Israelology

[JM]

Quote:
Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology

Summary:


Dr. Fruchtenbaum's unique and very Jewish research fills a very dangerous (replacement theology) and limiting void (actually canyon) in Christian understanding and perspective. As Christians, we look at the bible through our own limited gentile eyes, and interpret everything as if it belongs specifically to us. But, Dr. Fruchtenbaum goes through the other 90% of the bible that specifically deals with Israel (the true vine, the chosen people, the people of the covenant ) and Abraham (the friend of JHWH). After all, JHWH's entire plan for mankind is through Israel. Christianity is only a temporary (but, very uniquely blessed) solution to Israel's temporary blindness (non-belief in Jesus as the Messiah). As Paul writes "everything aforetime was written for our learning." The laws, sabbaths, history and prophecies. All of these Jewish items were written for us to learn and understand JHWH's plan and prophecies. But, this only occurs through Israel.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00071U40I/qid=1131976077/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0541167-3148862?v=glance&s=books&n=507846http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...002-0541167-3148862?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

 

[eph3Nine]

"As Christians, we look at the bible through our own limited gentile eyes, and interpret everything as if it belongs specifically to us."

Thats right! What we dont realize is that WITHOUT the epistles of Paul, right smack dab in the MIDDLE of the book, all the rest of it would be specifically written TO and ABOUT the nation Israel. And without the NEW program given to Paul, we gentiles would still be without Christ, aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

I DONT see anywhere where we are suddenly put into the status of BEING part of the commonwealth of Israel, or made party to THEIR covenants, or being given THEIR hope, or having this world as part OF our hope and calling. Those things were to Israel and Israel alone!


Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[Covenant Heart]

We read those words, "grafted in" and "share in the nourishing sap" ... (Ro 11:17).

Of course, one can say that different issues/dispensations/times/testaments/covenants/promises/people/hermeneutics, etc., etc., are at issue. With some luck, we'll be able to decompile the Bible to the point of complete uselessness. Who knows! We may be able to break syntax so completely that no word in the Bible will have any connection to any other! That way, we can "believe" every word that God has spoken while believing nothing that God has spoken.

It just goes to show you, Street Preacher, you're not the only one who has moments of cynicism.

Blessings!
Covenant Heart

 

[GLJCA]

I DONT see anywhere where we are suddenly put into the status of BEING part of the commonwealth of Israel, or made party to THEIR covenants, or being given THEIR hope, or having this world as part OF our hope and calling. Those things were to Israel and Israel alone!


Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Interesting that you would stop on Ephesians 2:12 when verse 13 says that now we, Gentiles, have been made nigh by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The word "nigh" means "at hand". We are there now. We are in the covenant of God. Why wouldn't you share the whole context? If you were to keep reading then you would see that Jesus Christ broke down the wall that seperated the Jew and the Gentile and made us one in Christ.
Eph 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father by the Spirit. We are fellowcitizens with the Old Testament saints in the household of God.

Please guys, rightly divide the Word of God and quit ignoring the passages that don't agree with your belief. That only proves that your belief is lacking.

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

Interesting that you would stop on Ephesians 2:12 when verse 13 says that now we, Gentiles, have been made nigh by the blood of Jesus Christ.
Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
The word "nigh" means "at hand". We are there now. We are in the covenant of God. Why wouldn't you share the whole context? If you were to keep reading then you would see that Jesus Christ broke down the wall that seperated the Jew and the Gentile and made us one in Christ.
Eph 2:14 ¶ For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

Both Jew and Gentile have access to the Father by the Spirit. We are fellowcitizens with the Old Testament saints in the household of God.

Please guys, rightly divide the Word of God and quit ignoring the passages that don't agree with your belief. That only proves that your belief is lacking.

GLJCA

I still dont see anything that relates to our being made privey to Israels hope and calling. I DO see that we now have access by ONE SPIRIT unto the Father, that we are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints...which but ACCENTUATES the REALITY that indeed another program has come about. We are still strangers to the covenants of promise made to Israel, but NOT strangers to God. That is the point of the passage.

We ARE made nigh by the blood of Christ..not by Israel, or her program, but by a NEW program which was hid in God and Kept SECRET until due time.

We dont ignore any passages, but as a rule stick to the topic at hand as well as we can. I believe the initial topic was how we gentiles tend to think all of the bible is about US. Clearly , its NOT.

 

[JM]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Three kinds of people mentioned:[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God -- I Corinthians 10:32[/font]​

 

[HuckFinn]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Three kinds of people mentioned:[/font]

[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God -- I Corinthians 10:32[/font]
​

The Jews and Gentiles in that context are all unsaved peoples. In the church, there is not a distinction.

