Israel's future and Pat: Your view

Shogun 144 · Jan 31, 2006

HMM.....

I just want to say what I think here, because I don't think I'll have any peace until I do.

Israel, the Jewish people I mean, is God's people. They have been that way since the LORD made his covenant with Abraham. And as I understand it GOD never ends his covenants. Which means that the old covenant with Abraham still stands correct? Which means Israel are still GODs special people.

Since Jesus (or as he is known amongst his people: Yeshua) came and died for our sins there has been a new covenant under his blood. However, Jesus did NOT destroy the old laws or the old covenant. He fulfilled them. Did not Jesus say that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it? As far as I understand when we become new creatures in Christ we are grafted onto the tree of Abraham, which in my understanding means that we become God's special people with the Jews.

Christians have never displaced the Jewish people, but have become God's people together with them. This is not to say the Jewish people do not need to accept Jesus. Everyone must accept Christ to be saved and enter into Heaven. But it just means that because of Abraham, the friend of God, the Jews are still special.

On the State of Israel:

Consider this, since 1948 the State of Israel has been under constant fire from the Islamic Arab nations surrounding them (due to in fact the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael) and have thoroughly trounced them ever since. Now the very fact that the Jewish people have a nation again after 2,000 years is amazing enough. But to have never lost a war in the short history of the modern State is.... wow. I think that this means that God is with Israel and protecting them, otherwise the State of Israel would have been wiped out before now.

Also I believe that the State of Israel's creation was foretold in the Bible and is an important mark on the way to the End Times, and the Glorious Return of Jesus. This means that God must think that the modern State is important.

Plus I think that the Bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who do not will be cursed. I take this to mean that we should love the Jewish people and support the modern State.
Not only that, but consider this if you will. GOD gave the Holy Land to the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not Abraham, Ishmael, and his prosperity. The land of the Israel belongs to the Jewish people by right of covenant; the Arabs (the sons and daughters of Ishmael) have no right or claim to that land. And unless Im reading the Bible wrong GOD doesnt break his covenants.

Thank you for the time to read this and may Jesus bless you.

Your Brother in Christ,
Shogun 144

Fotios · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
HMM.....

I just want to say what I think here, because I don't think I'll have any peace until I do.

Israel, the Jewish people I mean, is God's people. They have been that way since the LORD made his covenant with Abraham. And as I understand it GOD never ends his covenants. Which means that the old covenant with Abraham still stands correct? Which means Israel are still GOD’s special people.

Since Jesus (or as he is known amongst his people: Yeshua) came and died for our sins there has been a new covenant under his blood. However, Jesus did NOT destroy the old laws or the old covenant. He fulfilled them. Did not Jesus say that he did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it? As far as I understand when we become new creatures in Christ we are grafted onto the tree of Abraham, which in my understanding means that we become God's special people with the Jews.

Christians have never displaced the Jewish people, but have become God's people together with them. This is not to say the Jewish people do not need to accept Jesus. Everyone must accept Christ to be saved and enter into Heaven. But it just means that because of Abraham, the friend of God, the Jews are still special.

On the State of Israel:

Consider this, since 1948 the State of Israel has been under constant fire from the Islamic Arab nations surrounding them (due to in fact the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael) and have thoroughly trounced them ever since. Now the very fact that the Jewish people have a nation again after 2,000 years is amazing enough. But to have never lost a war in the short history of the modern State is.... wow. I think that this means that God is with Israel and protecting them, otherwise the State of Israel would have been wiped out before now.

Also I believe that the State of Israel's creation was foretold in the Bible and is an important mark on the way to the End Times, and the Glorious Return of Jesus. This means that God must think that the modern State is important.

Plus I think that the Bible says that those who bless Israel will be blessed and those who do not will be cursed. I take this to mean that we should love the Jewish people and support the modern State.
Not only that, but consider this if you will. GOD gave the Holy Land to the descendents of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not Abraham, Ishmael, and his prosperity. The land of the Israel belongs to the Jewish people by right of covenant; the Arabs (the sons and daughters of Ishmael) have no right or claim to that land. And unless I’m reading the Bible wrong GOD doesn’t break his covenants.

Thank you for the time to read this and may Jesus bless you.

Your Brother in Christ,
Shogun 144

Physical Israel and the Jews have been replaced by the Church and Christians. The Old Covenant has Passed and the New Covenant has been Inaugerated, God's people are those people inside his churches.

