Israel's future and Pat: Your view

[horuhe00]

What do your Christian belives sway towards?

 

[Diane_Windsor]

What do your Christian belives sway towards?

1. There will never be peace.
2. If the Palestinians want the land then they are going to have to conquer Israel.
3. Isreal would not go down without a fight.
4. Thus war is inevitable IMO.
5. I don't believe that God cares who has the land.

DIANE

 

[servant4ever]

I agree... I don't think God really cares if Israel has their land back or not... the real Israel are the Christians today.

 

[Pyrogenesis]

The Isralites are God's chosen people; God gave them the land, and it's been theirs ever since. I don't think that God wants them giving away parts of their inheritence to the people He once ordered them to destroy completely!

There are many who think that Ariel Sharon has had these strokes because he is giving the land away. I'm not entirely sure about that, but I think that if God wanted peace in exchange for land He'd keep Ariel Sharon in perfect health, because he's masterminded the biggest land/peace deals in Israel's history.

 

[HypnoToad]

Israel's future and Pat: Your view

What is "Pat"?

 

[Yusuf Evans]

What is "Pat"?
[/b][/color][/size][/b]

Pat Robertson maybe? Anyways, the land that Israel occupies today is theirs. Noone should be distributing it up to another people. Now, imagine this: The White man took the Native Americans land from them. Imaging the UN saying that the Native Americans are allowed to have their land back, and all others will have to congregate their community in a small portion of the land. That's the situation that confronts Israel today.

 

[franky67]

This is what God says about Israel in Jeremiah 31:35, 36, 37

"Thus says the Lord who gives the sun for light by day, and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night.

Who stirs up the seas so that it's waves roar.
The lord of hosts is His name.

If this fixed order departs from before Me declares the Lord, then the offspring of Israel shall cease from being a nation before Me forever.

Thus says the Lord, if the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out below, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done declares the Lord."

He will never forsake Israel, and the land is theirs forever.

It's in the book !

franky

 

[Dragons87]

A very tough nut to crack. I am in the process of reading Genesis, and was reading about Ishmael and Isaac. How does one solve a problem which is 4-5,000 years old, with all sorts of other things mixed into the concoctation?

 

[Albion]

What do your Christian belives sway towards?

As for Pat's unfortunate remark about God taking vengeance upon Sharon, I'd be a lot sympathetic IF:

1. Sharon were 37 instead of 77, and
2. God had acted while there was time to reverse policy in Gaza, not after it had been given back to the Palestinians.

As for the idea of Israel and the land, Most of the Jews of today's Israel are secular, not religious Jews, and most of them do not descend from the Jews of OT times anyway.

 

[Diane_Windsor]

As for Pat's unfortunate remark about God taking vengeance upon Sharon, I'd be a lot sympathetic IF:

1. Sharon were 37 instead of 77, and

Add to that Sharon is a rather large man. People who don't take care of themselves will have health problems.

Diane

 

[Sabra]

Dear horuhe00,

I believe that Israel has traditional right to it's promised land that was given to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and their descendants (i.e. Jews) and not to Ishmael (Abraham's son to the slave) and his descendants (i.e. Muslims) - see Genesis 21:12b for example.

I just find it weird how those terrorists from Hamass call Israel "terrorists" when they are the terrorists here. They go into crowded markets with civilians such as innocent women and children and blow them up! That is what terrorism is. The Israelies attack certain buildings where these terrorists are taking refuge. They are attacking the enemy and not the civilians (although some predictably will die as in all wars) which is allowable. The Hamass and co do not attack "the enemy" rather purposefully go after and murder innocent civilians. They are the true scum of the earth.

 

[OnTheWay]

The old covenant is no more, and the new covenant is what Christ brought. As St. Paul tells us, there is neither Jew nor Greek anymore.

I think there are far too many Christians have have taken up an incorrect near worship of the secular state of Israel. Which is in reality just one government among the nations. When you take the birth rate of the Arab population vs that of the Jewish population and combine it with the fact more Jews leave Israel every year that move in the secular state of Israel will probably cease to exist. The Church of Christ, that new Israel and royal priesthood is not affixed to any geographic location, as Christ restored the world and all places are now suitable for prayer.
Christians would do well to worry about the Great Commission and less than faulty interpertations of the book of Revelations.

