Israel?

[twoedge]

What is the primary meaning of Israel in the Bible.
Everyone agrees that there are types in the Bible. The tabernacle and temple are types of the body of Christ. The sacrifices were types of the ultimate sacrifice, Christ and so on and so on. The question is: Could Israel be a type of the Church I.E the elect of God from the beginning of time.
What does the Bible say........

Rom 9:6 'It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.".

..and with this Galatians agrees....

Gal 4:28 'Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.'

So it seems that true Israel are not the natural descendants of Abraham but the 'children of promise'. But what was the 'promise' and who was it to? I think all would agree that the promise is..

Gen 22:18 'and through your offspring ( or, seed ) all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.'

Gen 12:7 'The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring ( or, seed ) I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.'

Gen 13:15 'All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring ( or seed ) forever.'

Gen 24:7 'The LORD, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father's household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, 'To your offspring ( or seed ) I will give this land'-he will send his angel before you so that you can get a wife for my son from there.

How does Paul view the 'seed'.

Gal 3:16 'The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ'

It follows that all who are in the body of Christ, our Head, are the children of promise and also the seed ( in Christ ) and the intended heirs....

Gal 4:28 'If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

No?

But didn't God promise the nation of Israel the land of Canaan even naming boundaries? Yes, He did and he fulfilled it....

Josh 21:45 'So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.'

Could this 'land' have been a type for a secure and eternal dwelling place with God?
What does Paul say?

Rom 4:13 'It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world' ( Cosmos )

....the land of Canaan becomes the world! And....

Rev 21:3 'And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. '

The land was a type of this reality. Who wants to live in Palestine for eternity?

 

[Dispy]

Not everyone agrees that the tabernacle and temple are types of the body of Christ. That is a very mistaken notion that you have.

Israel IS NOT the Body of Christ, and the Body of Christ, IS NOT spiritual Israel.

Israel and the Church, the Body of Christ, both have very special and seperate roles in God's plan for the ages.

It appears to me that you are trying to make God's plan for the nation of Israel, an the plan that God has for the Church, the same.

Tracy Plessinger, in his article "THE BIBLES'S MOST MISUNDERSTOOD VERSE", found at http://www.gracealive.us/misunderstood.html, explains God's purpose for the earth, through Israel, and God purpose for the Church, the Body of Christ, for heaven.

I have posted a portion of the article below.

God's Eternal Unchanging Plan

Scripture makes very clear that God has only ever had one plan. That plan has been in effect since before the world began and will be fulfilled only after time is no more, in the dispensation of the fulness of times.

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:1,2

Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Ephesians 1:9,10

The heart of this plan is seen in the passage from Ephesians quoted above. God's eternal purpose and plan is to glorify His son, Jesus Christ, to "gather together in one all things in Christ". This eternal purpose can also be seen in Paul's letter to the church at Philippi.

Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:9-11

Clearly, God's eternal purpose is to have all creatures glorify the Son, Jesus Christ, which in turn brings honor to the Father. It is also clear from two of the passages quoted above that this one eternal purpose of God is to be carried out in two different locations, on earth and in heaven.

There is however, an impediment to God's plan. There is one who desires to usurp the rightful position of Christ as the one that is glorified by heaven and earth. The being who desires to have the honor and glory that belong to Christ is Satan. In the book of Isaiah, we read of his selfish desire.

For thou [Lucifer] hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:13,14

It is very significant that Satan uses a specific title of God when he sets out on his course of rebellion. He refers to God as, "the most high". That title is a title that relates specifically to God's ownership of heaven and earth. This can be seen as we look at the first time that that title is used in Scripture.

And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:. . . And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, Genesis 14:19,22

What we are reading in scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is an account of Satan's attempt to become the possessor of heaven and earth, to replace Jesus Christ as the ruler of the universe. We also learn of God's counterattack and that God's plan, in the end, will overcome Satan's plan. In the end, Jesus Christ will alone be glorified in heaven and earth.

Dispensational Bible study simply acknowledges the fact that Satan has attacked God's authority on two fronts, the heaven and the earth, and that God will repel that attack and be victorious on those same two fronts. The first person to rightly divide the Word of Truth was not some modern-day dispensationalist. It was God.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Genesis 1:1

God presents his creative act as an act that produced a divided universe, a universe that consists of two parts, the heaven, and the earth. In order to fully understand God's plan we must understand how that plan will be carried out in both of these areas.