John 1

11 He came unto his own (Israel), and his own received him not. (Used the Romans to Kill him) 12 But as many as received him (Jews and Gentiles alike'), to them gave he power to become the sons of God (part of the Church), even to them that believe on his name:

OnTheWay · Jan 31, 2006

The Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD was God's way of showing the old covenant was taken away by destorying the last earthly symbol of it. As Jesus often quoted, God desires mercy not sacrafice.
The NT is clear as to who Israel is, those that are Christ's.
Matthew 8:11-12
And I tell you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob at the feast in the kingdom of Heaven. But the children of the kingdom will be thrown out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
As St. Paul tells us God is not interested in your ethnicity, but whether you have taken up your cross and followed after Christ. He also tells us if you want to be Abraham's heir then you must belong to Christ.
Other than the same repeated OT verses I haven't even seen a despensationalist attempt a Scriptural defense of their views. The OT is read only in light of the NT.

Shogun 144 · Jan 31, 2006

I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with OnThewWay that God is no longer pleased with sacrifices and cares not for ethnicity.

However......

Jesus did not end the Old Covenant, he fufilled it. The Jewish People are still God's people and we through Christ can be so too with them. I am not saying that the Jews do not need to accept Jesus and become new creatures in him. But they are still God's special people.

OnTheWay · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with OnThewWay that God is no longer pleased with sacrifices and cares not for ethnicity.

However......

Jesus did not end the Old Covenant, he fufilled it. The Jewish People are still God's people and we through Christ can be so too with them. I am not saying that the Jews do not need to accept Jesus and become new creatures in him. But they are still God's special people.

John 1:11-12
He came to his own and his own people did not accept Him, and the world did not recongize Him. But to those who did accept him he gave power to become childred of God, to those who believed in His name.

What you need to get passed is that the old covenant does not exist side by side with a new covenant. The old covenant was transformed into the new covenant. So no, it was not destory, it was remade in Christ just as the world was remade in Christ and all creation with it.
Anyone that accepts Christ is, as St. Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
The Church of Christ are God's special and chosen people, the house of Israel. As St. Paul says, "There can be neither Jew nor Greek, There can be neither salve nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female- for you are all one in CHrist Jesus. And simply by being Christ', you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).
The promise to Abraham and his heirs is not gone, simply remade in Christ. Through Christ all that come to Christ are made into the heirs of Abraham. Thus a Jew that accepts Christ is heir to Abraham just as a Greek (gentile) that accepts Christ is heir to Abraham. However, in the covenant remade if you do not accept Christ than you are not heir to the promise.
As such this constant asseration you make about the Jews still holding a "special place" is completely false. As I've pointed out there is no Scripture to support it, you are merely repeating the same heresy that you've been taught.
The salvation of mankind is open to all men, and there is nothing more special than that. You cannot occupy a higher place than with the Almighty.

GraceInHim · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with OnThewWay that God is no longer pleased with sacrifices and cares not for ethnicity.

However......

Jesus did not end the Old Covenant, he fufilled it. The Jewish People are still God's people and we through Christ can be so too with them. I am not saying that the Jews do not need to accept Jesus and become new creatures in him. But they are still God's special people.

jgonz · Jan 31, 2006

Physical Israel and the Jews have been replaced by the Church and Christians. The Old Covenant has Passed and the New Covenant has been Inaugerated, God's people are those people inside his churches.

This is Replacement Theology and is completely False. G-d has not "replaced" Israel with the Church. Jesus did not come to start a new religion. Salvation is of the Jews. Salvation came Through the Jews. Salvation is From the Jews. Say it however you want, Jesus is Jewish and that's just the way it is.

Tishri1 · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
HMM.....

I just want to say what I think here, because I don't think I'll have any peace until I do.

Israel, the Jewish people I mean, is God's people. They have been that way since the LORD made his covenant with Abraham. And as I understand it GOD never ends his covenants. Which means that the old covenant with Abraham still stands correct? Which means Israel are still GODs special people.

AMEN SHOGUN!!!!!

