It's been done, but not by me: FREE WILL

[TeddyKGB]

But there arent really any unmoved movers, besides the gods/god.

Er, says who?

Everything in nature has a cause somewhere.

Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism. In any case, the universe itself is not something "in nature."

 

[inchristalone221]

Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism.

But quantum fluctuations occur only in quantum vacuums, which are essentially seas of particle energy. In a universe that actually contains nothing, there is no reason to believe a quantum event could take place.

 

[DhikrAllah]

1. All events have causes

The only point which I see as contendable is number one.IN order for this to be a solid claim, it must be true. In order for this to be the case, there must not be uncaused events. The obviouse solution would seem to be to go to quantam mechanics

Yup! But even this doesn’t help when it comes to free will because these uncaused events occur randomly and spontaneously. As such, they can never support ’free will’. I’ll use an analogy to illustrate this:

Imagine if you suffered from a medical disorder whereby your arm would, at random intervals, suddenly shoot out in front of you (or to your side, its direction bears no relevance). This has a cause: your medical condition. Now imagine if the same thing happened but you suffered NO medical condition. Your arm simply, for no reason whatsoever, shot up uncontrolled. Would you call that an act of free will? No: random spontaneity does not and cannot support free will.

So looking to the quantum world for a ’solution’, I submit, represents a fruitless search.

 

[TeddyKGB]

But quantum fluctuations occur only in quantum vacuums, which are essentially seas of particle energy. In a universe that actually contains nothing, there is no reason to believe a quantum event could take place.

I fear terminology will defeat us here. By definition, a universe does not contain "nothing."

 

[inchristalone221]

I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase. In a reality where nothing exists, a quantum fluctuation cannot occur, as such things are a function of a quantum vacuum (a part of our physical universe).

 

[EverlastingMan]

Does it? It seems quantum mechanics is beginning to question that truism. In any case, the universe itself is not something "in nature."

I did say my physic was lacking... But my thoughts are expressed in christsalone221's. and your right the universe is nature

 

[Ioinc]

I agree that there is no such thing as free will, but I am not a "hard determinist." I am a compatibilist in that I think we are responsible for the choices we freely make, but that our free decisions are pre-determined by a myriad of factors.

Now think about this:

1. All effects are determined by their causes.
2. All causes are determined by the first cause (God).
----------------------------------------------------
3. All effects are determined by God.

Quite the argument for total sovereignty (+1 for reformed nutcases like me).

In HIM we live and move and have our being.
--the apostle Paul speaking to an unregenerate audience about the power and sovereignty of God

Does this also not mean that God caused all the evil things to happen .... deliberatly.

He caused the original sin.... he caused all murder, all rape, all abuse?

 

[inchristalone221]

Does this also not mean that God caused all the evil things to happen .... deliberatly.

He caused the original sin.... he caused all murder, all rape, all abuse?

The beginning of a very interesting and deep discussion. My short answer is: yes, but he is not ethically responsible for those actions.

 

[TeddyKGB]

I stand corrected. Allow me to rephrase. In a reality where nothing exists, a quantum fluctuation cannot occur, as such things are a function of a quantum vacuum (a part of our physical universe).

Is a "reality" wherein nothing exists a reality at all? I would say no. I submit that "nothing" never can be described by, or explained by, or included in anything other than "nothing." Only "nothing" can account for nothing.

 

[Ioinc]

The beginning of a very interesting and deep discussion. My short answer is: yes, but he is not ethically responsible for those actions.

reminds me of something my father used to tell me... a life lesson

You can delegate authority
You can not delegate responsibility

If he started it, knowingly, deliberately then ultimately he is responsible

.

 

[EverlastingMan]

He is the first mover. Not the mover behind everything. If he is then we have no will.

 

[inchristalone221]

He is the first mover. Not the mover behind everything. If he is then we have no will.

The issue rests in one's understanding of freedom of the will. If by free will you mean the power to make a decision beyond God's power to determine, then we have no free will. If you mean the ability to freely choose the outcome predetermined for us, then we do have free will. We must not attempt to understand God's order from the standpoint of free will, we must strive to understand free will from the standpoint of God's order.

 

[EverlastingMan]

"Outcome predetermined" that would of course be the opposite of free will if god exists in the christian sense then he knows what we will do but has not predetermined it nor is it ever predetermined we determine it moment by moment.