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It Was Impossible for Jesus to Sin

AFrazier

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Sorry, no.

oops.... false witness here.

Jesus was never drawn away of his own lust.... tch tch ....

Jesus was never drawn away and enticed by His Own desires, tch tch.....


The mis-understanding is profound, or simple. It is true that someone's own desires CAN tempt us,
but it is NOT the ONLY THING that can tempt us,
and Yahweh PROVIDES FREEDOM from our own desires (along with freedom from much else as well).

Jesus may have simply resisted temptation at some/ many / times, as
we are told also "resist the DEVIL, and he will flee"....
See? We are not desiring the devil, nor sin, when we are walking in the LIGHT as HE IS LIGHT. The devil (as an angel of light/ friend/ family/ pastor/ priest/ etc)
can still
and often does tempt ...... and most of the whole world goes along subjected to the devil ! .....
but we don't have to in Christ.
And this is why no one can ever get anywhere on one of these forums. Some people just won't listen to reason, logic, or scripture.

If a person doesn't want something, you can never, ever, EVER, tempt them with it. No man, for example, will ever tempt me to lay down with another man. I don't want to do so. There is nothing appealing in the idea whatsoever. In fact, it's repulsive to me. It's not possible to tempt me with it.

Jesus couldn't have been tempted with things he did not desire. It's not "tempting" if he doesn't want it. That's all there is to it.

Sorry you can't see the simplicity of that reality.
 
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hedrick

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Jesus couldn't have been tempted with things he did not desire. It's not "tempting" if he doesn't want it. That's all there is to it.
But the whole point of the temptations in the wilderness is that these are things that Jesus wanted. He wanted to be recognized as the Messiah, and he wanted to act as the King he was. Otherwise, as you point out, it's not temptation. But Matthew and Luke say it was. He just didn't want them to happen in the way the tempter proposed.

Saying it's temptation but not actual temptation is a kind of exegesis that can get you anywhere. In fact all temptation is of the type Jesus experienced. It's all baited with things that are good and we legitimately desire. It's just that we're tempted to do it in such a way that it will bring evil and not good.
 
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Uber Genius

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so Jesus walking on water was a “natural” event, since it happened.
So this is certainly representative of Spinoza during his deistic period. Spinoza is working off a similar framework as we find in Newton's "Principia."

The view is that God's will and his creation are all in a necessary causal chain. There are no miracles because everything that occurs has the same causal explanatory ultimate. Namely, God creates everything, God deterministically causes everything through his laws, and since natural philosophy (what we call science) is the study of these laws, all miracles are subsumed into inductive facts for a later "science."

All miracles are categorized as new facts in a future science that will explain things like people being raised from the dead, or being healed of blindness, etc. So definitionally, on Spinoza, "Miracles," don't exist.

Of course we now know that Newton's, Hume's, and Spinoza's views of the world were wrong. And the concomitant skepticism that attends these views is equally rare. Not that they weren't bright men, but knowledge moves on. We have a much clearer view of the world and the scriptures.

God does not control the world fatalistically through causal determinism.



Does God have free will?

This question makes sense when one examines the deistic, mechanistic assumptions of the late 17th century Enlightenment, but makes no sense given our current understanding of God.
The Bible is repleat with examples of God making choices and people making choices.

God rewarding those who make good choices and punishing those who don't.

God instructing people and telling them to share the teaching with others.
 
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Uber Genius

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Can you explain how “ sin is accidental” even philosophically?

Does the Bible teach that it is necessary that Adam and Eve sinned?

If "Yes," then sin is described as an "essential attribute" of being human.

If "No," then sin is described as "accidental attribute."

It seems scripture is clear that Adam was free not to sin and Jesus was also free not to sin.

If we find one "Human" who had the free will not to sin then we must describe the attribute as "contingent," or "accidental."


The divine and human nature are not two separate persons living in one body, like you would have with a husband and wife becoming one, because they do not become one person, but do become one. We can become one with the indwelling Holy Spirit, but the Spirit and us is not one person, but remain individuals.

Here I asked you to engage systematic theology.

I have not made any such claim that "Nature" equates to "person."

It is a non sequitur.

I was continuing to focus on the false analogy from the very first comment.

