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Itinerancy?

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Polycarp1

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One of the hallmarks of Methodism, I was raised to understand, is the idea that no minister is supposed to stay at a church forever -- that the bishop intentionally moves them around to avoid a parish getting "stuck in a rut" -- and that this was a 20th century adaptation of the old "circuit rider" concept of historical Methodism, and a cherished Methodist tradition.:preach:

I have personal reasons to dislike the custom, which I can go into if appropriate. But I'm wondering what the sense of the Methodists here is about it -- how important does it seem to be anymore?
 

herev

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I am an itinerate pastor, married to an itinerate pastor. I LOVE IT. It serves many purposes, actually. While the initial intent was to keep things lively (Asbury moved preachers every year), it now also allows for something akin to a career for many UM pastors. It allows for moving in the direction of salary increases over time (which I know many will say is too worldly, etc.etc). It allows for change not only for the congregation, but also for the pastor, who may have many different gifts that are not used by one congregation.
But for me, when done right, the biggest benefit is this:
When I go to a church, one of my main goals is to make sure that the ministries are controlled and led by laity. When a pastor "runs" everything--the ministries can become his ministries too easily. When that happens, the ministries are only alive as long as the pastor is there. But if the laity are in control of such things under a pastors guidance, then when he or she leaves, the ministry stays alive.
I think the ministry of the laity is vital and for me (while others will surely disagree), it is upon their ministry that a church lives or dies, grows or stagnates. A good pastor is there to equip the laity, help them develp THEIR vision for where God would have them be, and then give them the tools and moral support to realize that vision---all on an ongoing process.
for me personally, the itinerate system is akin to being a missionary. I go where I'm sent, trusting that the Bishop and the cabinet are listening to God's voice in their decisions.
And one last thing I just thought of, it also drives home the point (or should) that the pastor doesn't work for the people at the church (in terms of heirarchy). We are sent to serve those in the church, they give guidance and review our effectiveness, but we work for the District Superintendent and the Bishop--that helps solve some issues with various people "running" the church, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.
tommy
 
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kelco

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Sometimes it can be a good thing methinks, depending on the situation. But the "breaking in period" for a new pastor is hard on the congregation and the pastor. We switched pastors 15 months ago and it was a good thing for our church.

The max a pastor is supposed to stay at on church is 7 years, although there are exceptions to that rule.
 
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ClementofRome

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I will speak as a UMC PK and a current UMC member...

Growing up as a PK....it basically sucked, not for me as much as for my younger brother and sister. In the 60s-70s there seemed to be little difference paid to the pastors family. I attended 6 schools from k-12....that can't be a good thing. In fact, it was a bad thing. A particular sibling rebelled even more than I did against the constant family upheaval. It did seem to me that the Bishop could care less what the moves did to the family, as long as the appointments kept things...."moving on up to the Eastside...." (to quote a famous Jefferson).

As a current UMC member, I am still not a fan. It takes several years to get to know and trust and love a pastor and his/her family....this is not an automatic thing (as many DS's assume). It seems to me that just when you get a good one and begin to love them and support them ....the DS sees fit to send them on.

Esp. for those of us who worship in smaller, rural UMC churches.

Sorry to rant, this is a touchy subject for me.
 
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Islander

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I don't think it's as important as it was in the past but it's not only still practiced but almost all of us really appreciate it. A change in pastors every now and then brings more to the Biblical teaching. I live in area dominated by Baptists (I was one myself in the past) and they keep their pastors forever and the pastors become like the Protestant version of the Pope and I often hear UM's say they appreciate itinerancy because it prevents making into a spiritual idol. It's too easy to make everything about the pastor and itinerancy helps prevent that.
 
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ClementofRome

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I should clarify what I wrote above last night when I was really tired...

As a PK, I certainly did not enjoy the moves as it prevented lifelong friendships what many of my friends did have (growing up in a church and knowing your friends from birth til college and even later).

As a parishoner, I do agree with Islander perspective. I do believe that an occasional change of pastor is a good thing. Here is my beef, and I have seen this time and again...pastor does good....pastor gets moved. Pastor grows church...pastor gets moved. I would be in favor of something like 10 year appointments unless the pastor or the congregation requests the move. If neither requests the move, leave well enough alone....for at least an extended term.