God's Plan on the Earth

As we continue in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, we immediately see where God's plan is focused initially.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Genesis 1:2

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. Genesis 1:28

And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:14,15

It is clear that the creation described in Genesis 1 is focused exclusively on the earth. It is the earth that is said to be "without form, and void". It is the earth that man is told to "replenish" and "subdue". Even the lights that God created in heaven were for the purpose of giving light "upon the earth".

After the flood, God gave similar instructions to Noah and his sons.

And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. Genesis 9:1

With the setting aside of Abraham to begin the formation of the nation Israel we see that the focus was still on the earth.

And I will bless them that bless thee [Abraham], and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. Genesis 12:3

The singular message of the prophets is the establishment of God's righteous rule and reign on a renewed earth.

The wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice, and blossom as the rose. Isaiah 35:1

Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the LORD is risen upon thee. For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the LORD shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising. Isaiah 60:1-3

Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. . . . And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. Daniel 2:35,44

Notice that Isaiah points to the wonderful utopian conditions on the renewed earth and how the Gentile nations will flow into that blessing. Daniel emphasizes the fact that the "God of heaven" will establish a kingdom that fills "the whole earth". These passages are typical of the message that the prophets brought to the nation Israel. They were continuing God's focus on reestablishing His authority on the earthly part of His creation.

The earthly ministry of Jesus Christ and the twelve apostles continued the prophetic focus on the earth.

Christ was presented to Israel as the rightful heir to the earthly throne of David.

And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Luke 1:30-33

Christ taught His disciples to pray for the kingdom to come to the earth.

After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Matthew 6:9,10

The apostles tied their message and its returning, triumphant Messiah to the fulfillment of the prophetic Scriptures.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

All of the facts above show us that during the time frame covered from Genesis 1:2 to Acts 9, the focus of God's message was on the earth.

God's Plan in the Heavens

In the ninth chapter of Acts we see a significant change begin to take place as Jesus Christ speaks from heaven to a man who would become the Apostle of the Gentiles.

And as he [Saul] journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. Acts 9:3-5

Clearly, Paul had a calling that was heavenly in nature. The setting aside of Paul and the formation of the Body of Christ marks a change in God's focus from the earth to heaven. God's basic plan to glorify Christ has not changed at all. His purpose is still the same one that He conceived before the foundation of the world. With the ministry of Paul, He is now simply revealing the heavenly aspect of that plan. In the book of Ephesians, Paul makes quite clear that the focus of the Body of Christ is heavenly.

The Body of Christ is blessed in heavenly places.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: Ephesians 1:3

The Body of Christ is seated in heavenly places.

And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: Ephesians 2:6

The Body of Christ is ministering to beings in heavenly places.

To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, Ephesians 3:10

The Body of Christ has as its head a Christ who has ascended above and therefore rules over heavenly places.

He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Ephesians 4:10

The Body of Christ is fighting a war with beings in heavenly places.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Ephesians 6:12

Paul is also careful to make sure that we understand that our eternal destiny is in the heavenlies, not on the earth.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Philippians 3:20,21

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. I Thessalonians 4:16-18

Notice that our comfort is not found in the return of Christ to establish an earthly kingdom, as it was for Israel. Our comfort is found in Christ catching us off this earth to reign with Him for all eternity in the heavenlies. Our eternal destiny and conversation is in heaven, not on the earth.

We should note one other important truth about all of this information about God's purpose being fulfilled in heaven. It was all kept secret in the mind and heart of God until it was revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:25,26

Notice that Paul says that the information he is preaching was "kept secret since the world began". This is in marked contrast to Peter's preaching things "which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began." (See Acts 3:21, quoted above.) God's plans concerning the heavens were kept secret until revealed to and through the Apostle Paul.

These facts show us that the truth of God's plan being fulfilled in heaven, the truth under which we operate today, is found exclusively in the writings of the Apostle Paul to the Church, the Body of Christ. We must go to those writings to understand how God will fulfill His purpose in heaven, and how we should live based on our place in that heavenly plan.

The Fulfillment of God's Plan

We have already seen that in the book of Ephesians God reveals the fulfillment of His plan in eternity future, both on the earth and in heaven, as all things are gathered "together in one . . . in Christ". As God closes out His revelation to man we see that He has in fact brought everything full circle.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. Revelation 21:1

God's one eternal plan will be fulfilled, both in heaven and on earth. Jesus Christ will be honored and glorified in all the universe.

The only way that we can truly understand the entirety of God's plan is to rightly divide the Word of Truth and realize that He is working to carry out that plan in two areas, the heaven and the earth.

 

[ddub85]

@ twoedge

Israel?