Jesus was free with regard to his human nature.

When I say God is not free to sin I mean that God can't operate in a way that violates his nature. He have partial knowledge, or partial power, or just be good most of the time but not all the time. His omni-benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient attributes are necessary attributes. God can no more sin than humans can be only a physical body without a soul.

Again, Adam with just human ability was going to sin and could not keep from sinning for eternity, so it was no accident.

This is false. Adam chose sin but was not fated to do so. Where in the history of Christian doctrine did someone support this inference?

And again, you seemed to be using the word "accident," in a non-technical way. I have given ample descriptions of what this term means philosophically, why continue to equivocate.

Accident - "An accident, in philosophy, is an attribute that may or may not belong to a subject, without affecting its essence. Aristotle made a distinction between the essential andaccidental properties of a thing. ... In modern philosophy, an accident (or accidentalproperty) is the union of two concepts: property and contingency. Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(philosophy)

I apologize for the wiki reference as they are one of the least reliable, but I'm pressed for time and it was convenient.
 
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Uber Genius

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Melchizedek was a MAN; MEN are priests, God is not.
God made Messiah a priest after the order of a man, who did not receive his priesthood as inheritance from his Mother or Father.

THAT is the meaning of "Without Father or Mother." Not that he did not have parents, but His PRIESTHOOD was not by inheritance, but was by appointment.
Sorry. I went back further in your conversation and it seems that you were trying to make the distinction about imputation of sin.
 
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bling

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Does the Bible teach that it is necessary that Adam and Eve sinned?

If "Yes," then sin is described as an "essential attribute" of being human.

If "No," then sin is described as "accidental attribute."

It seems scripture is clear that Adam was free not to sin and Jesus was also free not to sin.

If we find one "Human" who had the free will not to sin then we must describe the attribute as "contingent," or "accidental."




Here I asked you to engage systematic theology.

I have not made any such claim that "Nature" equates to "person."

It is a non sequitur.

I was continuing to focus on the false analogy from the very first comment.

Jesus was free with regard to his human nature.

When I say God is not free to sin I mean that God can't operate in a way that violates his nature. He have partial knowledge, or partial power, or just be good most of the time but not all the time. His omni-benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient attributes are necessary attributes. God can no more sin than humans can be only a physical body without a soul.



This is false. Adam chose sin but was not fated to do so. Where in the history of Christian doctrine did someone support this inference?

And again, you seemed to be using the word "accident," in a non-technical way. I have given ample descriptions of what this term means philosophically, why continue to equivocate.

Accident - "An accident, in philosophy, is an attribute that may or may not belong to a subject, without affecting its essence. Aristotle made a distinction between the essential andaccidental properties of a thing. ... In modern philosophy, an accident (or accidentalproperty) is the union of two concepts: property and contingency. Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accident_(philosophy)

I apologize for the wiki reference as they are one of the least reliable, but I'm pressed for time and it was convenient.
We are in conflict here so I will address it, while the rest is words: You said: "This is false. Adam chose sin but was not fated to do so. Where in the history of Christian doctrine did someone support this inference?"

I really do not care about “the history of Christian doctrine” except to possible see what others have said and never to find the answer.

Knowing: Adam and Eve did sin, God, Adam and Eve, human nature and man’s objective, tells us: they were going to sin.

Not ever sinning is not a choice mature only human adult can make, but they can of their own free will chose not to do a particular sin at a particular time, so that makes them accountable for all their sins.

Adam and Eve’s time in the Garden and sinning, allowed them and the rest of us to learn many things including the fact that the Garden scenario is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

“Not ever sinning” is not man’s objective and sinning seem to be needed for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.
 
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Uber Genius

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I really do not care
This statement has explanatory power.
Knowing: Adam and Eve did sin, God, Adam and Eve, human nature and man’s objective, tells us: they were going to sin.

This is called circular reasoning.

It is fallacious because it presumes in its premise the very thing it is trying to prove in the argument.

"Prove sin is essential to mankind."

P1. Sin happened.
A. Therefore Sin had to happen.

Further we see God punishing Adam and Eve but if they had no way to resist sinning as you suggest, then God is a tyrant who creates mankind that must sin, and then punishes them for doing what they must do!

