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It's so confusing....

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AnneSally

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I disagree. At least, I'd say that this oversimplifies. Of course, you had slaves too, and the fact was that they were not considered to be Englishmen with any rights at all.



Sure, but the English didn't try to claim that they had a classless society and that all men were created equal. They had slaves, and there was a King and classes of nobility. Nothing contradictory about it.



But among subjects of the crown, and later as citizens of the Republic, we abhorred titles, inherited political positions, strictly stratified social groups based upon heritage, etc. I can certainly stand behind this with evidence. At the same time, I have already allowed that while we said that men are equal in the eyes of the law--a concept that the King and Parliament would not agree to and which hastened the Revolution--they are naturally unequal. They do have different abilities, meaning that social classes did develop. However, it can fairly be said that these were different from the meritless and very rigid situation of European classes.


But this is wrong. How can you say that all men are equal in the eyes of the law when you had laws specifically designed to ensure that they weren't? America was built upon slavery and an entire race of people were denied the vote. So how is it that all men were equal in the eyes of the law. Blacks had no rights, nvm being equal in the eyes of the law.



His power was little restrained in law. Of course there was Magna
Deified? LOL I sense that we've passed beyond polite conversation and trying to explain things, and entered into something else.




LOL, not really, that's how it seems sometimes from the outside....
 
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AnneSally

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It was a turn of phrase that I thought you wouldn't misunderstand, AnneSally. But even if we did produce "nobility" in some sense, they were--and you have to admit that I made this point--men who could rise from obscurity and achieve status because of their efforts and talents, unlike the useless aristocrats who merely took their places automatically.


Sorry, but I disagree that aristocrats were/are useless.
 
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Simon_Templar

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Also, another point.

The Bush administration was an outgrowth of what in american politics has been called the NeoCon movement, sometimes also referred to as Compassionate Conservatism. This really is a euphamism for a section of the republican party that has abandoned the traditional economic views of conservatism in america as well as traditional conservative views of government intervention, and taken up more leftist views on spending and on government intervening to solve social problems.

This is why Bush, to many traditional conservatives, has appeared as basically a centrist or even a liberal in terms of his spending. Essentially because he is.
 
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AnneSally

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It for the most part does break down along left wing and right wing lines. The reason that most Europeans have difficulty understanding this is because most europeans have been raised in a socialist climate, and a slightly more collectivist social climate. By collectivist there I don't mean in the economic communist sense, although that is probably partially true as well. I mean that Europeans are more community centric than Americans who are generally more individual centric.


Yes, that's probably an accurate observation....


This is basically an issue of acclimatization.


Well, probably a marked cultural difference.....
 
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Secundulus

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OK, but did those black slave owners have the vote? Were they allowed to hold political office?
Between 1776 and 1865 the voting situation was inconsistant and differed by State. In many places Free Black Male Landowners did have the right to vote.
 
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Secundulus

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the black slave owners were only in Louisiana, Louisiana had a lot of french, creole and spanish peoples. It is also mostly Catholic (not sayiny that being Catholic made it so blacks could own slaves, just to show that it was differant from most of the American South)
Not true. Black slaveowners were throughout the South. Here are the statistics for South Carolina http://www.uwec.edu/Geography/Ivogeler/w188/south/charles/charles3.htm

By 1800, one third of colored heads of households in Charleston recorded slave property. Between 1820-1840, the percentage increased to 75 percent.
 
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WalksWithChrist

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Secundulus

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SRSLY?
Wow. I never knew that.
Most people don't know that a large number of Confederate Soldiers were also black.

An article by Walter Williams. http://www.lizmichael.com/blkconfd.htm

DURING OUR WAR OF 1861, ex-slave Frederick Douglass observed, "There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down ... and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government."

. . . eyewitness accounts of the Antietam campaign of "armed blacks in rebel columns bearing rifles, sabers, and knives and carrying knapsacks and haversacks." After the Battle of Seven Pines in June 1862, Union soldiers said that "two black Confederate regiments not only fought but showed no mercy to the Yankee dead or wounded whom they mutilated, murdered and robbed."
 