Our church will likely face this next June. Our pastor (and we) have done an excellent job of bringing a church from the edge of extinction to a viable and fruitful and faithful congregation....the "chemistry" (for lack of a better word) is very good. The DS can't wait to move this man! ...and I really can't blame her, our pastor is a wonderful man, a godly man, a great preacher, a wonderful shephard...any church would be grateful to have him as pastor.

At any rate....I re-read my rant above from last night and felt moved to clarify.
Blessings to you all
 
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Celticflower

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Personally, I like the way the UMC moves pastors around. It keeps people from identifying with the pastor instead of God as the head of the church (IMHO). Also, it can help a church grow in specific ways. At the church I attended in PA we had a pastor who was near the end of his carreer who was very good at making people weclome and explaining Bible passages. He was replaced by a pastor who was great at getting the people to think outside the four walls of the church. During his stay the church increased its outreach in the community and brought new people in. He ticked some people off because he would not baptise every infant brought thru the front door--he wanted to see the parents in church for 6 weeks before hand. He was moved a bout 3 years ago and replaced by a very intelligent, but dry preacher. This man was hard to warm up to and tended to keep people at arms length. He was abruptly moved this spring and I haven't heard from my sister anything about the new pastor.

Another reason I like it is because there is less strain on the congregation than in churches where they have to go out and find a new pastor. I have been thru 2 of these pastor searches since moving to TN and they are not fun. In one we sat thru 6 weeks of sermons on the same passage of scripture :yawn: :sleep: . Then the guy who was picked turned out to be ok in the pulpit but lousy at the day to day ministering. (he also tended to be insulting to denominational Christians, but I get that a lot down here). Not to say all UMC ministers are great--we had one in NY who used the same sermons year after year. You could tell what Sunday it was by the sermon topic :p .

Celtie
 
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herev

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ClementofRome said:
I will speak as a UMC PK and a current UMC member...

Growing up as a PK....it basically sucked, not for me as much as for my younger brother and sister. In the 60s-70s there seemed to be little difference paid to the pastors family. I attended 6 schools from k-12....that can't be a good thing. In fact, it was a bad thing. A particular sibling rebelled even more than I did against the constant family upheaval. It did seem to me that the Bishop could care less what the moves did to the family, as long as the appointments kept things...."moving on up to the Eastside...." (to quote a famous Jefferson).

As a current UMC member, I am still not a fan. It takes several years to get to know and trust and love a pastor and his/her family....this is not an automatic thing (as many DS's assume). It seems to me that just when you get a good one and begin to love them and support them ....the DS sees fit to send them on.

Esp. for those of us who worship in smaller, rural UMC churches.

Sorry to rant, this is a touchy subject for me.
You can alwasy come here and rant CoR!!! I think I will print off your answer and give it to the DS when my kids are older and we are getting moved (again). Since both your parents are now retired from the ministry--what can they do to 'em, right?
Seriously, I do think they are doing better these days in the appointment process to think more of families, but there is still much to do. AS you understand, it will be potentially worse for us (2 pastor family), but It has come to be a system I trust, so I can only pray that God will provide me with just an itsy bitsy amount of wisdom to help my children
Tommy
 
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herev

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ClementofRome said:
I should clarify what I wrote above last night when I was really tired...

As a PK, I certainly did not enjoy the moves as it prevented lifelong friendships what many of my friends did have (growing up in a church and knowing your friends from birth til college and even later).

As a parishoner, I do agree with Islander perspective. I do believe that an occasional change of pastor is a good thing. Here is my beef, and I have seen this time and again...pastor does good....pastor gets moved. Pastor grows church...pastor gets moved. I would be in favor of something like 10 year appointments unless the pastor or the congregation requests the move. If neither requests the move, leave well enough alone....for at least an extended term.

Our church will likely face this next June. Our pastor (and we) have done an excellent job of bringing a church from the edge of extinction to a viable and fruitful and faithful congregation....the "chemistry" (for lack of a better word) is very good. The DS can't wait to move this man! ...and I really can't blame her, our pastor is a wonderful man, a godly man, a great preacher, a wonderful shephard...any church would be grateful to have him as pastor.