Tishri1 · Jan 31, 2006

OnTheWay said:
The Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD was God's way of showing the old covenant was taken away by destorying the last earthly symbol of it. As Jesus often quoted, God desires mercy not sacrafice.
The NT is clear as to who Israel is, those that are Christ's.
Matthew 8:11-12
And I tell you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob at the feast in the kingdom of Heaven. But the children of the kingdom will be thrown out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
As St. Paul tells us God is not interested in your ethnicity, but whether you have taken up your cross and followed after Christ. He also tells us if you want to be Abraham's heir then you must belong to Christ.
Other than the same repeated OT verses I haven't even seen a despensationalist attempt a Scriptural defense of their views. The OT is read only in light of the NT.

you know Jesus never said HE was gonna destroy the temple...the Romans Destroyed it...Jesus said he would raise it up in three days(an Idiom for 3 thousand years) ALSO do you even know what Feast He is talking about in Matthew?....better study to show yourself approved or you might just miss out...and find out why Abraham, Issac, and Jacob are there too, that's real important!...and also remember no one is gonna wake you up if you sleep in that day, you got to be ready, and on the right day!....If you don't know any of this you can find out FROM A JEW

GraceInHim · Jan 31, 2006

Vatican: Parts of Davids Tomb to Be Under Papal Control

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]from different news agenices.. studying this, since this has to do with Israel and the thread is about Israel.

Seems to be a done deal, something Israel signed in the Onslow Agreements..

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]http://www.isfsp.org/zion-docs.html
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/news.php3?id=91526
http://www.barrychamish.com/html/zion_coveted_rome.htm

I would like to know - WHY DOES ROME WANT THIS LAND?[/FONT][/FONT]

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

Fotios said:
Physical Israel and the Jews have been replaced by the Church and Christians. The Old Covenant has Passed and the New Covenant has been Inaugerated, God's people are those people inside his churches.

John 1

11 He came unto his own (Israel), and his own received him not. (Used the Romans to Kill him) 12 But as many as received him (Jews and Gentiles alike'), to them gave he power to become the sons of God (part of the Church), even to them that believe on his name:

Fotios,

No my friend. We have been grafted in 'with' the Believing Israel. And those of Israel, who are to come in by their belief in Christ the Messiah, will come in, as us all being One New Man in Christ, through our Mercy unto them.

HOSANNA IN THE HIGHEST,....BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!!!

Peace be on all of God's True Israel,
Connie

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

OnTheWay said:
The Roman destruction of the temple in 70 AD was God's way of showing the old covenant was taken away by destorying the last earthly symbol of it. As Jesus often quoted, God desires mercy not sacrafice.
The NT is clear as to who Israel is, those that are Christ's.
Matthew 8:11-12
And I tell you that many will come from east and west and sit down with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob at the feast in the kingdom of Heaven. But the children of the kingdom will be thrown out into the darkness outside, where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
As St. Paul tells us God is not interested in your ethnicity, but whether you have taken up your cross and followed after Christ. He also tells us if you want to be Abraham's heir then you must belong to Christ.
Other than the same repeated OT verses I haven't even seen a despensationalist attempt a Scriptural defense of their views. The OT is read only in light of the NT.

The verse that Jesus quotes does not contradict Paul's:

They fit perfectly.

IT IS WRITTEN:

Rom 11:25-28
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
KJV

Rom 10:21-11:6
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Romans 11

11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
KJV

GraceInHim · Jan 31, 2006

jsisrl said:
Fotios,

No my friend. We have been grafted in 'with' the Believing Israel. And those of Israel, who are to come in by their belief in Christ the Messiah, will come in, as us all being One New Man in Christ, through our Mercy unto them.

HOSANNA IN THE HIGHEST,....BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!!!

Peace be on all of God's True Israel,
Connie

"I tell you, (speaking to Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives) you will not see me again, until you say blessed he who comes in the name of the Lord" Jesus said in John.. forget the verse, but remember his words

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with OnThewWay that God is no longer pleased with sacrifices and cares not for ethnicity.

However......

Jesus did not end the Old Covenant, he fufilled it. The Jewish People are still God's people and we through Christ can be so too with them. I am not saying that the Jews do not need to accept Jesus and become new creatures in him. But they are still God's special people.

Yes.

IIT IS WRITTEN:

Rom 11:1-6
11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
KJV

God bless you friend,
Connie

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

GraceInHim said:
"I tell you, (speaking to Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives) you will not see me again, until you say blessed he who comes in the name of the Lord" Jesus said in John.. forget the verse, but remember his words

Uh huh,.......you got it, PUMPKIN!!!

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

OnTheWay said:
John 1:11-12
He came to his own and his own people did not accept Him, and the world did not recongize Him. But to those who did accept him he gave power to become childred of God, to those who believed in His name.