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Rhamiel

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Well, I certainly know of some aristocrats who, unquestionably, were useless. Yes indeed.
I knew of some generals who were useless
i knew of some farmers who were useless
i knew of some pastors who were useless
i knew of some policemen who were useless

there are bad apples in every group
 
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WalksWithChrist

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Most people don't know that a large number of Confederate Soldiers were also black.

An article by Walter Williams. http://www.lizmichael.com/blkconfd.htm

DURING OUR WAR OF 1861, ex-slave Frederick Douglass observed, "There are at the present moment, many colored men in the Confederate Army doing duty not only as cooks, servants and laborers, but as real soldiers, having muskets on their shoulders and bullets in their pockets, ready to shoot down ... and do all that soldiers may do to destroy the Federal government."

. . . eyewitness accounts of the Antietam campaign of "armed blacks in rebel columns bearing rifles, sabers, and knives and carrying knapsacks and haversacks." After the Battle of Seven Pines in June 1862, Union soldiers said that "two black Confederate regiments not only fought but showed no mercy to the Yankee dead or wounded whom they mutilated, murdered and robbed."
Ok, that I knew!

I'm a big fan of the Tuskegee Airmen, so this is good stuff.
:thumbsup:
 
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Albion

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I knew of some generals who were useless
i knew of some farmers who were useless
i knew of some pastors who were useless
i knew of some policemen who were useless

there are bad apples in every group

Good! Then you DO know of useless aristocrats. Welcome.

Anyway, I for one am not interested in entertaining any more America-baiting, whether it's disguised as "It's so confusing" or something else.
 
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CADude12

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I think it would be far easier to list the "useless" aristocrats, than to list those who were usefull, if only we knew all of their names. We know the "useful" ones because they made a name for themselves.

Our new aristocrats are a political class - from the dreamers to the corrupt and greedy. Not much different from all those who have gone before, from Lucius Junius Brutus, to the Gracchi, to our own Lincoln, even Obama. Public service has a bad name from those (who are not a few) who corrupt the process.
 
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Cris413

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Wow, this is great, thanks for the synopsis. I'm not a political conservative and yet I don't entirely agree with liberal politics either. I'm kinda stuck out in the cold when it comes to American politics because I don't agree with certain thngs on either side. And yeah, America is definitely more right-wing than I'm used to and I doubt very much that Democrats are as left-wing according to global standards, I once heard that they are more to the right than our right-wing.:eek:

You said that in this forum that conservative applies in a Christian sense but I thought it meant political because many in here are Republicans and from reading the posts I find a lot of them filter Christianity through a political lens. I was starting to think this forum was a venue for politics not Christianity or maybe even a politicised form of Christianity which I find dsconcerting.

What you have described as a conservative Christian is what I believe but when it comes to human politics I wouldn't be Republican so I find the whole American preoccupation of merging politics and religion weird.....:confused:

Hi AnneSally...:wave:

I haven't read through the thread yet...but I did want to comment on this post...

...I also think BereanTodd presented a pretty good synopsis...:)

I also agree that voting in this two party system is basically voting for the lesser of two evils...I would prolly vote 3rd party if I thought it wouldn't be a wasted a vote...:sorry:

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage as to the "norm" in this forum...I just came in a few weeks or so ago...and this being an election year...politics is quite the hot topic...well...more so than usual.

Personally...I can say that my faith shapes my politics...not visa versa...

My experience has been that the more I grew in the Lord...the less liberal my world view became...and my politics kinda went hand in hand with that.

I can only handle sooooo much politics...which is why I've take a bit of a breather from the forum...but I saw your thread...and I'm always interested in what you have to say...:)

I've said pretty much all I have to share...and the bottom line is...God is in control...and the world will move according to His perfect plan and no matter what political leaders are put in office...

...prophesy will be fulfilled...and we rest peacefully in the blessed assurance of Christ Jesus.

We watch and pray and wait patiently on Him...and in the meantime...we be the best citizens we can be...but more importantly...faithful servants...of the Lord.

I've only been "conservative" for about 10 years or so...and to me that means holding on to traditional morals and values...politically and Scripturally...