What is the primary meaning of Israel in the Bible.
Everyone agrees that there are types in the Bible. The tabernacle and temple are types of the body of Christ. The sacrifices were types of the ultimate sacrifice, Christ and so on and so on. The question is: Could Israel be a type of the Church I.E the elect of God from the beginning of time.
What does the Bible say........

Israel is a part of the church, as they are in Christ, if that's what you mean.

Rom 9:6 'It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." In other words, it is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring. For this was how the promise was stated: "At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.".

This IS NOT what the Bible says. Let's look at what the Bible REALLY says;

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

"THEY"... who is they? "They" are Israel, which EXCLUDES Gentiles from the statement. Now, do you see where it says "OF" Israel? The ONLY people "OF" Israel are those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That EXCLUDES Gentiles.
So... YOU are attempting to include Gentiles where the Bible clearly excludes Gentiles from being Israel.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Clearly, being born of Abraham DOES NOT make one Israel. If you are born of Abraham ONLY, then you are eliminated from being Israel by this verse.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

So WHO are the children of the flesh? Those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Who are the children of the promise who are counted for the seed in this context? Those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob who have accepted Christ.
This has nothing to do with Gentiles, but YOU attempt to include Gentiles in the statement.

..and with this Galatians agrees....
Gal 4:28 'Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.'
So it seems that true Israel are not the natural descendants of Abraham but the 'children of promise'. But what was the 'promise' and who was it to? I think all would agree that the promise is..

You have wrenched the context of the statement apart in order to say what the Bible isn't saying. The comparison here is between those under the law, and those under grace. And we who accept Christ are under grace, according to the single promise.
But WHAT promise (covenant) was Isaac under?

Gen 22:18 'and through your offspring ( or, seed ) all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.'
Gen 12:7 'The LORD appeared to Abram and said, "To your offspring ( or, seed ) I will give this land." So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.'
Gen 13:15 'All the land that you see I will give to you and your offspring ( or seed ) forever.'
Gen 24:7 'The LORD, the God of heaven, who brought me out of my father's household and my native land and who spoke to me and promised me on oath, saying, 'To your offspring ( or seed ) I will give this land'-he will send his angel before you so that you can get a wife for my son from there.

I agree with you that it's Gen 22:18, as Paul confirms that fact in Gal 3. But the land promise? No. Any other promise? No. That is not given, nor confirmed in any verse in the Bible.

How does Paul view the 'seed'.
Gal 3:16 'The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ'
It follows that all who are in the body of Christ, our Head, are the children of promise and also the seed ( in Christ ) and the intended heirs....

Nope. The promises, all of the promises, are given to the seed. That seed consists of Jews and Gentiles. The Bible CONSISTENTLY tells us that the Jews receive promises, and the Gentiles receive the single promise. It also tells us that we Gentiles will receive what we've been allotted, and that we've been allotted the single promise. It says nothing about us Gentiles being allotted promises. We must honor what the Bible says, and not just claim whatever we may want.

Gal 4:28 'If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'
No?

Yes, that's right. "According to..." Does it say A) all the promises, or B) the single promise. You tell me. Again, let's stick to what the Bible says, not what we want.

But didn't God promise the nation of Israel the land of Canaan even naming boundaries? Yes, He did and he fulfilled it....
Josh 21:45 'So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.'

Gen 17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

For how long? AN EVERLASTING POSSESSION, FOREVER. Not fulfilled. Stay tuned, though, because God won't fail.

Could this 'land' have been a type for a secure and eternal dwelling place with God?
What does Paul say?
Rom 4:13 'It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world' ( Cosmos )
....the land of Canaan becomes the world! And....

You're mixing up your promises. Paul isn't speaking of a land promise here, he's speaking of all nations being blessed, which includes all; Jews and Gentiles.

Rev 21:3 'And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. '
The land was a type of this reality. Who wants to live in Palestine for eternity?

What... you don't believe God when He says it's the land of milk and honey? Where is your faith? And I'm not so sure it's the place we now call Palestine.

God Bless!

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

The question is: Could Israel be a type of the Church I.E the elect of God from the beginning of time.
What does the Bible say........

I don't see Scripture referring to the whole of "the elect of God" - all of the redeemed - as Israel. The elect of God consists of all the redeemed from all ages - that is, all saved individuals whether Jew or Gentile. Israel had a specific historical beginning. Scripture portrays Israel as consisting of unsaved and saved Jews. The redeemed of Israel was often called the remnant of Israel. A "remnant" doesn't consist of the whole. There were many OT Gentiles - those before Israel came into existence and those outside of Israel - who were redeemed.

Also, Israel was elected corporately while the elect of God were elected individually. I see too many differences to equate the two.