This is not the Christian concept of man.

This is not the Christian concept of God.

This is not the Christian concept of Sin.

Sin is not essential.

Sin is a function of Adam and Eve freely disobeying God's command.

Mankind after Adam sinned is stained with a sin-nature (according to most accounts) making sin nature something that every man receives from his parents (Jewish belief was sin transferred through the father not the mother).

If sin is determined by God he is the creator of the sin nature. He is the one who fates man to sin. God is directly responsible for evil and suffering as well. And he has created a play that man must act in like a marionnette on a string. This bears no resemblance to the thousands of verses that claim that man must:

obey
study
examine
teach others
will be judged on his choices

Again, please justify your claim that Adam was not free to obey and that the Genesis account was false.
 
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bling

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This statement has explanatory power.


This is called circular reasoning.

It is fallacious because it presumes in its premise the very thing it is trying to prove in the argument.

"Prove sin is essential to mankind."

P1. Sin happened.
A. Therefore Sin had to happen.
The real “prove” to show sin is essential is in the definition and understanding of: man’s objective, Godly type Love, how Christ explains how we could get an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love which will includes sin), the Garden, satan, man having free will, and understanding human nature.

Adam and Eve where the very best all human representatives (created by God and parented to maturity by the best parent (programmed)), so if they sinned without first fulfilling their earthly objective the rest of us would sin.

God could have easily set them up, so they could not eat the fruit.
Further we see God punishing Adam and Eve but if they had no way to resist sinning as you suggest, then God is a tyrant who creates mankind that must sin, and then punishes them for doing what they must do!

This is not the Christian concept of man.

This is not the Christian concept of God.

This is not the Christian concept of Sin.

Sin is not essential.

Sin is a function of Adam and Eve freely disobeying God's command.
There is a huge difference between being “punished” and being Lovingly “disciplines” (even if they are both translated from the same Greek word).

Would you prefer to be in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your personal ability to obey God (the Garden) or in a place where your eternal close relationship with God was dependent on your just accepting His Charity (Love) (where you are today)?

This messed up world is the absolute best place for willing individuals to accept God’s charity as pure sacrificial Charity (the way it is presented), so how is this “punishment”?
Again, please justify your claim that Adam was not free to obey and that the Genesis account was false.
To “obey God’s commands” you first have to have Godly type Love “If you Love me you will obey me…”

Godly type Love is not instinctive to man since that would make it a robotic type of Love.

Godly type Love is not something God can force on us (like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun) since that would not be “Loving” on God’s part nor would the love we received be a Godly type Love.

There are some things God just cannot do like make clones of Christ, since Christ always existed and in this case place in humans an unconditional, unselfish, free will Love that is truly ours as a result of our free will if it the result of His will alone.

The only way to obtain this unbelievable Love is by what Jesus taught us “…he that is forgiven much Loves much…” so if we accept God’s forgiveness (Love) of an unbelievable huge debt created by sin, we will automatically have an unbelievable huge Love (which is a Godly type Love), but that means sin is necessary to create the debt.

God hates sin and hated the fact Christ had to go to the cross, but will allow it in order to help willing individuals to become like He is (Loving), so we can be happy in heaven by Him (at the huge Love Feast).

I see nothing “false” about the Geneses account, because it does not say Adam and Eve can keep from sinning in the Garden under the Garden Scenario. I do not know how long they went on obeying God’s command before they disobeyed (more than I would have without Spiritual help). I am told not to sin and yet sin and they were told not to sin and sinned, so do I blame myself or God or Adam & Eve for a “sinful nature” and who should Adam and Eve blame?
 
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Theo Book

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Sorry. I went back further in your conversation and it seems that you were trying to make the distinction about imputation of sin.

Unimputed sin is common to ALL!
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Jesus was tempted in all the ways I am tempted -

Temptation is not sin. Temptation can lead to sin. Jesus was tempted like me, therefore was subjected to unrighteousness; all unrighteousness is sin.

Hebrews 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

"Sin not unto death" is unimputed. Therefore Jesus had sins that were not counted against him. This demonstrated by the simple fact that His sacrifice is compared with the sacrifices of the Levitical Priesthood, who DAILY sacrificed first for their own sins, then for the sins of the people. What they did DAILY - HE DID ONCE. Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
 
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Theo Book

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On internet forums, no one seems to be able to clearly get a simple true understanding because there are so many different (and wrong) views.

