Israel's future and Pat: Your view

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

NOW ONE STEP FURTHER, ALL:

_______________________________________________________
Now if we don't forgive our enemies,....God don't forgive us.

Who was Israel's enemies when Christ was here?------> ROME. Rome had dominion, due to their sins unto God,....God warned and then He had to carry out His Warnings. Just like a good parent has to do with their children or they will never trust them at their word and at even their words of warnings! Just like the enemy has dominion over us, in some areas of our souls, when we are being rebellion and not taking God's warnings which are all over the Gospel and The Epistles which IS TO LOVE with a PURE HEART.

Christ said, "........Love your enemies......"

They knew what Roman soldiers do to Isreali's "Love them, they thought??? "What is this new word from the man?" they all said.

TODAY--------> Now who is Israel's enemies, as Christ is here with us in The Body of believers?--------> COLOR=Red]THE WHOLE MIDDLE EAST and EUROPE and others. But actually it's the WHOLE UNGODLY WORLD.

Christ said, "........Love your enemies......" [/COLOR]
______________________________________________________

LOVE YOUR FELLOW ARAB,.....forgive (take no account of wrong) all the bombings, forgive (take no account of wrong) all the kidnappings, forgive all the shootings, all the terrorist attacks of all kinds!
FORGIVE THEM ALL!

Did Christ chang now?
What about your enemies,.....your mom, dad, past boy friends?
Ask God to show you your heart,.....where that bitterness is,....it's there.

:o
I too ask God,
Connie

GraceInHim · Jan 20, 2006

jsisrl said:
NOW ONE STEP FURTHER, ALL:

_______________________________________________________
Now if we don't forgive our enemies,....God don't forgive us.

Who was Israel's enemies when Christ was here?------> ROME.

Christ said, "........Love your enemies......"

They knew what Roman soldiers do to Isreali's "Love them, they thought??? "What is this new word from the man?" they all said.

TODAY: Now who is Israel's enemies, as Christ is here with us in The Body of believers?--------> THE WHOLE MIDDLE EAST and EUROPE and others. But actually it's the WHOLE UNGODLY WORLD.

Christ said, "........Love your enemies......"
______________________________________________________

LOVE YOUR FELOW ARAB,.....forgive (take no account of wrong) all the bombings, forgive (take no account of wrong) all the kidnappings, forgive all the shootings, all the terrorist attacks of all kinds!
FORGIVE THEM ALL!

Did Christ chang now?
What about your enemies,.....your mom, dad, past boy friends, girl friends, or that friend right now (who you might be thinking that isn't being your friend to you, your boss, that co-worker you know who that person is--yeah that one!?

Ask God to show you your heart,.....where that bitterness is,....it's there.

:o
I too ask God to show me my heart,
Connie

the people who kill others in the name of a God, are lost... they think they truly are with God.. ask God to take my feelings of hate, sorrow and other feelings which are of the flesh and give it to God and ask to take it away from me.. give it to him, he will heal our hearts if we truly have our hearts, minds and soul with him as Jesus said to.. things will get worse in this world.. and why should I judge, when God will do this in the end???

give it to God..

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

GraceInHim said:
amen Jsisrl.,, *thumbs up*

Hey I like your new Arvatar!!!
Thumbs back to you, Sister of The Most High King!!!

I love you today, pumpkin!!! (name of affection in Christ)

GraceInHim · Jan 20, 2006

jsisrl said:
Hey I like your new Arvatar!!!
Thumbs back to you, Sister of The Most High King!!!

I love you today, pumpkin!!! (name of affection in Christ)

thanks.. wanna keep Jesus in my pc with me.. love him too much.. and love you also.. sweetpea

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

GraceInHim said:
the people who kill others in the name of a God, are lost... they think they truly are with God..

GraceInHim,

Yes it's a valid point,......and worthy to answer repentant hearts I preceive.