What you need to get passed is that the old covenant does not exist side by side with a new covenant. The old covenant was transformed into the new covenant. So no, it was not destory, it was remade in Christ just as the world was remade in Christ and all creation with it.
Anyone that accepts Christ is, as St. Peter says, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
The Church of Christ are God's special and chosen people, the house of Israel. As St. Paul says, "There can be neither Jew nor Greek, There can be neither salve nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female- for you are all one in CHrist Jesus. And simply by being Christ', you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise." (Galatians 3:28-29).
The promise to Abraham and his heirs is not gone, simply remade in Christ. Through Christ all that come to Christ are made into the heirs of Abraham. Thus a Jew that accepts Christ is heir to Abraham just as a Greek (gentile) that accepts Christ is heir to Abraham. However, in the covenant remade if you do not accept Christ than you are not heir to the promise.
As such this constant asseration you make about the Jews still holding a "special place" is completely false. As I've pointed out there is no Scripture to support it, you are merely repeating the same heresy that you've been taught.
The salvation of mankind is open to all men, and there is nothing more special than that. You cannot occupy a higher place than with the Almighty.

Your Mercy, to the unbelieving "Israel" for the moment, will aid them to coming to Jesus Christ. If you have this kind of Mercy for them,...then your Religion is True.

So, now show it!!!

Tishri1 · Jan 31, 2006

OnTheWay said:
As such this constant asseration you make about the Jews still holding a "special place" is completely false. As I've pointed out there is no Scripture to support it, you are merely repeating the same heresy that you've been taught.

Well then Please Hear Paul loud and clear

Romans 11:1 What I am saying is this: is it possible that God abandoned his people? Out of the question! I too am an Israelite, descended from Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God never abandoned his own people to whom, ages ago, he had given recognition. Do you not remember what scripture says about Elijah and how he made a complaint to God against Israel: 3 Lord, they have put your prophets to the sword, torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they want to kill me? 4 And what was the prophetic answer given? I have spared for myself seven thousand men that have not bent the knee to Baal. 5 In the same way, then, in our own time, there is a remnant, set aside by grace. 6 And since it is by grace, it cannot now be by good actions, or grace would not be grace at all! 7 What follows? Israel failed to find what it was seeking; only those who were chosen found it and the rest had their minds hardened; 8 just as it says in scripture: God has infused them with a spirit of lethargy; until today they have not eyes to see or ears to hear. 9 David too says: May their own table prove a trap for them, a pitfall and a snare; let that be their retribution. 10 May their eyes grow so dim they cannot see, and their backs be bent for ever. 11 What I am saying is this: Was this stumbling to lead to their final downfall? Out of the question! On the contrary, their failure has brought salvation for the gentiles, in order to stir them to envy. 12 And if their fall has proved a great gain to the world, and their loss has proved a great gain to the gentiles -- how much greater a gain will come when all is restored to them! 13 Let me say then to you gentiles that, as far as I am an apostle to the gentiles, I take pride in this work of service; 14 and I want it to be the means of rousing to envy the people who are my own blood-relations and so of saving some of them. 15 Since their rejection meant the reconciliation of the world, do you know what their re-acceptance will mean? Nothing less than life from the dead!

amen!

GraceInHim · Jan 31, 2006

jsisrl said:
Uh huh,.......you got it, PUMPKIN!!!

Thank you,,, That spirit of his words are coming still..

And right after, his disciples came to him, "Tell us Teacher, when will the end of age be" and this is when Jesus starting talking about the signs and how they would be as birth pangs.. any woman knows these feelings.. where things become closer and frequent, raise your head up, for your redemption is near.. In Jesus name

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

Shogun 144 said:
I understand what you guys are saying, and I agree with OnThewWay that God is no longer pleased with sacrifices and cares not for ethnicity.

However......

Jesus did not end the Old Covenant, he fufilled it. The Jewish People are still God's people and we through Christ can be so too with them. I am not saying that the Jews do not need to accept Jesus and become new creatures in him. But they are still God's special people.

Yes all of God's Children are honored here, and Israel (those who will come in very soon) are needing our Mercy so much right now as a Body of Christ.

Jesus Is Real · Jan 31, 2006

Tishri1 said:
Well then Please Hear Paul loud and clearamen!

Yeah I used the same verses last week.

God's Word will never return void and is fresh each day.

Israel's future and Pat: Your view

On Israel(in alphabetical order):

I don't know.

Israel should have it's land back.

Peace in the Middle East.

Something else.

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