I've been working a YEC (mostly) forum for a while.

[Micaiah]

They are now convinced that evolution and the Bible cannot mix without extreme leniency to the interpritation. Personally, that's the way I feel also - which is probably one of the reasons I'm not a Christian.

I am pleased to be able to say I agree with you on this point. The two are like oil and water.

 

[Micaiah]

Yeah, I brutally murdered that. Well, at least it was a learning experiance.

It was a pitiful failure.

I don't see what I could have done more to make sure he wasn't. Perhaps I could even move to capitalizing the personal pronouns, and say it is out of respect (which it would be).

The lesson to take away is that many Christians have an unshakeable faith in what God says through His word the Bible, even when it contradicts the popular theories of the day.

 

[Arikay]

I completly disagree. They mix about as well as the bible and the heliocentric model. Which funny enough very few people ever question or think that its anti biblical, matter of fact, many creationists will fight against the bible saying anything about the geocentric model.

Creationists are to the geocentric model as theistic evolutionists are to the theory of creationism.

The irony in all of this is that creationist play right into the hands of militant atheists, who are never happier when they hear someone say that evolution and the bible cant mix.

I am pleased to be able to say I agree with you on this point. The two are like oil and water.

 

[christianbeginning]

I've been working a YEC (mostly) forum for a while.


I'm trying to get some of the YECs to start to see the truth of evolution. I don't want to make them think Christianity is wrong, but I've found it incredibly difficult to get them to accept a non-literal interpritation of Gensis on up. They pose questions about the liniage in the Bible from Adam up to Jesus, that why would they bother writing that if it wasn't supposed to be taken literally.

What just dissappoints me is I think I've lost them. They are now convinced that evolution and the Bible cannot mix without extreme leniency to the interpritation. Personally, that's the way I feel also - which is probably one of the reasons I'm not a Christian.

I was just hoping I could be a sort of 'miracle-worker' and cure some ignorance.

Obbi - the key to understanding the Old Testament is to realize that it has several levels:

Academically
1) historical - some of it
2) ethics
3) philosophy

Theologically
1) The stories about God and His works are not to be taken literally - they are used to show the nature of God and God's psychology.
-As a creator
-Personal
-Involved
-etc

Read the New Testament and pay attention to how Jesus uses the Old Testament and how He relates His mission and prophecy fulfillment to those Old Testament stories....they are all treated symbolically.

Taking the Old Testament literally is one of the biggest obstacles and weakest links in Christian doctrine. I would even venture to say that people who take certain stories literally:

1) Don't really understand the Bible or Christianity
2) Go against the traditions of the early Christians
3) Go against the methods of understanding employeed by Jesus himself - the founding figure of Christianity.

 

[Cantuar]

But then of course Arikay cannot actually understand the Bible since he's not saved. He doesn't see the secret meaning behind everything.

You mean you have to be a Gnostic to be saved? I mean, that is what all this "secret meaning" stuff amounts to, isn't it?

 

[Cantuar]

You've lost them in more than that. They have shut discussion of evolution down entirely. Even to the point that two topics I started Dec. 25th on just science have been deleted but the personal attack responses are still there. And now there is a sticky saying that there will be no more discussion of evolution on the board at all!

This mindset is really disturbing. They can stop people disagreeing with them in real time, but that doesn't alter the fact that the arguments against their positions still exist. They seem to think that if dissenters are silenced, the dissenting opinon itself is vanquished. Putting that together with the fact that this movement has a large political component, I think we can see what sort of goverment they have in mind for when they're the ones in power.

 

[Micaiah]

I completly disagree. They mix about as well as the bible and the heliocentric model. Which funny enough very few people ever question or think that its anti biblical, matter of fact, many creationists will fight against the bible saying anything about the geocentric model.

Creationists are to the geocentric model as theistic evolutionists are to the theory of creationism.

The irony in all of this is that creationist play right into the hands of militant atheists, who are never happier when they hear someone say that evolution and the bible cant mix.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were an athiest. You are free to reject what God says, but the irony of an athiest telling me what I should believe as a Christian sticks in the throat.

I hope that one day something said on this forum will penetrate your heart, and you will come to know the Creator personally.