Now others thought they were 'with God' when they killed Christ.
They TOO WERE LOST.
Dead in their trespasses and sins.
BUT,....... While they were yet sinning, CHRIST DIED FOR US,.....and THEM TOO!

GraceInHim said:
ask God to take my feelings of hate, sorrow and other feelings which are of the flesh and give it to God and ask to take it away from me.. give it to him, he will heal our hearts if we truly have our hearts, minds and soul with him as Jesus said to.. things will get worse in this world.. and why should I judge, when God will do this in the end???

give it to God..

GraceInHim,

Now your in your right and Spiritual-Mind and Godly Heart!
We forgive all,.....accually we forgive an offense before one even happens,
we walk in forgiveness!! Leaving God's Wrath to GOD'S OWN POWER,....never the power of our own hurts and our own lusts for revenge.

Look...God knows has Law's that take care of them, and you.
And even me, when we blantenly practice sin unto even more sin. The Bible calls it "from evil to evil." :o

Remember I had my son kidnapped from an Arab,.....I had to DIE for what I knew I could do to avenge myself.....and this flesh wanted to Mama-Bear rip his head off from the shoulders! But the wrath of man, works NOT the righteousness of God. :cry: See my blogs story: POST #7 http://www.christianforums.com/t2279604-christian-ghost-hunter.html&page=3

LOVE TO YOU,
connie

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

GraceInHim said:
thanks.. wanna keep Jesus in my pc with me.. love him too much.. and love you also.. sweetpea

two sweet-peas in a pod, eh?

COOL!!

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

GraceInHim jsisrl's friend!!! said:
ask God to take my feelings of hate,

GraceInHim,
Just for it's own sake in learning:

Why do you hate them, precious?

GraceInHim · Jan 20, 2006

jsisrl said:
GraceInHim,

Just for it's own sake in learning:

Why do you hate them, precious?

do not anymore.. there were people I hated.. do you think muslim? I feel bad for them thier teachers are not teaching correct to them.. blind guides.. but think Jesus will open eyes.. opened mine did he?

God only knows the beginning to end and it is like a big circle.. we have to go back to read in OT to read the NT.. get it all right.. there are many things not known.. Daniel ch12.. close the book???

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

GraceInHim said:
do not anymore.. there were people I hated.. do you think muslim? I feel bad for them thier teachers are not teaching correct to them.. blind guides.. but think Jesus will open eyes.. opened mine did he?

God only knows the beginning to end and it is like a big circle.. we have to go back to read in OT to read the NT.. get it all right.. there are many things not known.. Daniel ch12.. close the book???

I don't think anything..........before I'm told.

circle: YOU CATCH ON FAST!!

DANIEL 12: ,.......

LOLOLOLO,.......you crack me up pumpkin

....you might have heard me heavy chuckling from where you are even!!!

____________________
Daniel 12

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time:....................OPPS.........THAT'S RIGHT......CLOSE THE BOOK!!! LOL LOL LOL

still chuckling........
Connie

PS...........I JUST LOVE THAT PUPPY AT YOUR FEET!!

Jesus Is Real · Jan 20, 2006

FIRST TO THE JEW THEN TO THE GENTILES TO EMBRACE:

1. Israel had their crises of belief, and failed but not as a whole.
Like in the Wilderness, many were destroyed of the Destroyer,
but not as a whole,.....Joshua and Caleb led them in the Battle!!!

[bible]Romans 11:11-12[/bible]
[bible]Romans 11:24-25[/bible]

2. Gentiles are in their crises of belief too and many have failed too, but if they return back to their FIRST LOVE HE will receive them back again!

[bible]Romans 11:13-15[/bible]
[bible]Romans 11:18-21[/bible]
[bible]Romans 11:26-27[/bible]

NOW "KNOWING" AND EVEN BELIEVING THIS DOESN'T punch our tickets into heaven,.......but if God is rooting the sins of the flesh nature out of us and trusting Him when He comes to say things to you like "what is that?" where we don't ignore HIS VOICE then we can be sure that the Holy Spirit IS IN US as a down-payment of OUR SALVATION. But we can lose it all, just as some of the children of Israel did in the wilderness even after being led out by Moses they didn't enter the Promised Land, but perished.

