It all Started by Chance?

[Anthony]

We can argue evolution for the most part with other people's research, and coping stuff out of books, and parroting what we have heard back and forth. But in the end, or rather in the beginning; did creation, evolution, etc. just all start with chance?

 

[JohnR7]

But in the end, or rather in the beginning; did creation, evolution, etc. just all start with chance?

Actually, it all started with choice. There never would have been an "end" if Adam and Eve had not made the wrong choice.

 

[notto]

We can argue evolution for the most part with other people's research, and coping stuff out of books, and parroting what we have heard back and forth. But in the end, or rather in the beginning; did creation, evolution, etc. just all start with chance?

The assertion that creation started by chance is one of atheism, it has little to do with evolution. Evolution can be looked at as the way God created, which, leaves little up to chance.

Evolution deals with biology and the changes in species over time.

When looking at creation and comparing a literal biblical view (commonly called Young Earth Creation) with mainstream science, you need to include an examination of cosmology, geology, physics, chemistry, and biology.

 

[mo.mentum]

I say NO. My reason tells me that in order for all the systems that we see around us to be so perfectly tuned for human life is a little more than chance.​

I see the fulfillment of a purpose in Creation to have mankind be able to observe and study it. To discover how God has created.​

I paste this from one of my favourite sites, PM me for full reference:​

Taking the physical variables into account, what is the likelihood of a universe giving us life coming into existence by coincidence? One in billions of billions? Or trillions of trillions of trillions? Or more?​

Roger Penrose, a famous British mathematician and a close friend of Stephen Hawking, wondered about this question and tried to calculate the probability. Including what he considered to be all variables required for human beings to exist and live on a planet such as ours, he computed the probability of this environment occurring among all the possible results of the Big Bang.

According to Penrose, the odds against such an occurrence were on the order of 10^10^123 to 1.

It is hard even to imagine what this number means. In math, the value 10^123 means 1 followed by 123 zeros. (This is, by the way, more than the total number of atoms 10^78 believed to exist in the whole universe.) But Penrose's answer is vastly more than this: It requires 1 followed by 10^123 zeros.

Or consider: 10^3 means 1,000, a thousand. 10^10^3 is a number that that has 1 followed by 1000 zeros. If there are six zeros, it's called a million; if nine, a billion; if twelve, a trillion and so on. There is not even a name for a number that has 1 followed by 10^123 zeros.

In practical terms, in mathematics, a probability of 1 in 10^50 means "zero probability". Penrose's number is more than trillion trillion trillion times less than that. In short, Penrose's number tells us that the 'accidental" or "coincidental" creation of our universe is an impossibility.

Concerning this mind-boggling number Roger Penrose comments:

This now tells how precise the Creator's aim must have been, namely to an accuracy of one part in 10^10^123. This is an extraordinary figure. One could not possibly even write the number down in full in the ordinary denary notation: it would be 1 followed by 10^123 successive 0's. Even if we were to write a 0 on each separate proton and on each separate neutron in the entire universe- and we could throw in all the other particles for good measure- we should fall far short of writing down the figure needed. (26. Roger Penrose, The Emperor's New Mind, 1989; Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny, The New York: The Free Press, 1998, p. 9)

The numbers defining the design and plan of the universe's equilibrium play a crucial role and exceed comprehension. They prove that the universe is by no means the product of a coincidence, and show us "how precise the Creator's aim must have been" as Penrose stated.

Others argue that there it could an infinite number of universes, and the fact that this one is anthropomorphic is no coincidence, since out of infinite possibilities, one must get it right. I don't see any scientific basis for infinite number of universes. This reminds me of the agrument that materialists and early physicists used in referring to our universe being infinite and static, but that too was disregarded.​

Those who remember God standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and think deeply about the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying): "Our Lord! You have not created (all) this without purpose, glory to You! Give us salvation from the torment of the Fire. (Qur'an 3:191)​

Say: "Travel in the land and see how (God) originated creation, and then God will bring forth (resurrect) the creation of the Hereafter (i.e. resurrection after death). Verily, God is Able to do all things." (Qur'an 29:20)​

 

[mo.mentum]

Actually, it all started with choice. There never would have been an "end" if Adam and Eve had not made the wrong choice.

Hmmm if God knows all, He must've had a purpose for mankind other than letting him sit around Paradise from day 1. He knew Adam and Eve would disobey. The Earth was created and existed while Adam was still in Paradise.

It is the presence of mankind in the Universe on Earth that makes everything have purpose. We are the climax of God's creation.

 

[Arikay]

As was mentioned, Evolution has nothing to do with the begining of the universe, or first cause.

First Cause:
Here is a good thread by lucaspa about 5 different possible first causes.
http://www.christianforums.com/t43923

Pobability:
Care not to get sucked into that hole, because,
A) First of all, Current theory says that the laws of science break down at the begining of the big bang, thus it is Impossible to predict any probability based on first cause.

B) There are many proccesses and things we do not know about, and thus trying to caculate the probabilities of these things becomes a guessing game.

C) If the probability of something is higher than 0, then there is a chance of it happening. No matter how small of one, there still is a chance.

(there are more, but I didnt feel like posting all of it).

However, to answer your question, Yes we could have come from chance, or we could have come from god. No one knows.

It comes down to,
Impossible to know probability VS unprovable god.

Its the fight of the century and neither will ever go down.