 

[Arikay]

Yep im an atheist, but when it comes to this area, ive been taught by christians. So allthough its an atheist saying them, they are christian words/ideas.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were an athiest. You are free to reject what God says, but the irony of an athiest telling me what I should believe as a Christian sticks in the throat.

I hope that one day something said on this forum will penetrate your heart, and you will come to know the Creator personally.

 

[ForeRunner]

I'm an Atheist, and I have probably had more theological and philosophical training than quite a few christians (and, it seems, a lot of creationists).

Many people have the ability to accept certain pretenses for the sake of arguement. For example, Arikay explained what he did as if he were a Christian. There is nothing wrong with that, if you disagree attack his ideas, not him. Since you can't attack his ideas, you attack him. Typical.

Come back when you get some training in the ability to think critically, there is something to be said about using the brain that God gave you.

 

[lucaspa]

The lesson to take away is that many Christians have an unshakeable faith in what God says through His word the Bible, even when it contradicts the popular theories of the day.

What they have is an unshakeable faith in what they think God says thru the Bible. Even though Jesus tells us the Bible is sometimes wrong.

What you miss is that the OT is set in the "popular theory" of the day -- Babylonian science. Instead of looking for the theological messages the Bible meant to convey, you have mistaken the popular theory of that day as the final word on how God created.

 

[lucaspa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought you were an athiest. You are free to reject what God says, but the irony of an athiest telling me what I should believe as a Christian sticks in the throat.

I hope that one day something said on this forum will penetrate your heart, and you will come to know the Creator personally.

Micaiah, did you simply not read this?

Creationists are to the geocentric model as theistic evolutionists are to the theory of creationism.

The irony in all of this is that creationist play right into the hands of militant atheists, who are never happier when they hear someone say that evolution and the bible cant mix.

Arikay is trying to tell you that creationism is helping militant atheists destroy Christianity! Don't you get it? Arikay is an atheist, yes, but he is also dedicated to truth and does not want to see Christianity destroyed when it might possibly be right!

He is not telling you what to believe, but pointing out the inconsistencies in creationism (accepting extrabiblical evidence and rejecting literalism in some areas but not others) and setting Christianity up to let militant atheists falsify it.

You, OTOH, are tying God's existence to your fallible human interpretation of the Bible and the ability to dictate to God how He had to create. Christianity needs more friends like Arikay and, quite frankly, with "friends" like creationists, doesn't need any enemies.

Put another way, creationism is undercover atheism working from within Christianity to destroy it.

 

[lucaspa]

Yeah, I brutally murdered that. Well, at least it was a learning experiance.

It was a pitiful failure.

I think you lost it when you called Ikester a "*******". You handed them the perfect excuse at that point. Evangel is every bit a personal attack person, but you can't respond in kind. Try to keep your personal feelings about individuals out of your posts.

I don't see what I could have done more to make sure he wasn't. Perhaps I could even move to capitalizing the personal pronouns, and say it is out of respect (which it would be).

Yes, capitalizing the "He" would be good. As you noted, it is respect for the beliefs of others, and their conventions. When discussing beliefs with people on their turf, adopt their customs as much as possible without compromising your own core beliefs. Since you are agnostic, you should not have found adhering to most theistic language difficult.

 

[lucaspa]

This mindset is really disturbing. They can stop people disagreeing with them in real time, but that doesn't alter the fact that the arguments against their positions still exist. They seem to think that if dissenters are silenced, the dissenting opinon itself is vanquished. Putting that together with the fact that this movement has a large political component, I think we can see what sort of goverment they have in mind for when they're the ones in power.

Exactly. This is what makes creationism scary. Of course, I think militant atheists will put together the same type of government! Science can only survive if the reasonable people -- theists, agnostics, and atheists -- unite and drive back the fanatics at either extreme.

 

[Captain Jackson]

I'm just going to say that the terms used to describe people (Creationists, YEC, OEC, theistic evolutionist, ect) are bothering me. I think they overgeneralizations, and make it very easy to sterotype people according to their views.