 

[HolyGuardianAngels]

1. There will never be peace.
2. If the Palestinians want the land then they are going to have to conquer Israel.
3. Isreal would not go down without a fight.
4. Thus war is inevitable IMO.
5. I don't believe that God cares who has the land.

DIANE

First of all let me say... I think it's unkind to "kick a man when he's down"... Just because Sharon is a large man, does not mean he deserves to to sick as somone posted... thin people get cancer and aids and it's not due to their size!!

Next, I want to say to Diane, I truly believe that it does matter...When all is said and done... the Hebrew people will still stand as God's chosen people... I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but, I have never found a verse of Sacred Scripture where God says, He takes back the "chosen People" status He has given to Israel... No...instead, God says' things like:







[bible]Isaiah 44:1[/bible]


[bible]Isaiah 44:2[/bible]


[bible]Isaiah 44:3[/bible]


[bible]Isaiah 44:4[/bible]


[bible]Isaiah 44:5[/bible]


[bible]Isaiah 44:6[/bible]


Here we see just who is Chosen... It is as if God has added-us-into (grafted us into) and adopted us Catholic/Christian Gentiles, so that we are ~also~ Chosen... we do not take the place of Israel!! ~For we read in:






[bible]Jeremiah 12:16[/bible]





[bible]Jeremiah 12:17[/bible]




We must Learn the ways of Gods' people (Isreal) and
"unlearn what we have learned" as Yoda said.





[bible]Jeremiah 31:35[/bible]





[bible]Jeremiah 31:36[/bible]





[bible]Jeremiah 31:37[/bible]





Here we read the words "for ever" and "shall not cease".






Isreals' land; all of it, must be theirs, for God gave the land to them...
Read the book of Joshua




God Bless

 

[cygnusx1]

Pat Robertson maybe? Anyways, the land that Israel occupies today is theirs. Noone should be distributing it up to another people. Now, imagine this: The White man took the Native Americans land from them. Imaging the UN saying that the Native Americans are allowed to have their land back, and all others will have to congregate their community in a small portion of the land. That's the situation that confronts Israel today.

yes what a thought , and the Australians too !

 

[Archbishop 10-K]

I have to admit, I'm a little disturbed at how much American Christians give support to "Israel". Israel is a mostly secular state, made up by mostly secular people, with immigration policies that discriminate against Christians and non-Jews. There have been many Hebrew couples that could not invoke "right to return" to Israel because they converted to Christianity.

 

[OnTheWay]

First of all let me say... I think it's unkind to "kick a man when he's down"... Just because Sharon is a large man, does not mean he deserves to to sick as somone posted... thin people get cancer and aids and it's not due to their size!!

I don't think Sharon deserves to be sick because of his weight, all are sinners and all deserve death. I do think Sharon's health issues are probably related to the fact he is not in good physical condition, but deserve has nothing to do with it.

Next, I want to say to Diane, I truly believe that it does matter...When all is said and done... the Hebrew people will still stand as God's chosen people... I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but, I have never found a verse of Sacred Scripture where God says, He takes back the "chosen People" status He has given to Israel... No...instead, God says' things like:
Here we see just who is Chosen... It is as if God has added-us-into (grafted us into) and adopted us Catholic/Christian Gentiles, so that we are ~also~ Chosen... we do not take the place of Israel!!

That's simply not true. As St. Paul tells us:

Colossians 3:11-12

And in that image there is no room for distinction between Greek and Jew, between the circumcised and the uncircumcised, or between the barbarian and Scythian, slave and free. There is only Christ: He is everything and He is in everything. As the chose of God, then, the holy people whom he loves, you are to be clothed in heartfelt compassion, in generosity, and humility, gentleness, and patience.

Galatians 3:28-29

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female-for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And simply by being Christ's you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise.

As St. Peter says to the Christians:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a Chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.

We must Learn the ways of Gods' people (Isreal) and
"unlearn what we have learned" as Yoda said.

In reality we have to follow Christ, not worry about kosher food.

Isreals' land; all of it, must be theirs, for God gave the land to them...
Read the book of Joshua

That was before Christ, and now that Christ has come the whole world is the promised land. All places are sacred and made suitable for prayer because Christ has redeemed the fallen world. It really makes no difference whether the secular state of Israel controls Gaza or even if it exists at all.

