It gets me so mad!!!!!!!!

[mjterry87]

Shalom

Today my dad talked to me about my faith. Now what you have to understand is that my dad does not like Jews, not at all. He thinks that Christanity and Judaism are two very different religions, when they are really not (at least to us). And you know what he said to me, he said "when Jesus came, he abolished the law."


This makes me so mad. Why do Christians think this? I dont know if I asked this before or not, but why? Where does it say not to follow the law? I know in the book of Hebrews, it says something similar to that, but they are talking about sacrificies, right? This makes me so upset. Whys do Christian think this way? Didn't they read Matthew 5:17 (see my signature). I hate it!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[rooster]

There once was a man called Ferdinand Weber. He thought himself to be a scholar and an authority on all things Judaistic. He wrote a book called Jewish Theology on the Basis of the Talmud and Related Writings where he summarized a massive amount of rabbinical writing into his own categories with his own commentary and evaluation. This book portrayed Judaism in a false light. This book became a handbook for many prominant scholars on things concerning Jewish religious conceptions during the time of Christ and Paul.
This book in a sense, perpetuated a paradigm that had existed implicitely since Luther.

Very briefly, Weber described 1st century Judaistic beliefs as one of work-righteousness. Where there exist a certain economy between fulfilling commentments and salvation, the more commands you fulfill, the better your credit with G-d and thus if any sin was committed, you would have plenty of credit to be struck off against the sin thus maintaining one's salvation.

Thus through naive induction, by equating 1st century Judaism with the old testament/covenant, then equating it with the law, people arrive at the simplistic conclusion that the "old covenant" was one of work-righteousness, and this in my opinion is one of the most abhorrable belief in the church today.
Thus it is with this mindset that people read various comments of Paul regarding the law and thus arrive at the wrong conclusions.

This of course is not the work of Weber alone, he himself is the victim of various polemics against the Law since Luther.
Scholars after Weber had tried to correct this misperception of Old testament theology (and had been successful to a large degree), most notably Claude Montefiore (a Jewish Christian) among others, but the mindset that there exist an anthesis between the Law and Faith/Grace is already too deeply ingrained in Christianity.

Actually, if you were to pick up any honest book about OT theology, it would display an understanding that grace was as evident in the OT times as in the new, and that the Law was NOT for justification as many would have it. This is much at variance with what is preached from the pulpits(or rather stages) today, but the realization of the truth is important, because the understanding that the old testament did not teach a religion of work/righteousness is important because it would bring people to re-examine the words of Paul, and realize that the words of Paul did not abrogate the words of our Lord but must must be understood in the light of it.

Peace to you
Glory to G-d

Les

 

[WildCelt]

You may also want to read Our Father Abraham by Marvin Wilson. It has a quite detailed and fascinating explanation on the split between Judiasm and Christianity.

This is frustrating, but unfortunately pervasive in most of Christendom. The best thing to do is teach/correct in love. Remember, we are attempting to counteract 2000 years worth of misinformation.

Shalom

 

[muffler dragon]

Ever heard of Marcion?

He's everywhere and he's making a comeback in the 'christian' church.

Nathan

 

[simchat_torah]

He's everywhere and he's making a comeback in the 'christian' church.

Making a comeback? How about, he never left

 

[muffler dragon]

[/font]
Making a comeback? How about, he never left

As you are fully aware, that is what I am beginning to see, but didn't for the longest time.

Thank you for pointing out my failure of church history brother.

Nathan

 

[simchat_torah]

Thank you for pointing out my failure of church history brother.

What are friends for?




btw... I have living sacrafice on cd. not that you care.

 

[Talmidah]

Ever heard of Marcion?

He's everywhere and he's making a comeback in the 'christian' church.

Nathan

OK....I'll show my ignorance.....who is Marcion?

 

[shmuel]

Marcion was a 2nd century Gnostic who created his own canon. He rejected all the Tanakh and every Gospel except an editted version of (IIRC) Luke. His scripture was essentially a collection of Paul's letters.

The Gnostics taught that the God revealed in the Tanakh was not the same God as the Father of Yeshua.

 

[simchat_torah]

and the spirit of marcion lives on despite him being declared a heretic...

Though the man was rejected, his theology was accepted blanketedly.

 

[WildCelt]

btw... I have living sacrafice on cd. not that you care.

I have the first two as well, and MD's sig made me recently dust 'em off and give them a listen . I remember seeing them live back in the day.

 

[Ahriman]

you like zao?

 

[WildCelt]

I remember listening to them, but never picked up any of their albums. I typically like more melodic metal bands, but I have all of Vengeance (Rising)'s albums as well, and they were decent (even though the lead singer fell away from faith in a big way).

 

[muffler dragon]

If any of you ever want to talk solid hardcore and metal music of this nature, then by all means, send posts my way. I would love to share some of the stuff that has come up recently in both the secular and the 'christian' markets.