 

[JM]

The Jews and Gentiles in that context are all unsaved peoples. In the church, there is not a distinction.

Huck, could you establish that context please? (non-combative quesiton)

 

[GLJCA]

Quote:
Israelology: The Missing Link in Systematic Theology

Summary:


Dr. Fruchtenbaum's unique and very Jewish research fills a very dangerous (replacement theology) and limiting void (actually canyon) in Christian understanding and perspective. As Christians, we look at the bible through our own limited gentile eyes, and interpret everything as if it belongs specifically to us. But, Dr. Fruchtenbaum goes through the other 90% of the bible that specifically deals with Israel (the true vine, the chosen people, the people of the covenant ) and Abraham (the friend of JHWH). After all, JHWH's entire plan for mankind is through Israel. Christianity is only a temporary (but, very uniquely blessed) solution to Israel's temporary blindness (non-belief in Jesus as the Messiah). As Paul writes "everything aforetime was written for our learning." The laws, sabbaths, history and prophecies. All of these Jewish items were written for us to learn and understand JHWH's plan and prophecies. But, this only occurs through Israel.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00071U40I/qid=1131976077/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0541167-3148862?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

Could you tell me what this verse is telling you?

Rom 11:17-23 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:For if God spared not the natural branches, [take heed] lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


1. What is the olive tree from scripture in the Old Testament?
2. Who was cut off of the olive tree in Romans 11:17-23?
3. Who was grafted into the Olive tree in Romans 11:17-23?
4. What does that engrafting entail?
5. Isn't the believing Gentile that is grafted into the olive tree identified with the olive tree?

I WOULD LIKE TO READ YOUR ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS. COULD YOU PLEASE ADDRESS THEM.

GLJCA

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Huck, could you establish that context please? (non-combative quesiton)

Street Preacher,

If you pick up a set of the Church Fathers you will find this to be a very common distinction. The Fathers make the very same distinction. THey do not speak of themselves as gentiles. They speak of non-believers as Gentiles.

The fathers very clearly saw the Church as the true Israel of God (made up of Jews and Gentiles) and they saw unbelieveing Jews as those who were "cut off from the Covenant people of God. You can see this in the writings of the early Fathers.

BTW: The one person in the early Church who argued that the "Pauline" writings were the only writings that pertained to the Church was the arch-heretic Marcion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[eph3Nine]

Street Preacher,

If you pick up a set of the Church Fathers you will find this to be a very common distinction. The Fathers make the very same distinction. THey do not speak of themselves as gentiles. They speak of non-believers as Gentiles.

The fathers very clearly saw the Church as the true Israel of God (made up of Jews and Gentiles) and they saw unbelieveing Jews as those who were "cut off from the Covenant people of God. You can see this in the writings of the early Fathers.

BTW: The one person in the early Church who argued that the "Pauline" writings were the only writings that pertained to the Church was the arch-heretic Marcion.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

We don't base what we believe on the "church fathers", most assuredly not, but on what Gods Word, rightly divided, says.

To even IMPLY that the ONLY PERSON who BELIEVED what God said about Paul was a heretic....LOL LOL...is typical fare for those who have yet to SEE for themselves that both the church fathers AND history books can be WRONG.

The distinction between jew and gentile was made in Times PAST. In this context, I would agree with the original poster that it means those who are unsaved, as the Church of God has no such distinction.

BTW...the context here is speaking about food sacrificed to idols.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

We don't base what we believe on the "church fathers", most assuredly not, but on what Gods Word, rightly divided, says.

To even IMPLY that the ONLY PERSON who BELIEVED what God said about Paul was a heretic....LOL LOL...is typical fare for those who have yet to SEE for themselves that both the church fathers AND history books can be WRONG.

The distinction between jew and gentile was made in Times PAST. In this context, I would agree with the original poster that it means those who are unsaved, as the Church of God has no such distinction.

BTW...the context here is speaking about food sacrificed to idols.

Eph3nine,

Thanks for your comments.

ALL the church saw this the same way from the Apostles until John Darby come on the scene in the 1820's. Would you have us believe that the whole church was wrong for 1800 years and only John Darby was the first to see the truth? Marcion was a heretic and very un-orthodox (a gnostic) but he did only accept Paul (and some of Acts) as relevant to the "Church age" (that does sound familiar).

Dispensationalism is a heterodox theology in several ways, especially and primarily in its understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church.

Dispensationalists believe Darby discovered something that ALL the Church had missed for 1800 years. Is this possible? Certainly it is but it is also very unlikely and I dont't believe it happened. Instead, I think Darby invented a non-biblical theological system that has done great damage to the Evangelical Church.

