Are we really good people if God has to threaten us to be christians and love him? I mean he's promises to burn those that don't follow him. But if we "choose" to love him we go to heaven.
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Its a bribe. Its a threat.
- Thread starter Matty1919
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Yusuf Evans
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The Lord doesn't threaten you with eternal damnation. He offers you a choice. Just like you have a choice in life to follow the law, or break that law, there are consequences for our actions within this world. The Lord does not want to send anyone away from him, people choose to do so. He is not forcing anything on you, he is offering it to you. It's a matter of us actually wanting to accept his gift, vice it being thrust upon us.
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savvy
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christianmarine said:
It is not a choice. No one would choose to go to Hell. Why do people keep saying this? If I knew there was a god, that it was good, that it loved everyone, etc, etc, upon death I would not mind being in its presence. If it was real, if I had sinned against it and it was willing to forgive me, swell. I can admit to mistakes. Most people wouldn't mind if they found out there was a god...who could complain about an eternity with all your loved ones and a deity who cared for you? If god is omnipotent, then it knows what it would take for each and every person to come to him(her?it?). God has an eternity at its disposal and is allpowerful, so why would God fail in bringing all people into its presence, if that is what it really wanted?
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Yusuf Evans
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savvy said:
He wants us to be in his prescence. We turned our backs on him. It began in the beginning with Adam and Eve. We were suckered into believing in the wrong entity, Satan, the master of deceiving. The Lord saw that the world was slowly drifting away, so he sent his Son to die on the cross for us, to be the final sacrifice for our sins. However, for one to accept this, one has to accept the existence of the Lord. You say you would accept him, if he existed. He does exist. If you need proof, look at the beauty of nature around you. Notice how everything is in perfect harmony, the only one's who are not, are humans. We chose to be apart from the perfection and holiness of the Lord, but that can be changed. Accept the existence of the Lord, and accept the gift of salavation he has given us. It is only then that we will be awakened and see the wonderful creations the Lord has blessed us with.
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Good people? Threaten?Matty1919 said:
#1 It's not about being good or bad. It's about sin. Sin is bad. We are born into sin, because of the first sin. It's in our blood. It's a part of us. We can chose to turn away from temptation, and we should, but sin is something that is a part of us. Because of that, Jesus was offered as a sacrifice of atonement for our sins. God's word says that we must believe and confess Jesus and then Jesus will confess us as His, before the Heavenly Father.
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36
If we confess Jesus before men, He will confess us before His Father. Matthew 10:32-33
Confession is made with our mouth. Without confession we cannot be saved. Romans 10:9-10
#2 If you consider that a threat, then your focus is more on yourself than it is on what your creator has done for you.
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savvy
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Hell is a threat. Love me, obey me, or I'm going to put you in a place of torment for eternity. No just god would do that. If there is a god, I should hope it could not be so petty. If sin does exist, why would God not be able to deal with this in a better way than giving up and casting away his creations? If the god of the bible exists, he's been doing a very shoddy job.
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Are we really good people if God has to threaten us to be christians and love him? I mean he's promises to burn those that don't follow him. But if we "choose" to love him we go to heaven.
Here's the paradox, though: people who believe don't feel threatened at all. And if you don't believe, then obviously the threat has no teeth.
Here's the paradox, though: people who believe don't feel threatened at all. And if you don't believe, then obviously the threat has no teeth.
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Casstranquility
Potato, pineapple, pickle.
savvy said:
I have noooo idea. I didn't choose to be born. I didn't make that choice which sends me to hell automatically if I don't believe in Christ. I guess the true choice is whether or not we accept Christ's sacrifice for our sins. We're not sinful people anymore-God says we are "enemies in our minds". Sin, after Christ's death on the cross for sure, became nothing. But, we can't let go of it in our minds without accepting that it is gone. And if it is in our minds, then it separates us from God (even if just illusionarily) and causes a hell.
Yes, It does. We are already in God's presence.
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PKJ
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Dragons87 said:
Logical result of "drink-n-drive" is injury for self and others, thus the law forbids it. That is the law that was constructed by society to ensure better living and security for everyone.
Now please tell me, what are the purpose and foundation of that "Law" you are talking about? And how does the punishment prevents future breaking of said law?
(I'd also like to know when I am gonna get my golden house with a door made out of a big perl, since I never drink when I drive, not even a drop.)
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warispeace
ubi dubium, ibi libertas
christianmarine said:
That's almost like saying a mugger isn't forcing you to give him his money, he's simply offering you the choice of handing over your wallet or getting a brand new hole in your head. That's not much of a choice.
And I don't buy the law enforcement analogy. You can hold a traffic ticket. You can taste a beer. You can see the death resulting from drunk driving. You can't touch a sin or taste the threat of hell. And incarceration is supposed to rehabilitate the offender, or at least protect the public safety. I don't understand how hell is supposed to benefit anyone.
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It is also a threat. Do not do this, or else... We want to withhold people from a certain action. There are several ways to do this, of which threatening is one.Dragons87 said:
But why should I worship God? What purpose is in that, other than an egotrip for God? And what good is this worshipping, if it is done out of fear of being punished?
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xAtheistx
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I buy the analogy... but take it in context.
The Bible was written by human beings, such as yourself and myself.
If you moved to another country, and somebody as unknowledgable as you, that you'd been working with for a couple years (who had no background in your new country, never been there) told you that these (this this and this) were the laws, and to abide them or else... would you simply take his/her word? Or would you want more proof?
Me too.
Dragons87 said:
The Bible was written by human beings, such as yourself and myself.
If you moved to another country, and somebody as unknowledgable as you, that you'd been working with for a couple years (who had no background in your new country, never been there) told you that these (this this and this) were the laws, and to abide them or else... would you simply take his/her word? Or would you want more proof?
Me too.
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savvy
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shinbits said:
Who defines what is "good" or "wrong?" Is anything God commands automatically good or does he follow some higher law of morality? If the former, how can you claim goodness is objective or that God is good? If the latter, then God can't be omnipotent, can he? People do not just fall into black and white categories of good and evil.
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Looking at it another way, what have we done to deserve being created, and forced to endure the cruel world? It's almost as if we're being put on trial for no reason, and the world IS that trial.
Also, we could not have been created "perfect"- something that is "perfect" cannot degrade in any way. So God made humans fully capable (and bound to) disobey them. Those who disobey/those who do not accept God are forced to endure everlasting punishment. What could one possibly have done to deserve that?
Moving on, how could someone be sent to Hell for rejecting God when there are other, equally convincing and enticing religions around? Surely being say a Muslim (assuming Christian ideas about God, etc. are accurate) is an honest mistake? And clearly one's religious ideas are a product of their upbringing- where they grew up, their parents, etc. How is it fair that people who happened to be born in a certain area are more likely to accept Jesus and be granted a place in Heaven?
Also, we could not have been created "perfect"- something that is "perfect" cannot degrade in any way. So God made humans fully capable (and bound to) disobey them. Those who disobey/those who do not accept God are forced to endure everlasting punishment. What could one possibly have done to deserve that?
Moving on, how could someone be sent to Hell for rejecting God when there are other, equally convincing and enticing religions around? Surely being say a Muslim (assuming Christian ideas about God, etc. are accurate) is an honest mistake? And clearly one's religious ideas are a product of their upbringing- where they grew up, their parents, etc. How is it fair that people who happened to be born in a certain area are more likely to accept Jesus and be granted a place in Heaven?
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