At any rate....I re-read my rant above from last night and felt moved to clarify.
Blessings to you all
this is why pastors MUST do a good job of preparing the church. When I left my last church, it was hard. WE had doubled the size of the church in all number areas, attendance, memebership, budget, salary, went from a 2 point charge to a station church. The church was very nervous about my leaving (and I was sad but knew it was time). I started a year early openly discussing with every ministry that change was comiing and would be a good thing if they treated it well. I told them THEY were in charge of their ministries and that a new pastor would come in and be THRILLED to have ministries running themselves so they could ease in slowly. I told them their job was to LOVE thier new pastor unconditionally.
When I found out who was following me, I knew the lady and she's fantastic. Of course it was the first woman appointed there, so there were additional problems. Anyway, when I run into old church members, they tell me now how wonderful things are--and how much they love their pastor--not a bump in the road--but it takes both pastors and nearly all of the congregaion to make it work.
 
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Polycarp1

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May I tell my tale that provoked this question, as an ex-Methodist who has no real grudge against the UMC, just a sense that Anglicanism is where my wife and I "belong" -- where God was calling us to be?

I hasten to make clear that this is not an attack on Methodism, just a statement of an incident resulting from the practice of itinerancy and lack of oversight that left me a bit bitter.

I grew up living next door to the Methodist church that we belonged to -- my grandfather had bought the double house in which we lived, and later sold half-interest in it to my parents, with the idea that he (and my grandmother and unmarried aunt) would live in one half and my parents and I in the other. We were all loyal members of that church.

We went through four ministers while I was growing up -- each there for five or six years and transferred. As I came home from college, there was another pastoral change, and the man who was moved in was a strong evangelical preacher (degree from ORU) and considered a "church builder."

We found out that he was a church builder in yet another way -- his last three pastorates had gone into debt to build new buildings. And he claimed to have evidence that the large, beautiful brick building in which we worshipped was going to have foundation problems owing to a supposed filled-in canal under its foundation. (My grandparents had lived there since around 1900 and knew nothing of this, nor had anyone else in the family ever heard of that canal.)

But he managed to convince the Official Board that they needed to tear down the old building and erect a new one. And the fight over whether or not to do this tore the church apart. And my aunt, who had served in a variety of recording-secretary roles in the church for years, was thrown out because she objected to doing it -- and we were given to understand that we were welcome there only if we didn't argue the point.

My family died off during his pastorate. The sole communications we got from them were two: a relayed comment that he was offended that we had not asked him to do the funeral services for my father, because he was his pastor (although, even living next door to the church, he had never once visited my father during the years he supposedly pastored him) and an attempt to collect my deceased parents' unpaid pledge, because it was needed for the building fund.

Some time later, it was discovered that he was guilty of fraud and embezzlement, and he was defrocked by the Methodist Church, and now has a little storefront church in the same town. In 20-plus years I was a Methodist, I never once encountered the Bishop for our Area, though supposedly he had oversight for what was going on. And the District Superintendent while all this stuff was going on was chronically ill, and although he lived in the same city, he never was in contact with anyone from the church so far as I know.

My wife and I, both Methodists, married and moved away for three years during his pastorate, and joined the Episcopal Church while we were gone. When we returned to our home town, we found out about most of the above.

So that's my story. And I attribute much of it to having the denominational church moved that pastor in, and then failing to provide any oversight for him, thanks to the enormous episcopal area and the D.S.'s illness, and the Official Board having largely gone along with what the Pastor wanted.
 
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Celticflower

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Polycarp--


I am sorry for your negative experience. The only bad experience I had with a pastor placed by the Methodist church was the one in NY I mentioned. He was removed from the pulpit due to the actions of the congregation. It seems he blessed the union of a gay couple at a housewarming and many of the congregation were upset. They circulated a petition, presented it to Pastor-Parish Relations which looked into the incident. They felt it warranted action and forwarded the complaint to the DS who in turn took it to the Bishop. The pastor was investigated and found to be guilty of going against the Discipline. They also felt that he was in the early stages of Alzheimers so were lenient with him. If he agreed to retire at that moment, and never set foot in a pulpit again, he would still receive his pension. Otherwise he would have been tossed out without a cent. His family convinced him to take the deal and they moved him quietly to their camp in Canada. Later it was learned that he did indeed have Alzheimers.
I wonder why the church in your situation did not do a similar thing-taking a complaint up the chain of command, so to speak? It was a long process, but in the end it turned out for the best for all parties involved.

