER 15; OF REPENTANCE UNTO LIFE AND SALVATION[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]Paragraph 3. This saving repentance is an evangelical grace,4 whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, does, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrancy,5 praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavor, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.6[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]4 Zech. 12:10; Acts 11:18[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]5 Ezek. 36:31; 2 Cor. 7:11[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1]6 Ps. 119:6,128[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[BryanW92]

So, is the guy not saved and not one of the elect?

Or is the fact that he wants to believe proof that he is of the elect and he just thinks he doesn't believe?

This is a question that I wonder about because neither Arminian nor Calvinist theology explains my faith experience adequately.

I did not believe (for 30 years).

I did not seek to believe.

I received what can only be described as a strong conversion experience and suddenly believed. There was no free will involved, so the Arminian view doesn't work. I did not believe for most of the my life, so the Calvinist view doesn't work because it says that I was chosen before I was born.

 

[JM]

So, is the guy not saved and not one of the elect?

Or is the fact that he wants to believe proof that he is of the elect and he just thinks he doesn't believe?

We are not able to judge anothers salvation.

 

[BryanW92]

We are not able to judge anothers salvation.

so the only acceptable answer to the man's question is "I don't know."?

 

[hedrick]

I received what can only be described as a strong conversion experience and suddenly believed. There was no free will involved, so the Arminian view doesn't work. I did not believe for most of the my life, so the Calvinist view doesn't work because it says that I was chosen before I was born.

I don't follow this logic. Being chosen from the beginning doesn't mean that you always believed. It simply means that your conversion was part of God's plan for you from the beginning. It's the plan, not your faith, that was always there.

 

[BryanW92]

I don't follow this logic. Being chosen from the beginning doesn't mean that you always believed. It simply means that your conversion was part of God's plan for you from the beginning. It's the plan, not your faith, that was always there.

OK. So if faith comes from regeneration, was there a time when I was elect but not regenerated, or was I always elect and regenerated and just received faith late? I know that the faith was not free will, but the timeline for everything else is confusing.

 

[BryanW92]

I'm asking this for me and for another person. She wants to come to our church, but can't accept Reformed theology because her husband is not a believer. She is a strong believer. She clings to Wesleyan theology because it holds out hope that he will come to Jesus one day out of free will. She knows that Jesus is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but in her mind, accepting Calvinism would be admitting that her husband is not saved and never will be.

She grew up Presbyterian, so she knows our theology but she left when she was 18 and became a Methodist, so she knows theirs much better.

Yes, she is being irrational, but humans are like that.

 

[hedrick]

OK. So if faith comes from regeneration, was there a time when I was elect but not regenerated, or was I always elect and regenerated and just received faith late? I know that the faith was not free will, but the timeline for everything else is confusing.

As far as I can tell, regeneration is treated by Reformed theology as something that happens in your life. It's not the same thing as God's eternal election.

There have been arguments about whether regeneration and faith are separate. Sproul argues that regeneration precedes faith logically but not chronologically. That is, faith depends upon regeneration, but there's not a time when someone is regenerate but doesn't have faith, since regeneration is a description of God's act of producing faith in us. It appears that not all Calvinists agree with this. But still, I'm pretty sure that all see regeneration as occuring in time, and not being eternal in the way that being elect is.

Note by the way that Reformed writers use "regeneration" in two ways, which should not be confused. It is also sometimes used for the change in life that occurs in sanctification. That's not the same usage.

She clings to Wesleyan theology because it holds out hope that he will come to Jesus one day out of free will. She knows that Jesus is neither Calvinist nor Arminian, but in her mind, accepting Calvinism would be admitting that her husband is not saved and never will be.

Reformed theology certainly allows for someone to come to faith during their lives. We wouldn't attribute it to their free will, but to their will awakened by the Holy Spirit. It would be very odd if Calvinists ignored the fact that people come to faith at different times in their lives.

 

[JM]

OK. So if faith comes from regeneration, was there a time when I was elect but not regenerated, or was I always elect and regenerated and just received faith late? I know that the faith was not free will, but the timeline for everything else is confusing.

Election is not regeneration so yes, there is a time before the Holy Spirit renews us unto life that we do not believe...our election is based on God's grace and mercy, not foreseen faith.

 

[BryanW92]

It would be very odd if Calvinists ignored the fact that people come to faith at different times in their lives.

It wouldn't be too odd. Calvin lived in a time and place where people were Christians by default. Standing up and saying "I don't believe in your God" would have resulted in a lot worse things than the "So what?" that a modern American would get for saying the same thing.

 

[BryanW92]

As far as I can tell, regeneration is treated by Reformed theology as something that happens in your life. It's not the same thing as God's eternal election.

There have been arguments about whether regeneration and faith are separate. Sproul argues that regeneration precedes faith logically but not chronologically. That is, faith depends upon regeneration, but there's not a time when someone is regenerate but doesn't have faith, since regeneration is a description of God's act of producing faith in us. It appears that not all Calvinists agree with this. But still, I'm pretty sure that all see regeneration as occuring in time, and not being eternal in the way that being elect is.

Note by the way that Reformed writers use "regeneration" in two ways, which should not be confused. It is also sometimes used for the change in life that occurs in sanctification. That's not the same usage.

I seem to recall hearing Sproul say something about that. I'll go back and listen again.

 

[hedrick]

I seem to recall hearing Sproul say something about that. I'll go back and listen again.

The Order of Salvation | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

I'm not so convinced that it's always instantaneous though.

 

[BryanW92]

The Order of Salvation | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

I'm not so convinced that it's always instantaneous though.

Thanks. He explains things so well.

I'm looking forward to hearing Sproul in person (both of them) next month. I'll be working as an usher at the Ligonier conference in Orlando.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Thanks for sharing the video. It puts a fine point on why I don't like Piper's teaching/preaching. His pietism makes it impossible for him to fully grasp the doctrines of grace, from where I sit.

The commenter is likely correct. The poor soul with the comment and question is likely already a child of God who needs instruction. He is trying to hold on to Christ, but he has no idea that the Christ is holding on to him.

The lord is bringing this guy to the end of his rope, so that he will stop trusting in his faith and start trusting in Christ's work on his behalf, is my guess.