I agree that the Scripture are our "only infallible rule of faith and practice" as did so many non-dispensational Christians before Darby came on the scene, and counless other non-dispensational Christians that have lived since Darby and the birth of Dispensational thought.

We are all free to believe as we choose. I used to hold to Dispensational thought myself. I was raised going to Dispensational Churches and believed it until my mid-twenties, but I found (IMHO) that it contradicts the Scriptures at many important points.

I own some of the best dispensational works, including Lewis Sperry Chafers 8 vol. Systematic Theology. So I have a fair knowledge of the system and strongly disagree with it.

I do find the fact that modern dispensationalists (Progressives like Blaising) are slowly working their way back to orthodoxy and leaving much of the heterodox ideas of early dispenstionalism behind, to be a VERY good sign and a positive development in that system.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

 

[eph3Nine]

Eph3nine,

Thanks for your comments.

ALL the church saw this the same way from the Apostles until John Darby come on the scene in the 1820's. Would you have us believe that the whole church was wrong for 1800 years and only John Darby was the first to see the truth? Marcion was a heretic and very un-orthodox (a gnostic) but he did only accept Paul (and some of Acts) as relevant to the "Church age" (that does sound familiar).

Dispensationalism is a heterodox theology in several ways, especially and primarily in its understanding of the relationship between Israel and the Church.

Dispensationalists believe Darby discovered something that ALL the Church had missed for 1800 years. Is this possible? Certainly it is but it is also very unlikely and I dont't believe it happened. Instead, I think Darby invented a non-biblical theological system that has done great damage to the Evangelical Church.

I agree that the Scripture are our "only infallible rule of faith and practice" as did so many non-dispensational Christians before Darby came on the scene, and counless other non-dispensational Christians that have lived since Darby and the birth of Dispensational thought.

We are all free to believe as we choose. I used to hold to Dispensational thought myself. I was raised going to Dispensational Churches and believed it until my mid-twenties, but I found (IMHO) that it contradicts the Scriptures at many important points.

I own some of the best dispensational works, including Lewis Sperry Chafers 8 vol. Systematic Theology. So I have a fair knowledge of the system and strongly disagree with it.

I do find the fact that modern dispensationalists (Progressives like Blaising) are slowly working their way back to orthodoxy and leaving much of the heterodox ideas of early dispenstionalism behind, to be a VERY good sign and a positive development in that system.

Coram Deo,
Kenith

Thank you for your thots, Kenith

I find it interesting that this forum was rather dead until we started posting some really good material. Then all of a sudden, all you folks from other schools of thot started coming in here by the DROVES, all with the same mantra and questions and comments about how "devoid of truth" and "deceived" we dispensationalists are.

Mercy me, we dont come into YOUR sections of the board with derogatory comments and such statements.

Are you guys all friends or something??? LOL

By the way, Darby didnt START anything. GOD is the ONE who appointed Paul as OUR apostle and gave him NEW information for a NEW Creation that began a NEW program...Christianity!

God began dispensationalism...its HIS house rules and they HAVE changed according to HIS Will.

NOW, so that we don't have to be redundant and repeat answers to questions we have already addressed in some length, would you mind reading some of the threads in here and specifically entering into discussion?

Cuz if you are just here as a drive by shooter, and are just going to make comments that show your dislike for and disagreement with dispensationalism, then you need to rethink your position.

We love questions and honest dialogue. Agendas we can do without.

 

[xenia]

Are you guys all friends or something???

I'm an independent operator.

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Hello Eph3Nine,


I don’t spend much time here and this is (I believe) only the second thread on this forum that I’ve written on.

I only looked at this thread because I saw Street Preacher had started it. I see him now and then over in the Semper Reformanda Forum. I thought his comment on post #6 was worthy of comment and so I made a comment.

Your own comment on post #11 brought about my last post. I did notice that you did not address any of the issues there but that is as it is.

I don’t plan to spend much time here. I think it would not be productive for y’all or for me. Again I do find it interesting that dispensationalists see no red flags when they come to knowledge of the fact that NO Christian for 1800 years believed as they do. All of Church history, from the earliest records we have (and [IMHO] the Scriptures themselves) disagree with the teachings of John Darby on the relationship between Israel and the Church.

I do count y’all as brethren. Y’all do hold to essential doctrines (Trinity, Deity of Christ, Virgin birth etc…) But I don’t understand how you can dismiss so easily a teaching held by ALL the church for 1800 years without some trepidation.

Oh well.