 

[Fiendishjester]

I don't necessarily believe that it all started by chance, but it cannot be denied that this is a possibility. Simple probability tells us that it is possible. For example, it is possible that within 5 minutes of reading this post, an alien ship will come down and blast you with some kind of unearthly weapon. This event, is, however, improbable. In the same way, although there could be a 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000 chance that the universe was created by chance, but that 1 still remains.

 

[Zoot]

Most of these "chance" numbers are meaningless. Not enough parameters are given for them to have meaning. If I have a deck of 52 cards, there's a 1 in 52 chances of me drawing the Jack of Hearts (me). But if I draw cards from decks over and over for weeks on end, the chances of me drawing the Jack of Hearts at least once increases closer and closer to 1 in 1.

This talk about "the probability of proteins forming randomly" or whatever is meaningless until, among other things, time frames are given. Are we talking about proteins forming randomly sometime in the next 10 seconds? Well, very very unlikely. But if we're talking about situations in which chemicals are mixing and reforming over and over, thousands of combinations a day, 365 days in a year, over millions of years, the chances are significantly changed.

 

[Arikay]

Not to mention the talk of proteins forming "randomly" is pointless to begin with. Since they dont form randomly, they form based on the laws of physics and chemistry. Thus its not random to begin with.

Then your next step would be, ok then, what are the chances that the laws of physics would align in a way that allows the basic building blocks of life to happen?
You would have to go back to the begining of the universe, before the laws of physics were formed. If there were no laws of physics, then we have nothing to base our probability on, and thus it is impossible to calculate the probability of our laws of physics forming.

 

[ZaraDurden]

With the probability of the universe being created and life coming into existance through abiogenesis, I feel many people often look at this question backwards. People feel that since the chances of these things happening are so incredibly small, that we must have been put here by a higher being with some purpose in mind.

It is a christian belief that we are the apex of god's creation, and this belief plays into this line of thinking. I think sometimes people forget-- the universe does not need humans to exist. If any of those conditions were slightly off, well humans might not be here and the universe would. If any of the conditions were different, the universe might not be here, and there would be no existance.

Just because its hard to believe, doesnt mean its not true.

 

[Anthony]

I don't necessarily believe that it all started by chance, but it cannot be denied that this is a possibility. Simple probability tells us that it is possible. For example, it is possible that within 5 minutes of reading this post, an alien ship will come down and blast you with some kind of unearthly weapon. This event, is, however, improbable. In the same way, although there could be a 1 in 10000000000000000000000000000000 chance that the universe was created by chance, but that 1 still remains.

The problem is chance is not an thing nor is it an effect. Chance cannot create nor cause anything. When you flip a coin, chance doesn't cause nor determine what side the coin will land.

 

[Arikay]

But there is a chance that a quantum fluctuation (an uncaused event) started the universe.

There is also a chance that everything that can happen, does happen, each in a parallel universe. Since we are alive, we were most likely born into a universe that supports life.

 

[ObbiQuiet]

Or this could all be a dream. *starts waving his hands mystically*

 

[revolutio]

Actually, it all started with choice. There never would have been an "end" if Adam and Eve had not made the wrong choice.

But God created them with the knowledge of which choice they would make did he not? Such is the nature of omniscience. So can you really say that not having an 'end' was an option?

Or this could all be a dream. *starts waving his hands mystically*

[fanboy]Wai! Cowboy Bebop movie![/fanboy]

 

[Anthony]

But there is a chance that a quantum fluctuation (an uncaused event) started the universe.

There is also a chance that everything that can happen, does happen, each in a parallel universe. Since we are alive, we were most likely born into a universe that supports life.

You're correct we were born into a universe that supported life... at the time we were born. It didn't always support or better it didn't always have life, as we know it.

"quantum fluctuations" . . this explains how the universe was created? Or are we back to "It happen by chance again" ?

 

[Arikay]

Quantum fluctutions is one of the possible first causes for the universe. Taken from Lucaspas thread about 5 possible first causes of the universe.

You're correct we were born into a universe that supported life... at the time we were born. It didn't always support or better it didn't always have life, as we know it.

"quantum fluctuations" . . this explains how the universe was created? Or are we back to "It happen by chance again" ?

 

[theomnifish]

For those people that insist that since it semms that the probability of evolution occuring the way it has and/or the universe forming itself into it the way it is today is very miniscule and therefore those events could not have happened just by chance:

If I could calculate the probability of all the events in human history that had to take place in order for you to be born, that probability would be very small. So, according to your logic, you do not exist.

 

[the_malevolent_milk_man]

The average male creates billions of sperm over his lifetime, as did his father, and his father, and his father, etc... The odds of each of those sperm winning their swimming race is astronimical even if you only go back to your great grandfather. Take that back a hundred generations and you'll fry your calculator trying to figure it out.


The first cause (of both the universe and life)doesn't concern me much right now because of the limited data. There are a few theories that I like but I have my reservations about them all. It's impossible to discern with any certainity which is true due to limited evidence and understanding. Anybody claiming that they know for 100% how the universe started is a fool.

 

[Jet Black]

Chance cannot create nor cause anything.

that is your opinion, it is also wrong. chance creates winners and losers. we are winners.

 

[tankiawee]

You see, the only reason why we are discussing this is because we are here. No matter the probabilities. For you to be able to be exactly where you are in this world today, the probability is also extremely small. In fact, even for the sequence of events that caused you to reach any point in your life, the probability is so small. (someone post a short narrative and I'll illustrate)