And all over again it happened, when Jesus came,.......Jesus came to led them out of sin, but they died in their sins because of unbelief.

Like Israel, like the whole world. They are all PEOPLE. Their all humans.
They have hurts by others, and can't see God Love, because the hurts are so close to them.....they won't forgive. But if they do, God will draw near to them. And their unbelief was to our gain,.....so that our gain might be to their Salvation,...and their Salvation will be but LIFE FROM THE DEAD!!!

Notice the words:
1. Casting away of them
2. reconciling
3. receiving of them
4. life from the dead
[bible]Romans 11:15[/bible]

Priests are called to function together! (Lev. 9:1)
Perfect peace has those who's mind is stayed on THEE because He trusts in THEE,
Connie

P.S.
"Stayed" = 'To be propped up,'.......whos mind is propped up leaning upon THEE.

"Trusts in THEE" = 'To confide in,'.......because He confides (he hides nothing from God) in THEE.

.

KEPLER · Jan 21, 2006

jsisrl said:
Kepler,

Well hello there, back!
Since you brought up Daniel 9, let's look at it together ok?

Ahh, you might want to print this out, this is not for
the light reader who sometimes doesn't have a lot of time, but
print it out if you want too and take your time, I know I have to
take my time with things. Now I'm reading from the KJV but if
you read from another translation (not knocking them) but it
may conflict with what you have previously been taught. So
go carefully over in your Bible so that you can make a choice
for the Word of God rather than the traditions of men.

This is not about your church or mine.
Nor a doctrine verses anothers doctrine, ok?
This whole doctrine is about our death with Jesus Christ to
understand and hear what is to come through His Holy Spirit
of Promise! That said,.......

DEFINITION:
But we all can clearly see that it's about Jesus (yes) but about
Him dealing with "Israel" (again as a nation) who are secular-Israel
and those who are Religious and the pagan of "Israel." In other words,
those who call themselves "Israel" in the Land of Israel, Israel by blood,
by race. The natural branch, we are the wild branch who have been grafted
in. But God's addressing towards Daniel "The natural branch."

Isn't it strange how we have to define this so many times.

NOW:
One thing with Israel is they want to start going again the 'daily Sacrifices' and to set up their Temple in Jerusalem to have a Holy of Holies again: Jesus calls it "in the holy place" (Matt. 24:15b). This is common knowledge through out the whole world. And Daniel 8-9 at least mentions the "sacrifices and oblations" while Jesus mentions 'the holy place' which is The Holy of Holies inside the Temple. We can't argue about this now, IT IS WRITTEN.

Now regarding the Sacrifice and the Temple in this time, is no Accident,.....it's IN GOD'S TIMING for this to happen!

DANIEL 9:
THIS WHOLE TOPIC, IN DANIEL 9 is Yes about JESUS, your right---and.
It's also about what God's going to do with ISRAEL (definition named above).
And what he allows to happen through THE ANTI-CHRIST.
So, with all due respect unto you, there is not any "period", as you believe after, naming Jesus in Dan. 9. For, actually, there are many things going on and you must see them, if you can. And If I can, communicate it to the both of us, while reading GOD'S WORD.

I get pretty lengthy at times,.......so bear with me, please.

Now Jesus Christ opened wide this "Daniel seal" when He was here, HE IS GOD!! And there is nothing hidden, He spoken nothing in secret, right?
So, if we love "The Truth" it won't be thrown down from our hearts.