Street Preacher , I originally signed onto this thread to respond to you. I hope you found those points useful.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

 

[eph3Nine]

Hello Eph3Nine,


I don’t spend much time here and this is (I believe) only the second thread on this forum that I’ve written on.

I only looked at this thread because I saw Street Preacher had started it. I see him now and then over in the Semper Reformanda Forum. I thought his comment on post #6 was worthy of comment and so I made a comment.

Your own comment on post #11 brought about my last post. I did notice that you did not address any of the issues there but that is as it is.

I don’t plan to spend much time here. I think it would not be productive for y’all or for me. Again I do find it interesting that dispensationalists see no red flags when they come to knowledge of the fact that NO Christian for 1800 years believed as they do. All of Church history, from the earliest records we have (and [IMHO] the Scriptures themselves) disagree with the teachings of John Darby on the relationship between Israel and the Church.

I do count y’all as brethren. Y’all do hold to essential doctrines (Trinity, Deity of Christ, Virgin birth etc…)
Oh well.

Street Preacher , I originally signed onto this thread to respond to you. I hope you found those points useful.

Dominus vobiscum,
Kenith

Dear Kenith,
Thank you so much for your kind response.

Im glad you count we dispensationalists as brethren.

To answer your question:

But I don’t understand how you can dismiss so easily a teaching held by ALL the church for 1800 years without some trepidation.

it's easy to dismiss the teaching held by SOME of the church for 1800 years. Just because the majority of persons calling themselves believers don't SEE something clearly, doesn't mean its NOT there.

Before Paul was even DEAD, all left him...he died knowing he delivered a message meant for the Body of Christ and of great importance to ALL believers, but everyone deserted him. This certainly doesn't mean that its NO LONGER true, does it? NOPE.

Its actually not accurate to say that NO christian believed in the Mystery all those years. There were some...but then, we have never been in the MAJORITY, have we? Numbers, in and of themselves mean NOTHING...certainly not with regard to"success" or being "right" in the eyes of God. He has always operated with a remnant, not with huge numbers that flocked to hear His message.

There is an enemy who seeks NOT to get us to SIN, but whose methods today are quite different. He appears as a minister of righteousness and an angel of LIGHT. He seeks to be "like the MOST HIGH God" and what better way to deceive even those who ARE believers, than to keep them ignorant of the very MYSTERY truths that began Christianity AND the Body of Christ.

I have a really wonderful book that is one of the best on the market today with regard to showing the BIG PICTURE about what the Mystery IS, what information it contains, to whom it was given, and what 14 doctrines it contains that cannot be found ANYWHERE but in the letters of Paul, OUR apostle for today.

If you would like to have it, I will mail it to you FREE of charge. I would appreciate your reading it and then coming back in to ask questions about anything you didnt understand. Or you can just let me mail it to you and not do anything...thats fine too!

The title is, "God HAD a Secret", By Robt Wade.

I know you will be edified by reading it...and the scripture support is clear and easy to follow.

Let me know...glad to make it available to ya.

Your sis in Him
Eph3Nine

 

[xenia]

Hi Eph, are you familiar with The Trail of Blood theory of church history? And if you've heard of it, do you believe it? Something you said in your last post made me ask this question.

God bless,
Xenia

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

Eph,

Thanks for your response. You make several points that I disagree with, but that is to be expected since we so clearly differ on this subject.

God Had a Secret by Robert W. Wade 194 pages . I am reading several books right now, but I would be happy to read Mr. Wade's book and tell you my thoughts when I finish.

Do you think I can purchase it locally?

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[JM]

Brother Kenith has shown me nothing but love, thanks man. For a while I was confussed and tried my best to forge my calvinist soteriology with my dispensationalism, it lead to many problems...Kenith has always been willing to give me a hand with the theological matters (even when he disagrees with much of what I believe :hug ) by responding to my posts, but now I feel I getting back on track.

Peace,

JM

 

[eph3Nine]

Eph,

Thanks for your response. You make several points that I disagree with, but that is to be expected since we so clearly differ on this subject.

God Had a Secret by Robert W. Wade 194 pages . I am reading several books right now, but I would be happy to read Mr. Wade's book and tell you my thoughts when I finish.

Do you think I can purchase it locally?

In Christ,
Kenith

Hey there Kenith,
Nope...not available locally or in Christian bookstores. He makes the books available to me for the price of postage to send them by the case. I dont think you want a case of them, do ya??? LOL LOL

I would be more than happy to send you one. PM me with your mailing address and I will get that in the mail to you today.

Thanks again for the dialogue, its nice to be able to disagree agreeably and to realize our oneness in Him,

Grace and Peace