So it seems that true Israel are not the natural descendants of Abraham but the 'children of promise'. But what was the 'promise' and who was it to? I think all would agree that the promise is..

Rom 9:6 should be seen in its context, especially Rom 9:1-5 where Paul is speaking of "his people" and fellow countrymen - those he regards as Israelites. He certainly regards them as members of Israel. When Paul says "not all who are descended from Israel are Israel" - he is referring to the remnant within Israel.

The "promise" referred back to the Abrahamic covenant. The "children of the promise" refers to Isaac. Abraham had more children than Isaac, but the Abrahamic covenant was specifically promised through Isaac.

Gen 22:18 'and through your offspring [/SIZE][/FONT]( or, seed ) all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.'

The blessings toward all nations come through Abraham's descendant Jesus Christ.

Gen 12:7 and the following verses you cite are specific land promises to the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the Jews.

Gal 3:16 'The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ'

It follows that all who are in the body of Christ, our Head, are the children of promise and also the seed ( in Christ ) and the intended heirs....

Gal 4:28 'If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

No?

Believing Gentiles such as the Galatians are Abraham's seed (descendants/sons) because Abraham believed God as a Gentile and was justified through faith. Here in Romans 4:9-12 Paul made an important distinction between believing Gentiles and believing Jews -

9 Is this blessedness then for the circumcision or also for the uncircumcision? For we say, "faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness." 10 How then was it credited to him? Was he circumcised at the time, or not? No, he was not circumcised but uncircumcised! 11 And he received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised, so that he would become the father of all those who believe but have never been circumcised, that they too could have righteousness credited to them. 12 And he is also the father of the circumcised, who are not only circumcised, but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham possessed when he was still uncircumcised.

But didn't God promise the nation of Israel the land of Canaan even naming boundaries? Yes, He did and he fulfilled it....

Josh 21:45 'So the LORD gave Israel all the land he had sworn to give their forefathers, and they took possession of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of all the LORD's good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled.'

However you interpret Josh 21:45, it cannot speak of the entire land promise. In his farewell address an old Joshua said this:

Joshua 23:4-5 4 Remember how I [Joshua] have allotted as an inheritance for your tribes all the land of the nations that remain-- the nations I conquered-- between the Jordan and the Great Sea in the west. 5 The LORD your God himself will drive them out of your way. He will push them out before you, and you will take possession of their land, as the LORD your God promised you.

Also cross reference Judges 1-2.

Could this 'land' have been a type for a secure and eternal dwelling place with God?
What does Paul say?

Rom 4:13 'It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world' ( Cosmos )

....the land of Canaan becomes the world! And....

Sorry, it is a logical fallacy to transpose "land" into "world" based on Rom 4:13. You are taking Rom 4:13 waay out of its context. See the above Rom 4:9-12 for what Paul was referring to in the context.

Lamorak Des Galis

 

[GLJCA]

@ twoedge


Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

"THEY"... who is they? "They" are Israel, which EXCLUDES Gentiles from the statement. Now, do you see where it says "OF" Israel? The ONLY people "OF" Israel are those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That EXCLUDES Gentiles.
So... YOU are attempting to include Gentiles where the Bible clearly excludes Gentiles from being Israel.

Hey DDub, what do you do with Rahab the harlot? She was a Gentile who is counted with Israel in the hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. She was an Israelite even though she was born a Gentile. Here is another reference from the book of Ester.
Est 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
These people were Gentiles who became Jews. They became Jews by believing and getting circumcised. To be a physical Jew did not mean that you had to be born a Jew.
Exd 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Once they were circumcised they became as one who was born in the land. So you see, one did not have to be a Jew by blood to be a Jew.
GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

@ twoedge


This has nothing to do with Gentiles, but YOU attempt to include Gentiles in the statement.

You have wrenched the context of the statement apart in order to say what the Bible isn't saying. The comparison here is between those under the law, and those under grace. And we who accept Christ are under grace, according to the single promise.
But WHAT promise (covenant) was Isaac under?

Paul is alluding to the covenantal promises given to Abraham and his Seed. He is explaining to a Gentile Church that the promises given in Jermiah 31:31-35 were to Abraham and his Seed, which is Christ. He is saying that if you are Christ's then you are an heir to those promises. Do you not know that the basis for the forgiveness of your sins comes from God's promise to Israel in Jer. 31:34? Did you not realize that the very fact that you can say that God is,YOUR God, and you are one of His people, is a fulfillment of the promise given in Jer 31:33? So if we are Christ's we are children of promise just as Isaac was. If you say that those promises are only for Israel then you are lost in your sins with no chance of forgiveness. In fact that means that God will remember your sin forever because His promise was that He would remember them no more.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

I don't see Scripture referring to the whole of "the elect of God" - all of the redeemed - as Israel. The elect of God consists of all the redeemed from all ages - that is, all saved individuals whether Jew or Gentile. Israel had a specific historical beginning. Scripture portrays Israel as consisting of unsaved and saved Jews. The redeemed of Israel was often called the remnant of Israel. A "remnant" doesn't consist of the whole. There were many OT Gentiles - those before Israel came into existence and those outside of Israel - who were redeemed.