________________________________________________________
VERY IMPORTANT:
But it can only be "Israel" who makes the "Holy Sacrifices" in the pleasant land <-----the Promised Land. Physically speaking, God will have His end with Israel for Salvation while some of Israel (who are not all Israel) the end will be damnation since they've stayed in their own disbelief.
Which is our ends too, for either or.

IT'S ABOUT----> "Rom 11:28b but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. which is "ISRAEL" who God first began to teach them about Sacrifices and Oblations. Now many of them will be saved if they stay not in their unbelief.
__________________________________________________________

In God's language in the Old Testament: THIS IS THE ANTI-TRUTH
In God's language in the New Testament:THIS IS THE ANTI-CHRIST
Daniel 8:9-109 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
",....one,...came forth a little horn,..."
A very bad dude! Let me introduce you to "Satan" in those verses of 9-10.

Now let's these this out, ok?

In Daniel 8 a vision is told.
At the end of this same Daniel 8, understanding of this same vision, in detail is told. That 'little horn' comes with great destruction. This "little horn" is NOT JESUS CHRIST. Nope it ain't. But let's see, ok?

THUS COMES ANTI-TRUTH ON TO THE SCENE:
YES WE WILL ALSO SEE "JESUS CHRIST" AS WELL:

Let's look!

Daniel 8:22-2322 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Notice the next verse:
Dan 8:24
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power:

Now you know why I did my introduction with 'Satan' ealier.

Dan 8:24
and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. <-------Still doesn't look like Jesus Christ here, to me,....does it you?

Daniel 8 tells of how long the days of (Daniel 9 "Covenant") will last.

Daniel 9 confirms that the Covenant will be broken in the middle of the Week.

It is Written:

Dan 9:21
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

Dan 9:22-23
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.

23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.

This verse (24) is about 3 mentions:
1. "thy people" -------> Gabriel was talking to Daniel AN ISREALITE.
2. the Holy City (Jerusalem, Daniel know where that is)
3. The Most Holy (Jesus, Daniel know to be GOD--Who is JESUS)

Dan 9:24
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

NOTICE THE WORD: JERUSALEM (Daniel knows where this place is
Dan 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: ------> But the rest of the verse talks about THE VISION IN DANIEL 8.
_______MESSIAH IS CUT OFF BUT NOT FOR HIMSELF_________
And the vision continues to be told about.

Now, let's review:
This little horn is so far called:
1. 'a king ' (Dan. 8:23)
2. 'the prince' that shall come (Dan. 9:26b)

IN COMES:

THE ANTI-TRUTH:
THE ANTI-CHRIST:
Jesus mentioning this too here:
Matt 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
Daniel 9:26-2726 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
v.26: ,...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

Look:
",....and the people of the prince (this Anti-Truth/Christ) shall confirm a covenant with many for ONE WEEK. The word "Week" lets you know that it's about "Israel" along with 'many.' He's not talking about with Mexico alone or some other place, remember it's Gabriel talking TO DANIEL AN ISRAELITE who loves God and who will receive "his lot" (Dan. 12:13) in The PROMISED LAND in the end of the days. Now we can all pick up 'Spiritual meanings here' but this is all going to happen literally with this little-horn, and with Israel and with many and which at that time hadn't happened yet with Jesus-The Messiah. So, if it has happened Literally with The Messiah it will Literally happen with:
1. Israel and with
2. many who join the Anti-Truth/Christ. Many will take His Evil Mark/Name.

Regarding the word 'desolate in verse 26:'
Does this bring your spirit-man to recall Matthew 24?
One question that was asked, that fits rightly here to say is when they asked, "and what shall be the sign of THY COMING?" (Meaning Christ doesn't not come back BEFOR the sign is given,....but they are a sign bringing you to understand that HIS COMING IS NEAR. In other words, when you are stopped at a red-light, you can't move your car through the on coming traffic before you get the green-light or you will be hit.

Daniel 9:27 **God's still taking about this "prince who brings desolation."
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

So this, FALSE-PROPHET, ANTI-CHRIST, ANTI-TRUTH will cause Israel from doing their sacifieces and oblations unto THE GOD OF ISRAEL.