For your own understanding, see if you can find the book (small paperback, non-fiction) by David Wilkerson titled "Sipping Saints". (not for discussion here)

Not only did Jesus change water to wine, every Hebrew's house had a flat roof, upon which was planted a vine, for the dual purpose of providing shade from the Sun, and grapes for the making of wine.

There is no sin for drinking; the sin is for drunkenness; i.e., drinking to the excessive point of inebriation.

Israel in its youth was compared to a grapevine and a fig tree -
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time:

Look at how Jesus spoke of the vine-
John 15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned."

Sometimes folks will find themselves unable to resist specific temptations, so they make it an issue of Christian law, where no such law exists. Rather than face the issue with prayer and fasting, some will simply attempt to force a belief in making things unlawful for Christians everywhere.

I once preached at a church where members were holding each other captive to such things as "It is a sin to go to the beach; it is a sin to drink; it is a sin to gamble; it is a sin to go to movies; it is a sin to look upon a woman; it is a sin to_________________________(fill in the blank.)

I offered them Col 2:18-23 "Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,21 Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using; after the commandments and doctrines of men?23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.
 
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Theo Book

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We are in conflict here so I will address it, while the rest is words: You said: "This is false. Adam chose sin but was not fated to do so. Where in the history of Christian doctrine did someone support this inference?"

I really do not care about “the history of Christian doctrine” except to possible see what others have said and never to find the answer.

Knowing: Adam and Eve did sin, God, Adam and Eve, human nature and man’s objective, tells us: they were going to sin.

Not ever sinning is not a choice mature only human adult can make, but they can of their own free will chose not to do a particular sin at a particular time, so that makes them accountable for all their sins.

Adam and Eve’s time in the Garden and sinning, allowed them and the rest of us to learn many things including the fact that the Garden scenario is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

“Not ever sinning” is not man’s objective and sinning seem to be needed for humans to fulfill their earthly objective.

SAD! SAD! SAD!

The story of Adam is a story of the greatest expression of Human love known to Men.

Adam was instructed by God, while walking together in the garden, "Do not eat of the tree in the middle of the garden; if you do, you will die."

At some point, God made of Adam's Rib, a WOMAN, and God brought her to Adam and gave her to him as wife.

At that point Adam ceased to living alone and knowing only the companionship of Animals and Flora.

Adam did not know of Eve's jeopardy when Satan confronted her and lied to her, deceiving her, when she went to the center of the garden, saw that the fruit of the tree was "good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."[Gen 3:5]

When Adam realized the depth of Eve's error, he had two alternatives, (sometimes thought of as choices, though I believe Adam saw only one) The first was to separate himself from this woman whom God had brought to him and introduced her as a "MATE." Adam flashed back in memory to the days of loneliness and solitude broken only by the visits of God walking in the garden.

Some would declare (with a straight face) that walking with God should be enough for ANY man. But even God, who had made Adam, "saw that it was NOT GOOD for Adam to be alone."

So Adam did what MEN were made for, he protected his mate, and joined her in her rebellion against God. And in banishment from the garden of Eden. And in suffering the effects of God's cursing of the Earth, bringing forth thorns and thistles, and Adam, for the first time in his life, earning his food by the sweat of his brow.

Can you imagine Adam, living more than a thousand years, when meeting other members of his family who might occasionally stop and enquire of him "Grampa, what happened in the garden." I have no trouble tearing up with Adam as he simply hangs his head and walks off into the forest to find solace in the arms of his Mate, and his memories of walking with his God in the garden in the dawn of time.

Did Adam have a "Sin nature?" If he did, it was a good thing, for upon finishing the activity of creating, God had looked upon his creation, and declared all things to be "Very Good."

Then there are several bible references that deny the entire doctrine of original sin and hereditary depravity, so popular among bent and twisted harbingers of docrine over scripture;

Such as "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Romans 2:14 Where is the "Sin Nature" here?