That's off topic though, so I digresss to our regularly scheduled thread.

Nathan

p.s. killswitch engage is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Iollain]

You may also want to read Our Father Abraham by Marvin Wilson. It has a quite detailed and fascinating explanation on the split between Judiasm and Christianity.

This is frustrating, but unfortunately pervasive in most of Christendom. The best thing to do is teach/correct in love. Remember, we are attempting to counteract 2000 years worth of misinformation.

Shalom

This is the answer for having us understand.........in love. When i was first a Christian,i did not see how the old and new testaments went together,it took prayer and God to show me that they sure do.

 

[mjterry87]

This is the answer for having us understand.........in love. When i was first a Christian,i did not see how the old and new testaments went together,it took prayer and God to show me that they sure do.

Very True

Shalom

 

[num_me_vexo]

can someone explain to me exactly what a messianic gentile believes in? because if u believe in jesus then its the same as christianity...

 

[Henaynei]

can someone explain to me exactly what a messianic gentile believes in? because if u believe in jesus then its the same as christianity...

Well, no its not actually
First we must define Messianic Judaism. From our forum FAQ:

This particular brand of Judaism is hard to define as they lack central leadership. Essentially, the most basic elements of Messianic Judaism is Judaism [a system of belief based on the Torah/Pentatuch] + Yeshua as Messiah. One can find Messianic congregations that are almost exactly like a christian church and yet also find Messianic congregations that would be nearly identical to Orthodox synagouges. The greatest difference between Messianic Judaism and other forms of Judaism is the belief that Yeshua (or sometimes Jesus) is the prophesied messiah, and will return for a second time to rule as king. Though there are fractions within Messianic Judaism that are independant, most congregations either fall into the UMJC, IMACS, or (most popularly) the MJAA

Then we must answer the question, "What if you are not Jewish but have similar beliefs as Messianics?" Also from our FAQ:

The simplest answer is that we are Messianic Gentiles. That is, non-Jews who express our faith and obedience in a Jewish format/culture.
Gentiles who claim to be Messianic but resist or fight against Judaism and Jewish expressions of obedience are still Christians who for some reason want what they perceive as some "specialness of the Jews" while retaining their hold on the culture from which they have come. This inevitably leads to difficulty for all.

For more interesting stuff check out our whole FAQ

b'Shalom
Heneynei

 

[slim]

Shalom

Today my dad talked to me about my faith. Now what you have to understand is that my dad does not like Jews, not at all. He thinks that Christanity and Judaism are two very different religions, when they are really not (at least to us). And you know what he said to me, he said "when Jesus came, he abolished the law."


This makes me so mad. Why do Christians think this? I dont know if I asked this before or not, but why? Where does it say not to follow the law? I know in the book of Hebrews, it says something similar to that, but they are talking about sacrificies, right? This makes me so upset. Whys do Christian think this way? Didn't they read Matthew 5:17 (see my signature). I hate it!!!!!!!!!!!

There are 3 groups of law 1. Civil Law- Government law 2. Ceremonial law Tabernacle, Temple, Religious activities 3. Moral Law Based on the character of God The Ten Commandments Acts15 The Jerusalem Council decided that the gentiles did not have to behave like Jews.So if we keep to the Moral Law we're OK. Matthew 22:37 He told him, " You are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. And a second is similar to it You are to love your neighbor as yourself. All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot." (Complete Jewish Bible ) Hope this answers why do Chritians think this way.

 

[Henaynei]

There are 3 groups of law 1. Civil Law- Government law 2. Ceremonial law Tabernacle, Temple, Religious activities 3. Moral Law Based on the character of God The Ten Commandments Acts15 The Jerusalem Council decided that the gentiles did not have to behave like Jews.So if we keep to the Moral Law we're OK. Matthew 22:37 He told him, " You are to love ADONAI your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. This is the greatest and most important mitzvah. And a second is similar to it You are to love your neighbor as yourself. All of the Torah and the Prophets are dependent on these two mitzvot." (Complete Jewish Bible ) Hope this answers why do Chritians think this way.

well, actually, no, it doesn't. All too often believers only take the portions of scripture they want and throw the rest back

The whole section is this:
P'yilut Hashaliachim (Acts) 15: 19-21
19 "Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God. 20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat."

What is the purpose of Ya'acov the Elder stating this in "verse" 21?? What he had stated is that the minimal level of Torah observance was as stated in 19-20, and that the believers would learn the rest as they attended synagogue and heard the rest taught every Shabbat. Verses 19-20 are the *starting* point, not the ending.

G-d never divided up His law - even in the Decalogue they are not separated. How to worship and when to worship are "ceremonial", while others are moral and still others civil..... Man divided up G-d's instructions into "need to do" and "don't need to do" categories - G-d never did. He stated that His law was forever, until Heaven and Earth pass away, until seed time and harvest cease.... so far so good...... Sun still comes up every morning and the corn still grows