Also, Israel was elected corporately while the elect of God were elected individually. I see too many differences to equate the two.

Lamorak Des Galis

Hi Lomorak,

I think your rendering of the definition of the word "elect" is not biblical. It seems that you are trying to make the word "elect" into a "once saved always saved" fetish.

You say that you don't see, Scripture referring to the whole of "the elect of God" - all of the redeemed - as Israel. Yet you say that the elect is the redeemed for all of the ages. What scripture defines the elect of God as the redeemed from all the ages?
Israel was God's elect? Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

We, Christians are considered to be the elect of God.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Do you think that all of the people, who were in the Church at Colosse were ordained to eternal life?
Do you think that everyone who read Peter's letter was ordained to eternal life?

God's elect are His covenant people.

One can not be elect individually without being elect corporately. Can you name one person that was elect individually but not corporately? If there is a difference you should be able to present one person who was elect individually but not corporately.That is like saying that someone can be a Christian without being a part of the Church. That is impossible!!!

Yetone can be elect covenantally or corporately, just as Judas was, and go to Hell. He was still one of God's elect people until he broke God's covenant because of unbelief.

When we believe we are grafted into the olive tree, Covenant Israel. At that point we become God's elect, even though in God's eyes, it was from the foundation of the world. Those of us, elect, who are ordained to eternal life will go to heaven(wheat) but some of the elect who are not ordained to eternal life will not (tares).

You can not define a word the way you have without taking into account the Old Testament, which shows that God's elect is nothing more than His covenant people.

GLJCA

 

[eph3Nine]

The ELECT are those who believe. When you are IN Gods elect, who IS Jesus Christ...then YOU become the elect as well.

And if God isnt able to KEEP that which He has saved thru His mighty power and the SEALING of the Holy Spirit, then He's not much of a God now, is He????

Those who think that salvation is dependent upon what WE do or dont do are totally unaware of what took place at the Cross.

Once saved always saved is a doctrine given to us BY God...and speaks of His very character in making salvation a FREE gift (not one earned by good behavior and taken away by bad)

Think of it...someone calling OSAS a "fetish?????" Its Gods GIFT to mankind...totally of GRACE and not of works...not by works of righteousness but by His GRACE have we been saved.

Read the book. Believe it....stop making Gods grace sound cheap...it cost Him the life of His Son.

 

[LamorakDesGalis]

Hi Lomorak,

I think your rendering of the definition of the word "elect" is not biblical. It seems that you are trying to make the word "elect" into a "once saved always saved" fetish.

If you don't think what I said is Biblical, try responding with reference to Scripture references of elect rather than assertions with no Scripture references. Your reference to "once saved always saved" is erroneous - I've got other issues in mind, certainly not that.

You say that you don't see, Scripture referring to the whole of "the elect of God" - all of the redeemed - as Israel.

No I don't see it. In fact I see the opposite. Take a look at Romans 11:7. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguished between two groups within Israel - the elect (the saved) and the "others" which were hardened.

Rom 11:7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but[/b] the elect did.[/b] The others were hardened,

Its obvious - especially in Romans - that Paul perceives Israel as consisting of saved Jews - whom he called the elect - and unsaved Jews.

Yet you say that the elect is the redeemed for all of the ages. What scripture defines the elect of God as the redeemed from all the ages?

My response was to the OP who defined all the redeemed as "the elect of God." I'm using his terminology to bridge the gap in explaining what I believe. But go ahead and look up Romans 8:30-33...you need to see where elect occurs and what is said about it...

Israel was God's elect? Isa 45:4 For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

The context of Isa 45:4 shows that Cyrus was "annointed" by God to enable the exiled Jews to return to their homeland. God spoke of Israel as chosen or elect in a corporate sense, as is consistent with OT revelation. Certainly God did not identify all the elect as Israel in Isa 45:4.

Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Again the idea in Isa 65:22 is that Israel is God's chosen people, not that all the elect are Israel.

We, Christians are considered to be the elect of God.