And Noah, Daniel and Job, who "saved only their selves by their righteousness"
as described in Ezekiel 14, thusly -
"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."[Ezek 14:12-20]

There is no "Sin Nature" inherent in MAN; rather man makes choices every day of his life, some ood, some bad, some very good, some very bad. But it is "CHOICES" made of "FREE WILL" - NOT "SIN NATURE" that curses us all the days of our lives.

If Man had a sin nature, how is it possible God would direct His prophet to say to Israel - " And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:..." [Joshua 24:15] They chose that day to serve Jehovah God. How, if they could not do anything to help their situation because of a sin nature?

And for those who insist ONLY Jesus could save Noah, Daniel and Job, and All have sinned and fallen short, and "there is none righteous no not one" - all of which is scriptural- I hasten to point out, "There is none righteous" was a single statement made at a specific point in a time when there were no righteous men. And "All have sinned" is mitigated by "Blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin," which is a reference to "sins not unto death" as described by John in 1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

A "Sin not unto death" is a category of sin covered by the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross, and it is the category of sin that is not imputed to those who are blessed BECAUSE the Lord will not impute sin to them.

Jesus saved all men who are saved. But Noah, Daniel and Job, had only "Sins not unto death, which were not imputed to them, but so also did Jesus Christ - for it is said of Him, that what the Levitical priests did DAILY Christ didonce when he sacrificed Himself. (Heb 7:27)
 
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bling

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SAD! SAD! SAD!

The story of Adam is a story of the greatest expression of Human love known to Men.

Adam was instructed by God, while walking together in the garden, "Do not eat of the tree in the middle of the garden; if you do, you will die."

At some point, God made of Adam's Rib, a WOMAN, and God brought her to Adam and gave her to him as wife.

At that point Adam ceased to living alone and knowing only the companionship of Animals and Flora.

Adam did not know of Eve's jeopardy when Satan confronted her and lied to her, deceiving her, when she went to the center of the garden, saw that the fruit of the tree was "good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."[Gen 3:5]

When Adam realized the depth of Eve's error, he had two alternatives, (sometimes thought of as choices, though I believe Adam saw only one) The first was to separate himself from this woman whom God had brought to him and introduced her as a "MATE." Adam flashed back in memory to the days of loneliness and solitude broken only by the visits of God walking in the garden.

Some would declare (with a straight face) that walking with God should be enough for ANY man. But even God, who had made Adam, "saw that it was NOT GOOD for Adam to be alone."

So Adam did what MEN were made for, he protected his mate, and joined her in her rebellion against God. And in banishment from the garden of Eden. And in suffering the effects of God's cursing of the Earth, bringing forth thorns and thistles, and Adam, for the first time in his life, earning his food by the sweat of his brow.

Can you imagine Adam, living more than a thousand years, when meeting other members of his family who might occasionally stop and enquire of him "Grampa, what happened in the garden." I have no trouble tearing up with Adam as he simply hangs his head and walks off into the forest to find solace in the arms of his Mate, and his memories of walking with his God in the garden in the dawn of time.

Did Adam have a "Sin nature?" If he did, it was a good thing, for upon finishing the activity of creating, God had looked upon his creation, and declared all things to be "Very Good."

Then there are several bible references that deny the entire doctrine of original sin and hereditary depravity, so popular among bent and twisted harbingers of docrine over scripture;

Such as "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Romans 2:14 Where is the "Sin Nature" here?

And Noah, Daniel and Job, who "saved only their selves by their righteousness"
as described in Ezekiel 14, thusly -
"The word of the LORD came again to me, saying, 13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness."[Ezek 14:12-20]

There is no "Sin Nature" inherent in MAN; rather man makes choices every day of his life, some ood, some bad, some very good, some very bad. But it is "CHOICES" made of "FREE WILL" - NOT "SIN NATURE" that curses us all the days of our lives.

If Man had a sin nature, how is it possible God would direct His prophet to say to Israel - " And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell:..." [Joshua 24:15] They chose that day to serve Jehovah God. How, if they could not do anything to help their situation because of a sin nature?

