Its a bribe. Its a threat.

[shinbits]

Also, we could not have been created "perfect"- something that is "perfect" cannot degrade in any way.

Adam was made perfect. He chose to make himself imperfect.

 

[Mistadobalina]

The very fact that he became imperfect shows that he was not perfect to begin with. That's just the way I see it.

 

[shinbits]

The very fact that he became imperfect shows that he was not perfect to begin with. That's just the way I see it.

If Adam didn't have the ability to chose to become imperfect,then he wouldn't be have free will.

He'd be a robot.

 

[Mistadobalina]

Even so, he would not be, as an entity, perfect.

On the free will thing, I believe we are who we are on account of circumstances outside of our control. Someone who is lazy is so because of their ancestry, upbringing, etc. There is no such thing as free will, as the Universe is completely linear (i.e., nothing is random).

 

[Martinez]

It is not a choice. No one would choose to go to Hell. Why do people keep saying this? If I knew there was a god, that it was good, that it loved everyone, etc, etc, upon death I would not mind being in its presence. If it was real, if I had sinned against it and it was willing to forgive me, swell. I can admit to mistakes. Most people wouldn't mind if they found out there was a god...who could complain about an eternity with all your loved ones and a deity who cared for you? If god is omnipotent, then it knows what it would take for each and every person to come to him(her?it?). God has an eternity at its disposal and is allpowerful, so why would God fail in bringing all people into its presence, if that is what it really wanted?

Your abosolultely right savvy!
it's about as much of a choice as,
"Give me your wallet or I'll blow your friggin head off!"

what a crock!


I'm so glad I don't serve a God like that!

 

[morningstar2651]

If Adam didn't have the ability to chose to become imperfect,then he wouldn't be have free will.

He'd be a robot.

In what way was Adam imperfect?

 

[Martinez]

It is also a threat. Do not do this, or else... We want to withhold people from a certain action. There are several ways to do this, of which threatening is one.


But why should I worship God? What purpose is in that, other than an egotrip for God? And what good is this worshipping, if it is done out of fear of being punished?

Exactly right!

God does not want people to worship him out of fear!
He wants us to love Him, just like we want to be loved.

can love be obtained down the barrel of a gun?

 

[shinbits]

In what way was Adam imperfect?

I never said Adam was imperfect. I said he chose to become imperfect, by way of his disobedience.

Then he was imperfect, because he was a sinner.

 

[Species8472]

According to the gospel, those that don't have the gospel will me mete with the same measure they measure with--the same as a Christian. Because of Moses(who spoke of christ) we know what sin is--in obscurity; but since Christ was entered into the world--sin became more apparent through what Christ speaks of (and he still affirms the laws of moses), however, instead of the stony heart of the ten commandments, Christ wanted to give man a fleshy heart--filled with the fire of his love; hence, his sacred heart.
All go to heaven, but must pass through fire first--to get a taste of hell. Remember, what he said, collect all the crumbs of the bread so that none may be lost--Christ is very compassionate even to those who have gravely sinned; but those murderers and what have you, need to be torn apart by demons(in hell) first before they see the light of Christ and pray to him; so that they may be saved.
But I tell you--god does not put fear into man; for the fear of god is the devil; that serves him and is loved by him regardless of what you may believe.
Luke: 6
27": But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
"28": Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
And why not love the devil as an enemy should be loved.
Everything that happens is gods' will. If Lucifer fell, it was because of gods' plan; and Lucifer was god's favorite angel--and he still is. Because all the angels serve god whether they Will or not.
Like God said, we either all live in hell for eternity or all live in heaven--so that none of the bread may be lost.
We tend to put all the blame of our sin upon the devils shoulders when Christ said, Let me be your scapegoat--to paraphrase,"don't blame the devil for your mistakes."
I seen the devil once as an angel in the sky--who tempted me to gods' glory. There was not a blemish on his soul. His spirit was crystal clear--like translucent water or air-element. Whose light shined from within itself.

If I prayed to my god for worldly things.
I think I prayed to the devil.​

The devil loves the things of man. The good things which he only wishes to take away so that you may become closer to god and cherish that which is in heaven; where moth nor rust doth corrupt. The devil brings you closer to god and you hate him for it. The devil is the fear of god. If you can't bless your enemies as I bless them than what love of god do you have in you. That's not a question--that is a reflection.
Take a look in the mirror every once in awhile. Am I going to Hell or Heaven--ask yourself first. You know what sin is. So do not sin. everyone knows what sin is because god brought sin into the world--to open your eyes.
Do you see?
In greek mythology, lucifer stole the flame of enlightenment against zeus' authority in order to give unto mankind. Sound familiar? a snake and a tree.
Turn that stony heart of yours into flesh; for the fires of hell purify the human soul; and the waters of heaven claim the soul.
Pour out your soul unto death and you will not taste death(hell). Thats all I got to say about that, except for--that life is poetry in motion, beauty in motion. Live it!
​

 

[Clarphimous]

Adam was made perfect. He chose to make himself imperfect.

But I'm not Adam... I'm just some guy that was descended from him and handed down the burden. Mistadobalina's point still stands.

"Looking at it another way, what have we done to deserve being created, and forced to endure the cruel world? It's almost as if we're being put on trial for no reason, and the world IS that trial."

 

[ForumGuy]

On the free will thing, I believe we are who we are on account of circumstances outside of our control. Someone who is lazy is so because of their ancestry, upbringing, etc. There is no such thing as free will, as the Universe is completely linear (i.e., nothing is random).