In conclusion:
When ever this happens,........THERE HE WILL BE.
THE ANTI-CHRIST, THE ANTI-TRUTH A FALSE PROPHET LEAGUED WITH MANY
FALSE PROPHETS THEMSELVES.
And He will be in the power of Satan, he will be of the flesh-nature:
Much in rage and anger, selfish, self-seeking, worldly and demonic which
James warns US ALL to flee these ways.
And He will bring in much war and destruction, coming in Satan's power
to "Steal, Kill and destroy:" to make desolate!
He is already a destroyer, empowered by Satan if he's living right now.
He is unsave able, twice dead this man will be who makes a covanent with
Israel for peace, but it will be a false-peace that brings in much Abominations.

So, Daniel 9 is far from ONLY BEING ABOUT "JESUS" PERIOD.
Read your own bible chapters 8 and 9, again.
I'm just watering here,.....God gives the increase not me and thank GOD it's not me who can, chuckles,...or I would probably do a bad job at it.

Love is Patient, Love is Kind,...

Peace to all who Call Upon The Name of The Lord from a Pure Heart,
Connie

UTTER BUNK, and this reflects the typical evangelical misunderstanding of Daniel 9.

There mere fact that you even TRY to discuss Gabriel's ANSWER to Daniel, without FIRST understanding what Daniel's PRAYER means (vs 1-19) PROVES that you do NOT understand Gabriel's answer.

How sad.

There is NO MENTION of anykind of ANTI-CHRIST in Daniel 9. Anyone who says so blasphemes Christ.

Kepler

Jesus Is Real · Jan 27, 2006

You normally see what God is doing with you once you walk through it.......He's mostly showing us our hearts so that we can turn from what is made manifest---what comes out of our hearts that is defiling us. When you see "impatience" that's His Will for you to see it, so that you can say there it is,.....I have impatience because "I,......" or because "I want......" then you'll see that it's God who IN HIS PERFECT WILL is showing you where you have Idolatry in your heart. In my heart too. Then once we don't hid it (Genesis) God can give you His Atonement so that He can more step in AND BE GOD TO YOU,...where you can rest in HIM. Then, the Cloud will move and He teaches you more to remove all those enemies off your land (your heart--anger, frustration, strife, resentment, pride etc.) so that He can HAVE A PLACE IN YOUR HEART TO PUT HIS NAME THERE.

Does that make you think about the journey in the Wilderness and into Canaan with God and The Children of Israel?

It should!

They were our examples to see that as they acted so are we acting at times. And to see How God really is in our life as He was in their lives.

We are all son's of God, those of us who call upon His name who have been Born again of His Spirit. And we are all Israel, those of us who call upon His name. We are all still in the Wilderness (of life) to get to Jesus, The Promised Land of PEACE AND REST. Just like the Children of Israel.

Any other walk,...just ~ain't~ walking with God but rather is a walk that walks right back to Egypt, and actually who wants to go live back there. We are truly just like the Children in the Wilderness and will we ever remove the enemies off the land (of our heart?)
The didn't. Will Christ in us,....led us to finish the WORK in our hearts? Jesus FINISHED THE WORK OF REDEMPTION but we have to enter THE BATTLE WITH HIM.

Come on you guys,.....JUMP IN!!

Connie

Jesus Is Real · Jan 27, 2006

KEPLER,

Dan 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. (Revelation clearly tells us that this working is of SATAN)

11 Yea, he (this little horn mind you) magnified himself (JUST LIKE HIS FATHER WHO IS THE KING OF PRIDE) even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
KJV

-----------------------------

-------------> YOU GOING TO CALL THIS "JESUS CHRIST" -----------> "and it cast down the truth to the ground;

GOD DOES NOT DENY HIMSELF,....GOD IS NOT A TYRANT.
THIS BEASTS HATES THE TRUTH, SO IT THROWS IT DOWN TO THE GROUND.
DOES IT REMIND YOU OF HOW MANY HAVE BEEN KILLED BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE TRUTH IN THEIR HEART?
JESUS CHRIST DOES NOT BECOME THIS LITTLE HORN ON A BEAST.