And for those who insist ONLY Jesus could save Noah, Daniel and Job, and All have sinned and fallen short, and "there is none righteous no not one" - all of which is scriptural- I hasten to point out, "There is none righteous" was a single statement made at a specific point in a time when there were no righteous men. And "All have sinned" is mitigated by "Blessed is the man to whom the lord will not impute sin," which is a reference to "sins not unto death" as described by John in 1 John 5:16 "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

A "Sin not unto death" is a category of sin covered by the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross, and it is the category of sin that is not imputed to those who are blessed BECAUSE the Lord will not impute sin to them.

Jesus saved all men who are saved. But Noah, Daniel and Job, had only "Sins not unto death, which were not imputed to them, but so also did Jesus Christ - for it is said of Him, that what the Levitical priests did DAILY Christ didonce when he sacrificed Himself. (Heb 7:27)
I would go further than you went:

Adam and Eve is the original Romeo and Juliet story, Adam Loved Eve to the point he did not want to live without her (He was truly “with” Eve by this time and not against Eve).

Adam was given leadership over Eve because He did Love her. Adam Loved Eve more than he Loved God (If you Love me you will obey me…)

Adam and Eve were made “very good”, but that is not “perfect” like Christ since Christ is not a created being so He cannot be cloned. Adam and Eve were made as good as they could be made, but there is one main thing even God could not instinctively place in Adam and that is Godly type Love since Godly type Love is not instinctive (instinctive being robotic).

Adam and Eve would have to be gifted with this unique unconditional, unselfish type of Love as a result of the own free will desire choice, but to accept huge sacrificial pure charity as charity requires humility and prior to A&E sinning there was no need to be humble and they would expect God as their creator to take care of them since they had not done anything undeserving.

Our “nature” does not have to be any different than A&E’s nature prior to sinning for us to sin since they sinned with the nature they had, but that does not mean we have within ourselves the ability to not sin any more than A&E had the personal ability not to sin.
 
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Uber Genius

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To “obey God’s commands” you first have to have Godly type Love “If you Love
I said,
"Again, please justify your claim that Adam was not free to obey and that the Genesis account was false."

you responded with the above explanation. But I have never heard such a claim in 43 years of Christian study and teaching. Please justify your ad hoc explanation with some Biblical texts that tightly link "obedience" with your "Godly love," inference. Or still better a commentator making a similar connection. The texts in Genesis seem to have obedience simpliciter in mind, further if they are "fated" as you have suggested, then that would eliminate both obedience and obedience based on godly love equally.
 
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AFrazier

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Yes, Jesus could have sinned. Furthermore , he was and in not God Almighty. The scriptures overwhelming support this great controversy.
Sorry, there are typos in your statement, so I hoped for clarification. Did you mean to say that Jesus was not, and is not, God Almighty, and that the scriptures overwhelmingly support such a point of view?
 
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Mark51

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Sorry, there are typos in your statement, so I hoped for clarification. Did you mean to say that Jesus was not, and is not, God Almighty, and that the scriptures overwhelmingly support such a point of view?

Thank you. I did make a typo error. For clarification: Jesus was not and is not Almighty God.
 
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AFrazier

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Thank you. I did make a typo error. For clarification: Jesus was not and is not Almighty God.
Scripture does not, as you claim, overwhelmingly support such a conclusion. To the contrary, it overwhelmingly supports the exact opposite, directly, inferentially, and otherwise. To conclude otherwise requires deliberate manipulation of the scriptures, such as adding the indefinite article to John 1:1, creating a polytheistic situation by making Jesus a separate and lesser god to God the Father. I don't think you have a valid argument for your contention.
 
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Mark51

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Scripture does not, as you claim, overwhelmingly support such a conclusion. To the contrary, it overwhelmingly supports the exact opposite, directly, inferentially, and otherwise. To conclude otherwise requires deliberate manipulation of the scriptures, such as adding the indefinite article to John 1:1, creating a polytheistic situation by making Jesus a separate and lesser god to God the Father. I don't think you have a valid argument for your contention.
 
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Mark51

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Scripture does not, as you claim, overwhelmingly support such a conclusion. To the contrary, it overwhelmingly supports the exact opposite, directly, inferentially, and otherwise. To conclude otherwise requires deliberate manipulation of the scriptures, such as adding the indefinite article to John 1:1, creating a polytheistic situation by making Jesus a separate and lesser god to God the Father. I don't think you have a valid argument for your contention.