Celtie
 
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overnight

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Although I agree that the story polycarp told was bad that is not the norm. I for one person like heyrev am going to be a umc pastor one day in the future like the appoinment of pastors. Its goal is to try and keep pastors on their feet. Also it is not like the people do not have a voice if they are having problems or things do not seem to be working out then they can call upon their DS or Bishop. Such things do happen in the UMC but are rare and the same type of thing happen in churches across America everyday. Just remember to keep praying for those who cause these type of situations to occure. Thank you though polycarp for bringing this up but remember that it is not localized to the UMC.
Peace and goodwill
OverKnight of the order
 
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seeking.IAM

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As a long-time member of one UMC church, I love it. I'm a bit long in the tooth, having been through at least six senior pastors during my membership. As a parishoner I like it because to me "church" is about worship and affiliation with a group of like-minded believers, not allegiance to a pastor. So, if you get a Pastor assigned to the church who does not satisfy your spiritual needs, you just wait awhile and s/he'll move on. Maybe you can find more to like it the next one.

On the other side of the coin, I grew up a PK. I think the itinerate system is hard on kids and families. I hated it as a kid. You moved into a community and didn't feel a part of things. All the kids had a history with each other before you arrived, and you weren't as much a part of things as they were. It seemed that as soon as you built some history of your own with them, and made attachements your parents came back from conference and said that you were moving. Then you went through the pain of separation involved in being torn away from your friends. I learned many things and many adaptive skills from being a PK so it was not all bad, however.

RJ
 
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Abiel

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One upon a time in the Army, officers stayed for no longer than two years. All you had to do was dig in for a wee while, and any crazy person with ideas about 'change' or 'growth' could be seen off! I think there must be a balance to be had between that, and the danger of ministers becoming jaded or too comfortable in one place.
 
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ufonium2

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My only issue with it (former UMC) is that many pastors see it as a way to move "up" to a "better" job. So a pastor does really well with a struggling small church, and gets moved to a bigger, "better" church. The small church gets a new pastor, and he's probably not going to be one of the best in the conference, or else he'd get sent to a "better" church.

This happened to my church every time. We were small and in a bad area, and we were forever being sent pastors who were close to retirement, sick, burned out, or just out of college. If one of them beat the odds and did well with the church, they got moved to a more affluent area and a bigger church.
 
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seeking.IAM

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There is some truth to what Ufonium says but it does not always work that way. True, small churches can only pay small salaries, so they may get those pastors on their way up or whose ministries are winding down. However, I have also known ministers that were off the fast-track by their own choice or perhaps a sense of calling. My father was an exception; he loved the intimacy of small congregations. He preferred to be in small churches in agrarian communities, and made his wishes known throughout his career--I'm sure to any District Superintendent or Bishop that would listen, and knowing my Dad to some that wouldn't listen. He didn't always get his way and, true, sometimes the cabinet plunked him down in a large metropolitan church. But, he was never happy there and always tried to get back being a pastor instead of an administrator of a large business.

As an adult, I attend the largest UMC in my conference. Anyway you slice the pie, we are the biggest piece: membership, attendance, giving, annual budget, clergy salary, etc. Persons assigned to us are on a fast-track. Many of our senior pastors go on to become District Superintendants upon their next appointment. One is now a Bishop, and deservedly so. A few years ago we had a dedicated Associate Pastor adored by the church. As Ufonium said, you don't get assigned to a church like ours if you are in trouble with the Bishop or have problems. The Associate also came to us on the fast track, and he did nothing to have others decide he should step off of it. When he left, he made a decision to seek out a simpler ministry and chose the kind of church my Father made a career of serving--a smaller, more intimate congregation. His choice may have been seen by some as career suicide, but he did what he thought he was called to do. And, I'm sure he is the more satisfied for it, even though he likely does without some things.

I would like to think that ministers still serve a Higher purpose and go where they feel called--by something besides the bank.

seeking.IAM
 
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wvmtnkid

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I don't really have feelings one way or the other about it, because it is the only thing I have ever known actually. I have always been a United Methodist, so it is my only reference point. Granted, it is hard to say goodbye to someone you love, but we do survive and carry on. I know it must be hard on the families that have to move and I do have sympathy for them. Our last pastor stayed 14 years, and that's quite a long time for a pastor to stay put someplace. He became a second father to me and even though he is not physcially here, I am still close to him and his family, so I wasn't too upset when he left because I knew the relationship would not be severed.

What did bother me, though, was when our new pastor came, he was from a congregation not far from us. Several of his church members from his old church came with him, not of his doing, but on their own accord. I really didn't agree with that. To me, they were not giving their new pastor a chance. It was hard on us, having to adjust to a new pastor after 14 years, and even after 3 years, there are still some that are struggling with that adjustment.
 
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