 

[lucaspa]

Obbi - the key to understanding the Old Testament is to realize that it has several levels:

Academically
1) historical - some of it
2) ethics
3) philosophy

Theologically
1) The stories about God and His works are not to be taken literally - they are used to show the nature of God and God's psychology.
-As a creator
-Personal
-Involved
-etc

Read the New Testament and pay attention to how Jesus uses the Old Testament and how He relates His mission and prophecy fulfillment to those Old Testament stories....they are all treated symbolically.

Taking the Old Testament literally is one of the biggest obstacles and weakest links in Christian doctrine. I would even venture to say that people who take certain stories literally:

1) Don't really understand the Bible or Christianity
2) Go against the traditions of the early Christians
3) Go against the methods of understanding employeed by Jesus himself - the founding figure of Christianity.

Christianbeginning, welcome to the evil theistic evolution and non-literal Genesis conspiracy! (We have to get a snappier name for this ) Check the posts by Vance, Mike Flynn, Karl, seebs, notto, myself, etc. and you will find that we have all reached the same conclusions you have.

The only difference is that I have taken your conclusions about creationists further to the point that I submit they have made a false idol out of their literal interpretation and worship it instead of God.

 

[Arikay]

"Arikay is an atheist, yes, but he is also dedicated to truth and does not want to see Christianity destroyed when it might possibly be right!"

Yep, not to mention If christianity is to be destroyed it needs to be from something truthfull, creationism is definetly not that. Same goes for any religion, even my own. If its right, then I dont want to see it destroyed, and if its not right, ive seen it do enough good (when taken in appropriate non fundementalist doses) that I would want it to be destroyed. And unfortunatly to atheists or even non christians, creationism turns christianity into a laughing matter and a false religion.

Micaiah, did you simply not read this?

Creationists are to the geocentric model as theistic evolutionists are to the theory of creationism.

The irony in all of this is that creationist play right into the hands of militant atheists, who are never happier when they hear someone say that evolution and the bible cant mix.

Arikay is trying to tell you that creationism is helping militant atheists destroy Christianity! Don't you get it? Arikay is an atheist, yes, but he is also dedicated to truth and does not want to see Christianity destroyed when it might possibly be right!

He is not telling you what to believe, but pointing out the inconsistencies in creationism (accepting extrabiblical evidence and rejecting literalism in some areas but not others) and setting Christianity up to let militant atheists falsify it.

You, OTOH, are tying God's existence to your fallible human interpretation of the Bible and the ability to dictate to God how He had to create. Christianity needs more friends like Arikay and, quite frankly, with "friends" like creationists, doesn't need any enemies.

Put another way, creationism is undercover atheism working from within Christianity to destroy it.

 

[ObbiQuiet]

You mean you have to be a Gnostic to be saved? I mean, that is what all this "secret meaning" stuff amounts to, isn't it?

I was sarcastic.

 

[ObbiQuiet]

I saw ikester showed up at close to four in the morning - I was tiered and grumpy, I was upset, I was frustrated, and I blew up. I was a fool, and I'm kicking myself for it.

Well, I can only hope they'll eventually accept evolution later in life.

 

[Arikay]

But it does bring up a good point. The "you cant read the bible correctly till you have the holyspirit" is a rather gnostic idea, and most early christians were against the gnostic.

I was sarcastic.

 

[Micaiah]

Micaiah, did you simply not read this?

Creationists are to the geocentric model as theistic evolutionists are to the theory of creationism.

The irony in all of this is that creationist play right into the hands of militant atheists, who are never happier when they hear someone say that evolution and the bible cant mix.

Arikay is trying to tell you that creationism is helping militant atheists destroy Christianity! Don't you get it? Arikay is an atheist, yes, but he is also dedicated to truth and does not want to see Christianity destroyed when it might possibly be right!

He is not telling you what to believe, but pointing out the inconsistencies in creationism (accepting extrabiblical evidence and rejecting literalism in some areas but not others) and setting Christianity up to let militant atheists falsify it.

You, OTOH, are tying God's existence to your fallible human interpretation of the Bible and the ability to dictate to God how He had to create. Christianity needs more friends like Arikay and, quite frankly, with "friends" like creationists, doesn't need any enemies.

Put another way, creationism is undercover atheism working from within Christianity to destroy it.

You arguments are a gross distortion of the truth. The sad thing is I really think you fail to recognise this.