______________________________________________________
NOTE:

Dan 7:7
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
KJV

Rev 12:3-4
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, (THE POWER THAT'S BEHIND "THE LITTLE HORN"--HE HAS ALL THE TRAITS JUST LIKE HIS FATHER THE DEVIL) having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. KJV

There is NO MENTION of anykind of ANTI-CHRIST in Daniel 9. Anyone who says so blasphemes Christ.

How about "ANTI-TRUTH"?
And the Anointing is in THE TRUTH, thus it's "ANTI-CHRIST."
If you don't see this yet, np,....just wait on your calling to see this, for Lo I have told you.
The TRUTH MAKES US BOTH FREE AS ONE FAMILY IN GOD.

________________________________________
THESE ARE ALL WHAT GOD WANTS US TO TAKE OUT OF OUR LIVES IF WE ARE TO FOLLOW ON WITH HIM:
1. King of Pride
2. Throwing down The Truth
3. Not being a daily sacrifice to God in Holiness and Righteiousness
4. To stop the trampling of our feet towards others out of frustration and anger
6. Where we are not being a Place of Sanctuary for God
7. Where we want to devour and bite back and murmur and complain

Peace to all who Call upon The Lord from a pure heart,
Connie

indra_fanatic · Jan 27, 2006

christianmarine said:
Pat Robertson maybe? Anyways, the land that Israel occupies today is theirs. Noone should be distributing it up to another people. Now, imagine this: The White man took the Native Americans land from them. Imaging the UN saying that the Native Americans are allowed to have their land back, and all others will have to congregate their community in a small portion of the land. That's the situation that confronts Israel today.

Bad analogy. None of the Zionist colonists came with guns... much less armies and smallpox-infected blankets. In fact, Jewish militant groups were not formed in the Middle East at all until after World War II--after the Zionists had already been subjected to decades of British-abetted Arab pogroms.

You will have to try again on this one.

OnTheWay · Jan 27, 2006

There is an easy solution. Create an official Palestein to rule the Arabic population and separate the land based on population. Every five years the population will be reviewed and the land ownership will be revised accordingly. This provides a means for the Arabs not to have to live under a government that considers them second class citizens and imposes aparthied on them and separates the Jews which will provide better security and fewer attacks.
The land review process forces the Jews to "show their hand" about whether they are serious about Israel or not. If they are they need to start living there and if they continue the current trend of moving back to the west then Israel goes away.

Edial · Jan 27, 2006

Wavy said:
Firstly, Christian rejection and hate of Jews has survived from the first-century. Many early "Christians" were anti-semitic. Many of the so called "church fathers" were anti-semitic. Martin Luther was anti-semitic.

It is a common occurence throughout the civilizations when certain groups of people are hated by others.

It is also expected that in a spiritually founded societies a person's beliefs are often hard to separate from the person himself.
Religion makes a man.
Let's say you have a cultist of a type that wishes to sacrifice people as his method of worship.
I do not think one can have warm feeling towards that person, because his beliefs make that person who he is.

Next, if a Judaic persecutes a believer he persecutes Christ himself.

AC 9:1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to the Way, whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem. 3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
AC 9:5 "Who are you, Lord?" Saul asked.
"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting," he replied.

It is as simple as that.
Can one have warm feelings towards such a person?

Also, Martin Luther was not an anti-semite. He was an anti-Judaic. There is a difference.

Wavy said:
Secondly, the "Jews" are not all Israel. They are found in all nations and make up millions of people all over the world regardless if they know it or not.