Carefully consider the following scriptures of Matthew only (definitely not inclusive) and explain how John 1:1(not conducive to Koine Greek) is a supporting scripture for this doctrine.

“This is my Son…”-3:17
“…son of God…“ (4:3); “…Jehovah’s mouth…” (4:4); “…son of God…” (4:6); “Jehovah your God…” (4:7); “…Jehovah your God you must worship…”-4:10
“…your Father who is in the heavens.“ (5:16, 45) “…heavenly Father…”-5:48
“…Father who is in the heavens” (6:1); “..pay to your father…” (6:6); “…God your father…” (6:8); “Our father in the heavens…” (6:9); “…heavenly Father…”-6:14, 26, 32
“…your Father who is in the heavens…“-7:11, 21
“…Son of God…“-8:29
“…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (10:32, 33); “…sent me forth.”-10:40
“…Father…“-11:25-27
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“-12:50
“You are really God’s son.“-14:33
“…my heavenly father…“-15:13
“…son of the living God…” (16:16); “…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (16:17); “…come in the glory of his Father…“-16:27
“This is my Son…“-17:5
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“ (18:10, 14); “…my Father in heaven…”(18:19); “…my heavenly Father…”-16:35
‘…my Father…“-20:23
“…your Father, the heavenly one…“ (23:9); “…your Leader…” (23:10); “…he that comes in Jehovah’s name!”-23:39
“…neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”-24:36
“…blessed by my Father…“-25:34
“…in the kingdom of my Father.“ (26:29); “My Father…” (26:39, 42, 53); “By the living God…Christ the Son of God!” (26:63); “You yourself said it…”-26:64
“Certainly this was God’s Son.“-27:54
“All authority has been given me…“-28:18
 
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AFrazier

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Carefully consider the following scriptures of Matthew only (definitely not inclusive) and explain how John 1:1(not conducive to Koine Greek) is a supporting scripture for this doctrine.

“This is my Son…”-3:17
“…son of God…“ (4:3); “…Jehovah’s mouth…” (4:4); “…son of God…” (4:6); “Jehovah your God…” (4:7); “…Jehovah your God you must worship…”-4:10
“…your Father who is in the heavens.“ (5:16, 45) “…heavenly Father…”-5:48
“…Father who is in the heavens” (6:1); “..pay to your father…” (6:6); “…God your father…” (6:8); “Our father in the heavens…” (6:9); “…heavenly Father…”-6:14, 26, 32
“…your Father who is in the heavens…“-7:11, 21
“…Son of God…“-8:29
“…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (10:32, 33); “…sent me forth.”-10:40
“…Father…“-11:25-27
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“-12:50
“You are really God’s son.“-14:33
“…my heavenly father…“-15:13
“…son of the living God…” (16:16); “…my Father who is in the heavens…“ (16:17); “…come in the glory of his Father…“-16:27
“This is my Son…“-17:5
“…my Father who is in the heaven…“ (18:10, 14); “…my Father in heaven…”(18:19); “…my heavenly Father…”-16:35
‘…my Father…“-20:23
“…your Father, the heavenly one…“ (23:9); “…your Leader…” (23:10); “…he that comes in Jehovah’s name!”-23:39
“…neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.”-24:36
“…blessed by my Father…“-25:34
“…in the kingdom of my Father.“ (26:29); “My Father…” (26:39, 42, 53); “By the living God…Christ the Son of God!” (26:63); “You yourself said it…”-26:64
“Certainly this was God’s Son.“-27:54
“All authority has been given me…“-28:18
The demonstration is this:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [...] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

Jesus is the Word, and the Word is God. There is no implication or inference here. It is a directly stated fact of scripture.

In your Matthew examples, you forget that Jesus, the man, gave up his glory, took upon himself the form of a servant, and made himself lesser than the angels so that he could come as the seed of Abraham, be born under the law, so that he could redeem those who were under the law. He came to us as the son of Adam (the son of man). And in his capacity as the son of man, it was his duty to not make himself equal to God.

Most of the things Christ said that give the appearance of being separate and subordinate were said in his role as man. But he later regains his former glory that he shared with God (John 17:5); "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

It is God who became man in order to save mankind. And there are more direct passages of scripture to support this than you are giving credit for.
 
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