Yes, and I agree. Col 3:12 and 1 Pet 1:2 and other passages say Christians are elect or chosen. Christians are elect as individuals - unlike Israel which was chosen/elected corporately.

Do you think that all of the people, who were in the Church at Colosse were ordained to eternal life?
Do you think that everyone who read Peter's letter was ordained to eternal life?

I think all those who were justified who read the letters were elect. Don't confuse the visible church with the body of Christ. Not everyone in the visible church are saved - justified. Only believers who trust in Christ are justified.

One can not be elect individually without being elect corporately. Can you name one person that was elect individually but not corporately? If there is a difference you should be able to present one person who was elect individually but not corporately.That is like saying that someone can be a Christian without being a part of the Church. That is impossible!!!

You have it confused. Just because Israel was elected corporately doesn't mean every individual in Israel is saved. That should be obvious from Scripture and discussion here. In the church, each individual is elect based on salvation by grace through faith. The church is made up entirely of saved individuals. Its the individual living stones which make up the church, as Peter said in 1 Pet 2:5.

Yetone can be elect covenantally or corporately, just as Judas was, and go to Hell. He was still one of God's elect people until he broke God's covenant because of unbelief.

Judas was an unbelieving Jew who was a member of corporately chosen Israel. That underscores my point that Israel consists of unbelieving and believing Jews. In addition, Judas was never a believer - he was never a living stone in the Church, he was never justified. Even Jesus called him a devil early in his ministry (John 6:7-71).

When we believe we are grafted into the olive tree, Covenant Israel. At that point we become God's elect, even though in God's eyes, it was from the foundation of the world. Those of us, elect, who are ordained to eternal life will go to heaven(wheat) but some of the elect who are not ordained to eternal life will not (tares).

Obviously you are importing your own terminology into the various Scripture passages that you refer to. I've already pointed out your errors concerning the olive tree. The wheat and the tares are not together "elect" - they in fact are entirely different groups. The wheat are the "children of the kingdom" while the tares are the "children of the wicked one." You also have issues with the word "elect" - which just confuses things even more.


Lamorak Des Galis

 

[ddub85]

@ GLJCA
Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
@ twoedge

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:
"THEY"... who is they? "They" are Israel, which EXCLUDES Gentiles from the statement. Now, do you see where it says "OF" Israel? The ONLY people "OF" Israel are those born of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. That EXCLUDES Gentiles.
So... YOU are attempting to include Gentiles where the Bible clearly excludes Gentiles from being Israel.

Hey DDub, what do you do with Rahab the harlot? She was a Gentile who is counted with Israel in the hall of Faith in Hebrews 11. She was an Israelite even though she was born a Gentile. Here is another reference from the book of Ester.

What's the problem? Rahab had faith, she believed, she was saved. Why can't a Gentile be included? What is there to do? I think it's beautiful. But an Israelite? Where does the Bible say that? Are you saying she was a Proselyte?

Est 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

Proselytes. So what's the problem?

These people were Gentiles who became Jews. They became Jews by believing and getting circumcised. To be a physical Jew did not mean that you had to be born a Jew.
Exd 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Once they were circumcised they became as one who was born in the land. So you see, one did not have to be a Jew by blood to be a Jew.

Incorrect. They were not physical Jews, they were proselytes. There's a difference between the two. Are they any less in the eyes of God? NO! But there is a difference. You even point it out when you see Rahab as a Gentile in the hall of faith.

Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house [is] this Eliezer of Damascus?

Gen 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Gen 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD [came] unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Isaac is born of the bowels of Abraham, the line of the heir, born of the blood of Abraham. It takes both; born of blood and promise. Born of water and spirit.

Gen 17:19 And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, [and] with his seed after him.

Gen 17:21 But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

This everlasting covenant came by way of Abraham, through Isaac.

Rom 9:6 ¶ Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they [are] not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Who is "OF" Israel? Those born of Israel are, and Gentiles are not. So all of those "OF" Israel, are not all Israel. The statement eliminates the possibility of the inclusion of Gentiles, as we are not "OF" Israel.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, [are they] all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Paul is speaking of Israel here, those born by blood of Isaac. That eliminates Gentiles. You are speaking of Proselytes, such as Rahab, who receive the blessing given to Abraham (Gen 12:3), and reiterated by Paul (Gal 3).

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

@ GLJCA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
@ twoedge

This has nothing to do with Gentiles, but YOU attempt to include Gentiles in the statement.
You have wrenched the context of the statement apart in order to say what the Bible isn't saying. The comparison here is between those under the law, and those under grace. And we who accept Christ are under grace, according to the single promise.
But WHAT promise (covenant) was Isaac under?