 

[Albion]

First of all let me say... I think it's unkind to "kick a man when he's down"... Just because Sharon is a large man, does not mean he deserves to to sick as somone posted... thin people get cancer and aids and it's not due to their size!!

I took it only that being much overweight (and age 77) the idea of him being sick only because of divine retribution isn't very convincing since strokes often come to people who are overweight and elderly. I don't think anyone here is kicking a man when he's down.

Next, I want to say to Diane, I truly believe that it does matter...When all is said and done... the Hebrew people will still stand as God's chosen people... I mean, correct me if I am wrong, but, I have never found a verse of Sacred Scripture where God says, He takes back the "chosen People" status He has given to Israel..
Isaiah
Jeremiah

If that logic were applied consistently we'd all be observing all the Hebrew feastdays and Mosaic Law, etc. Don't forget that there is a New Testament, too, and that in it we find that we as followers of Christ are not just latter-day Messianic Jews. But even if what was promised to the Hebrews of OT times is held to be in force today, why assume that God's promise had nothing to do with the people being faithful to him? We do indeed find in scripture that God's outreach changed with the coming of Jesus.

 

[Maximus]

I don't think Sharon deserves to be sick because of his weight, all are sinners and all deserve death. I do think Sharon's health issues are probably related to the fact he is not in good physical condition, but deserve has nothing to do with it.



That's simply not true. As St. Paul tells us:

Colossians 3:11-12

And in that image there is no room for distinction between Greek and Jew, between the circumcised and the uncircumcised, or between the barbarian and Scythian, slave and free. There is only Christ: He is everything and He is in everything. As the chose of God, then, the holy people whom he loves, you are to be clothed in heartfelt compassion, in generosity, and humility, gentleness, and patience.

Galatians 3:28-29

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither slave nor freeman, there can be neither male nor female-for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And simply by being Christ's you are that progeny of Abraham, the heirs named in the promise.

As St. Peter says to the Christians:

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a Chosen race, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation, a people to a personal possession to sing the praises of God who called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light.





In reality we have to follow Christ, not worry about kosher food.




That was before Christ, and now that Christ has come the whole world is the promised land. All places are sacred and made suitable for prayer because Christ has redeemed the fallen world. It really makes no difference whether the secular state of Israel controls Gaza or even if it exists at all.

Exactly.

The secular state of Israel, whose population, as I recall, is made up mostly of atheists and agnostics who happen to be ethnic Jews, is not "the chosen people."

The true Israel of God (Galatians 6:15) is Christ's Church.

One cannot reject Christ and be part of the people of God.

My own personal belief is that national Israel will survive to welcome the Antichrist as its political "Messiah" come at long last.

When many of the Jews figure out who he really is, they will come to Christ as the result of the preaching of Enoch and Elijah.

Then the end will come.

 

[OnTheWay]

Exactly.

The secular state of Israel, whose population, as I recall, is made up mostly of atheists and agnostics who happen to be ethnic Jews, is not "the chosen people."

I've seen estimates that show as little as 10 percent of the Jewish population in Israel is comprised of religious Jews. The largest bulk of the conservative movement in Israel is compised of Zionists, which is a form of ethnical nationalism and has nothing to do with the Jewish religion. There is also no shortage of religious Jews outside of Israel that aren't overly thrilled with what the state of Israel does and even more so that it does it in the name of the Jewish people.
As such fundie protestants really need to rethink this love affair with the secular state of Israel. There is no government on the face of the earth that could be called godly. Furthermore, as Christ tells us in John 14:6,
"Jesus said: I am the Way; I am Truth, and life. No one can come to the Father except through Me." It doesn't say "no gentile can come to the Father execpt through me." The passage is clear that salvation is through Christ and Christ alone. There is no salvation in the law.
The new covenant is made with the Church of whom Christ is the head. The faithful are now the heirs to Abraham and as there is no longer Jew or gentile (Colossians 3:11-12, Galatians 3:28-29, 1 Peter 2:9) the only difference that God is interested in is Christian or non-Christian.

 

[horuhe00]

Isreals' land; all of it, must be theirs, for God gave the land to them...
Read the book of Joshua

Assuming that is the true interpretation of what God wants...

Jews can fight for the land and take it. I, on the other hand, will ignore whatever they are doing because I'm fighting for eternal salvation, not a piece of desert.