Wavy said:
Thirdly, there is a remnant from both houses of Israel (Romans 11:5), which I believe is Nazarene Israel, or the followers of the Way, as they were also called in the first century (they were the historical first followers of Messiah)..

Agreed.
I thought I clearly separated the Jews from the Judaics.

Wavy said:
Fourthly, Messiah didn't call all Jews "children of the devil". He was speaking to those who were trying to kill him in that specific passage. Indeed, when the Spirit came on Shavuot in Acts 2, torah guarding Jews and those from the nations (who I believe were Ephraim Israelm, and Peter collectively called them all "men of Israel") were present. Calling all Jews "children of the devil" is a lawless, gentile, erroneous view that, as I have said, is evident all over first century writings..

I thought when you quoted my post you would note the context.

I am pro-Israel. Because the Bible is pro-Israel, due to God's fond feelings towards the Patriarchs. But I do not know the Patriarchs as God does. So, I would refuse to use my "natural" anti-Israel reasoning.

Yet I am against Israel, since the majority of the Jews in there are Judaics that persecute the believers fiercely.

So, there must be a balance.

I stressed that I am referring to the Judaics that persecute believers. These types would easily kill Christ.

Wavy said:
I believe much of Christianity and Judaism and the way they treat and view each other is what is mentioned in Isaiah 11:13. Eventually, this will cease. When the majority of Judah comes to Messiah and when Ephraim (the fullness of the nations - Genesis 48:19; Romans 11:25) realizes their heritage and comes to torah and stops trying to convert Jews to their lawless, pagan form of beliefs in a "church"!

"Church" is a manifestation of "lawless, pagan form of beliefs"?

This tell me at least a couple of things concerning your post.
1. You definitely understand a concept of not liking an entire group of people based on their religious beliefs.
2. Since Jesus Christ (the Messiah) is the head of the church, you might want to reconsider what you call the church.

Ed

Edial · Jan 27, 2006

Wavy said:
...christianity will fail trying to convert judah to messiah with their system. it's not logically or biblically possible.

Why impossible?

Edial · Jan 27, 2006

Wavy said:
You are exactly right! This is what I try to get people to see!

Those who condemn Judah because they gave Messiah over (according to Yahweh's own design) are in error because Messiah specifically said "Father, FORGIVE THEM". Are we to say he was denied his request?

People do not like Judaics who persecute the Christians.
Because when they persecute them they persecute Christ.
I think this is clear to all.
And since many Christians like Christ very much, they take the fact that he was dealt with in such a manner quite personally.

This is a common pattern in all the relationships, religious or otherwise.
If someone kills my child - I clearly do not like him.
If someone approves of that other person killing my child - I also do not like him.
If someone persecutes (like in this case) believers in Israel just because they are believers - I also do not like them.

I hope you understand that. It is straight forward.

Also, the verse you just quoted was taked out of context.

LK 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." And they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Currently, the Judaics that persecute Christians in Israel know very well what they are doing.

And again, having said that, I will repeat this. My impression of the role of a Christian in relation to the Judaic is that to help them when they come to you for help.
But unless they receive Christ as their Savior and bless him - they are our enemies as far as the gospel is concerned.

RO 11:28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,...

And we should treat them as such - we should love them.

Yet, we should not like what they are doing and fall head over heels just because they came from Abraham.

I think KEPLER was correct. It looks like a certain form of idolatry. Quite disturbing.

Thanks,
Ed

psalms 91 · Jan 27, 2006

it is very clear that those who bless israel and pray for her peace are blessed, those who would give away her land are cursed

KEPLER · Jan 27, 2006

bill16652 said:
it is very clear that those who bless israel and pray for her peace are blessed, those who would give away her land are cursed

Clear where, Bill? In your own mind perhaps, but not from Scripture. K

Israel's future and Pat: Your view

On Israel(in alphabetical order):

I don't know.

Israel should have it's land back.

Peace in the Middle East.

Something else.

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