Paul is alluding to the covenantal promises given to Abraham and his Seed.

OK,...

He is explaining to a Gentile Church that the promises given in Jermiah 31:31-35 were to Abraham and his Seed, which is Christ.

OK,...

He is saying that if you are Christ's then you are an heir to those promises.

No. That's NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says "heirs according to the promise (singular)". YOU, on the other hand, say "heir to those promises." YOU are not quoting the Bible, you're misquoting the Bible in order for it to coincide with what you believe. If God had meant "heir to those promises", He would have said so. But He said "heirs according to the promise". There's a big difference between the two.

Do you not know that the basis for the forgiveness of your sins comes from God's promise to Israel in Jer. 31:34?

I know of no such thing. Where does the Bible say that? According to Paul, we Gentiles were given the blessing of forgiveness of sins in the promise to Abraham (Gal 3), and we're under the same promise as Isaac (Gal 4:28). So where do you come up with our forgiveness of sins in Jer 31:34, when we Gentiles aren't even mentioned in the promise? That's a little bizarre, don't you think?

Did you not realize that the very fact that you can say that God is,YOUR God, and you are one of His people, is a fulfillment of the promise given in Jer 31:33?

How could that possibly be when you or I aren't even mentioned in the promise? We're not Israel or Judah, and that's who the promise is to! How can you include us where God does not!?!?! Does your word supercede the word of God?

So if we are Christ's we are children of promise just as Isaac was.

Correct. What promise was Isaac under? He was dead and gone when you say the New Covenant began, so it can't be the New Covenant, not even by your own incorrect definition of it's start. So please answer the question: WHAT COVENANT IS ISAAC UNDER???? Because you and I are under the very same one, according to scripture.

If you say that those promises are only for Israel then you are lost in your sins with no chance of forgiveness. In fact that means that God will remember your sin forever because His promise was that He would remember them no more.

That's not according to God, that's according to some theology you've created. The Bible says no such thing.
THE BIBLE (not me!) says the promises are to Israel, and both Jews and Gentiles receive the promise. The Bible also says that redemption of sins are for those under the Old Covenant;

Hbr 9:15; And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So clearly what you're saying doesn't agree with what the Bible is saying.

Clearly.

God Bless!

 

[eph3Nine]

@ GLJCA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
@ twoedge

This has nothing to do with Gentiles, but YOU attempt to include Gentiles in the statement.
You have wrenched the context of the statement apart in order to say what the Bible isn't saying. The comparison here is between those under the law, and those under grace. And we who accept Christ are under grace, according to the single promise.
But WHAT promise (covenant) was Isaac under?

OK,...

OK,...

No. That's NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says "heirs according to the promise (singular)". YOU, on the other hand, say "heir to those promises." YOU are not quoting the Bible, you're misquoting the Bible in order for it to coincide with what you believe. If God had meant "heir to those promises", He would have said so. But He said "heirs according to the promise". There's a big difference between the two.

I know of no such thing. Where does the Bible say that? According to Paul, we Gentiles were given the blessing of forgiveness of sins in the promise to Abraham (Gal 3), and we're under the same promise as Isaac (Gal 4:28). So where do you come up with our forgiveness of sins in Jer 31:34, when we Gentiles aren't even mentioned in the promise? That's a little bizarre, don't you think?

How could that possibly be when you or I aren't even mentioned in the promise? We're not Israel or Judah, and that's who the promise is to! How can you include us where God does not!?!?! Does your word supercede the word of God?

Correct. What promise was Isaac under? He was dead and gone when you say the New Covenant began, so it can't be the New Covenant, not even by your own incorrect definition of it's start. So please answer the question: WHAT COVENANT IS ISAAC UNDER???? Because you and I are under the very same one, according to scripture.

That's not according to God, that's according to some theology you've created. The Bible says no such thing.
THE BIBLE (not me!) says the promises are to Israel, and both Jews and Gentiles receive the promise. The Bible also says that redemption of sins are for those under the Old Covenant;

Hbr 9:15; And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

So clearly what you're saying doesn't agree with what the Bible is saying.

Clearly.

God Bless!

Well done, dub....and I agree.

 

[GLJCA]

If you don't think what I said is Biblical, try responding with reference to Scripture references of elect rather than assertions with no Scripture references. Your reference to "once saved always saved" is erroneous - I've got other issues in mind, certainly not that.
Lamorak Des Galis

What I meant was that your definition is very Baptistic and not following what the scripture says about who and what the elect is. Your definition and coresponding beliefs are not consistent with scripture. I will show you as I answer the rest of your statements below.