No. Just no.
Two twins from the same family raised in the same way will have very different personalitys. What cause that? Man can change his basic nature, so yeah no.
You experince the reality of making choices everyday. Its not an illiusion. God is not holding a gun to my head and making me type this. Look i just used a smiley for no reason, why? Because I can.
Just because God can see all possibiltys, doesn't mean he forces people into one.
If you watching a cartoon and you know whats going to happen from the first minute, did you force the characthers to act that way?

But onto the Hell thing, yeah I do admit this bothers me. Although I think on some level humans do choose, since you see people living in destructive ways, even when it leads to a sub optimal and unfufilled existence. If you look at the 7 Sins, you will see that they are all self destructive, even simply from a worldy point of view, where as living virtuously not only makes the person happy, but spreads happyness arund them.
I admit this isn't the best explanation, truth be told I don't think any Christan has a perfect explanation for this. One part of Faith is accepting things at face vaue (but not to the point where your a sheep, obviously).
As for other Relgions, its genereally believe by most Catholics, including myself that those of other Relgions who have tried to life a good life will not go to Hell. Frankly no one knows what happens to them, but many believe in a second Baptism

 

[Clarphimous]

"Two twins from the same family raised in the same way will have very different personalitys. What cause that? Man can change his basic nature, so yeah no."

Well, one thing I've heard is that identical twins can be exposed to different chemicals while in the womb. Thus, identical twins are not completely identical biologically. Another thing is that while the environment of the twins may be the same, the experience within that environment is not the same for each.

"You experince the reality of making choices everyday. Its not an illiusion."

Or it could just be an experience of chemicals produced in the brain while it makes a decision.

"God is not holding a gun to my head and making me type this. Look i just used a smiley for no reason, why? Because I can."

It would seem you used the smiley to prove your point.

"Just because God can see all possibiltys, doesn't mean he forces people into one.
If you watching a cartoon and you know whats going to happen from the first minute, did you force the characthers to act that way?"

Can the cartoons do anything else than what they were drawn to do? Nope. That's how things are like in a predetermined world.

I don't advocate predetermination over free will. I just don't think you can prove free will that easily.

 

[Species8472]

How do you know that you haven't returned to the garden of eden and as metaphor-Adam, means first man; and eve, is like christmas eve.
The bible consists of poetry and poetry is meant to be interpretted. The jews believe(d) that the poetic genius (or prophet) is meant to be worshipped as is--every religion is the reception of the poetic genius according to the genius that propagated the religion.
Words are illusive--as the jews gave deified properties to such things as cities, mountains, animals, what have you...
I think adams' seed still strives as we are all called by mankind; but when shall we become womankind; as woman was taken from man.
Am I my sisters keeper?
A derivative of woman is called womb-of-man, hence woman.
Instead of taking woman and turning her into man(as referenced in the gospel of thomas). Give me man and I'll turn him into woman.
Jesus said, if adam had been worthy he would not have tasted death.
Why not evolve(become worthy) and turn mankind into womankind?

 

[Mistadobalina]

Let me clarify, ForumGuy. Let's say someone kills someone. Tragic event, indeed. Why punish this (sorry about the assumption, but) man? He is what he is because his brain is set up that way. Assuming universal linearity is true, his choices are entirely predictable.

Those 2 twins you mention are different because they've each had a different life experience. And that experience was outside of their control. Perhaps using this phrase is misleading- I believe there is no such thing as "control".

You might think my belief in such things makes my own life feel meaningless. Which it does, but only whilst I'm actually thinking about it. So I get by.

 

[ForumGuy]

Let me clarify, ForumGuy. Let's say someone kills someone. Tragic event, indeed. Why punish this (sorry about the assumption, but) man? He is what he is because his brain is set up that way. Assuming universal linearity is true, his choices are entirely predictable.

Those 2 twins you mention are different because they've each had a different life experience. And that experience was outside of their control. Perhaps using this phrase is misleading- I believe there is no such thing as "control".

You might think my belief in such things makes my own life feel meaningless. Which it does, but only whilst I'm actually thinking about it. So I get by.

I have experinced by own temper flaring, and me pulling back at the lat minute (often through God's guidance), their IS such thing as control. I am NOT being driven by chemicals to type this post.
Even if one loses control and does something, they can atone for it. God sees all our actions in advance, but he chooses not to interfere

 

[xAtheistx]

Can the cartoons do anything else than what they were drawn to do? Nope. That's how things are like in a predetermined world.

Quite obviously, you've never seen Toy Story.

 

[Mistadobalina]

I have experinced by own temper flaring, and me pulling back at the lat minute (often through God's guidance), their IS such thing as control. I am NOT being driven by chemicals to type this post.
Even if one loses control and does something, they can atone for it. God sees all our actions in advance, but he chooses not to interfere

I believe you are being driven by chemicals to make that post, you believe I am not in making my posts. When you think about it, what we're discussing here is at an even more fundamental level than the existence of a god.

I believe the incidents of your temper flaring were bound to happen, and you were bound not to go overboard. I am a firm believer in "fate", but I don't like using the word as it implies direction from some kind of entity.

 

[xAtheistx]

I am a firm believer in "fate", but I don't like using the word as it implies direction from some kind of entity.

I don't think fate has those implications... that's more like "the fates." Honestly, when I think of fate, I think of a timeline, with a bunch of notes scribbled as to what happens when. When I think of "the fates" I think of three old ladies weaving a blanket... I think that was from some old cartoon, but I can't recall.

 

[meebs]

If Adam didn't have the ability to chose to become imperfect,then he wouldn't be have free will.

He'd be a robot.

How do you know we are NOT robots?

Acting out the way we were programmed?

 

[Martinez]

How do you know we are NOT robots?

Acting out the way we were programmed?

sorry, but that just does not compute!