I have no idea what liberalism is these days...:confused:...but it seems to moving away at a rapid pace from the morals, values and ideals I embraced not all that long ago.
 
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Simon_Templar

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That's what I suspected. Landowners. That was a class.

There was actually a specific reason that the founders only allowed land owners to vote, and it had very little to do with class as we think of it today.

They recognized a danger, made plain in the classical world, that we for the most part have entirely forgotten. In classical democracies in almost every case the democracy was destroyed eventually by itself. They way almost all of them came to an end was that clever politicians figured out that if they could control the people's will they could control the state and essentially do what they want.
They also figured out that the "mob" the masses of common people are very easy to control. You simply indulge their common desires and through doing so, you can essentially shape the government according to your own will.

The desires of the common masses of people have rarely varied down through history because there is a sort of common denominator that they always devolve to. Unless there is some outside force that acts upon them to shape their desires in a different direction, they almost always revolve around comfort and entertainment.

Further, it has been the universal tendancy of virtually all peoples that they are willing to get those things at the expence of others who have them. IE those who percieve themselves as the 'have nots' are usually willing to get what they want at the expense of those they perceive to be the 'haves'

These are principles which were demonstrated numerous times in the democracies of the ancient world and they are principles that the founders of America were very familiar with.

They founded the US specifically on the idea that anyone who pays taxes has a right to be represented in the government. However, at that time, only land owners paid taxes.
Further, land owners were the only people who really had a direct stake in many of the decisions the government made, like taxation, spending policy, trade policy etc.

They further were convinced that allowing those who had less to lose in material terms a controling interest in government was a recipe for the destruction of the very freedom that they were intending to create.

It should not be believed for one moment that they therefore created a aristocracy or an oligarchy in which the rich landowners ruled for their own interests.

They founded a system, the bedrock foundation of which was the inalienable individual rights of all mankind, and equal application of the law.

Thus even if the rich landowners wanted to impose different standards on the poor, or take away the rights of the poor etc, they could not do so because the most fundamental principle of our system is that everyone is subject to the same law and everyone has the same inalienable rights.
Thus to do something negative to the poor they would have to do it to themselves as well.

Looking at it from this perspective it makes sense that you would only give the privilage of voting to those who have something tangible to lose by giving the government too much power.

The poorer people have their freedom to lose but history has shown time and again that they are often willing, or possibly simply not aware enough of the dangers involved, to give government the power to take away their freedom in exchange for temporary material gain. (usually in the form of comfort and entertainment, sometimes for 'safety').

The US is one of the few examples in history where that, by and large, has not been the case, because of our strong cultural ethic of personal liberty. However, it has become more and more true of our people as well as dependance on government has grown.

On the other hand, the best interest of land owners was to keep the government out of their business as much as possible and keep the government limited to its central tasks.
So, giving the vote to those who don't pay taxes and to those who essentially either have no direct stake, or have a more compelling personal interest than freedom, or the well being of the republic is at best dangerous, at worst a gaurentee of the collapse of the free republic.
Giving the vote to those who have a direct stake, and have their own personal interest in line with the best interests of the people as a whole (ie personal freedom and the limitation of government from undue involvement in people's private affairs) is the best way to keep the government in line and stop the ambitions of power hungry would be rulers.
 
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AnneSally

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Good! Then you DO know of useless aristocrats. Welcome.

Anyway, I for one am not interested in entertaining any more America-baiting, whether it's disguised as "It's so confusing" or something else.


Oh whatever! I'm entitled to give my opinion, and there's nothing "disguised" in what I said. I seriously am confused by American views of left and right because I don't have an American-centric world-view, and interestingly enough, neither does the rest of the world. It's not my fault you are interpreting that as "America-baiting" because you don't agree with me. Equally, I don't agree with your broad brush-stroke that aristocrats are useless which I interpret as your disdain of our British system just because America decided to break with it. So I'm not interested in entertaining your disdain for our aristocratic heritage in trying to polarise the British as "wrong" and America by comparison as "right." I think you are wrong, so there.:p
 
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