No I don't see it. In fact I see the opposite. Take a look at Romans 11:7. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguished between two groups within Israel - the elect (the saved) and the "others" which were hardened.

Rom 11:7 What then? WhatIsrael sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but[/b] the elect did.[/b] The others were hardened,

I think the correct verse says something different than what you have interpreted above.
Rom 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Iinterpreting it the way you did you are saying that the elect obtained it, for example you intrpreted it, What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but[/b] the elect did. The elect could not obtain anything. God through election obtained it for the elect and those who broke the covenant were the branches who were broken off and blinded because of unbelief.

My response was to the OP who defined all the redeemed as "the elect of God." I'm using his terminology to bridge the gap in explaining what I believe. But go ahead and look up Romans 8:30-33...you need to see where elect occurs and what is said about it...

Ok I read Romans 8:30-33 and I still ask what scripture tells you that the elect are the redeemed from all the ages? It isn't there. You are creating a definition that is not accurate.

The context of Isa 45:4 shows that Cyrus was "annointed" by God to enable the exiled Jews to return to their homeland. God spoke of Israel as chosen or elect in a corporate sense, as is consistent with OT revelation. Certainly God did not identify all the elect as Israel in Isa 45:4.

He did identified ISRAEL AS HIS ELECT, which was comprised of individuals who were in covenant with Him.

Again the idea in Isa 65:22 is that Israel is God's chosen people, not that all the elect are Israel.

Again God shows us through His Word that Israel was His elect. There is no difference between God saying that Israel was His chosen people or Him saying that Israel was His elect. The Bible does not distinguish between corporate and individual. If you are in covenant with God you are elect unless you, as a branch, are broken off because of unbelief.

Yes, and I agree. Col 3:12 and 1 Pet 1:2 and other passages say Christians are elect or chosen. Christians are elect as individuals - unlike Israel which was chosen/elected corporately.

The Church is corporately elect also. The Church is the body of Christ made up of individuals yet corporate. No one can be an individual Christian without being a corporate Christian. Just as Israel was God's elect made up of individuals who were in covenant with Him, the Church is God's elect made up of individuals who have believed and been baptized.

I think all those who were justified who read the letters were elect. Don't confuse the visible church with the body of Christ. Not everyone in the visible church are saved - justified. Only believers who trust in Christ are justified.

Can you see the problem that you are having here? Paul wrote a letter to a Church and addressed everyone in the Church as elect but now you are making distinction of who was and who wasn't elect, just so that you can make it fit with your belief. Paul wrote that letter to a specific visible Church calling them the elect. Were all of the people in that church ordained for eternal life? How could he possibly call all of them elect when only God knows that fact? The Church visible and universal are considered God's elect just as Israel visible and universal was considered God's elect in the OT.
This is where Dispys go wrong, they look at the visible church as corrupt and weak but no where in scripture were letters written to the universal church they were all written to the visible church. The visible Church is the body of Christ or at least Paul understood it to be.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
To whom were these gifted men given? They were given to local visible churches. Why? for the edifying of the BODY OF CHRIST.
You have allowed Dispensationalism to give you a wrong definition of the Church of Jesus Christ.

It is amazing how that you can say that Israel was corporately elect even though it was made up of individuals who were in covenant with Him, but the Church is individually not corporately elect, even though it is made up of individuals who are in covenant with Christ. How can you make that distinction when there is nothing in scripture to support it?

You have it confused. Just because Israel was elected corporately doesn't mean every individual in Israel is saved. That should be obvious from Scripture and discussion here. In the church, each individual is elect based on salvation by grace through faith. The church is made up entirely of saved individuals. Its the individual living stones which make up the church, as Peter said in 1 Pet 2:5.

I don't believe I have it confused and I never said that every individual in Israel was saved. You are confusing the term "elect" with eternal salvation as I pointed out in my comment about OSAS. All of Israel was made up of individuals that were in covenant with God and that is what made them elect. They were His chosen elect people yet all but a few died in the wilderness after leaving Egypt and did not enter into God's rest (Heb 4). 1 Cor 10 says that they were all baptized unto Moses, they all ate the same spiritual meat and drank from the Rock which was Christ, yet they were overthrown in the wilderness by God himself. Why? because of unbelief. They were all His covenant people, His chosen, His elect, yet because of unbelief God killed some of them and they went to Hell.

Paul in 1Cor 15:1-2 is saying contrary to what you were saying that some believers will have believed in vain because they don't persevere in the faith. He tells the Church at Colosse the same message. He tells them that they are reconciled to Christ through His blood but then in verse 23 he blows them away. They are reconciled IF,
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
These are the same people that Paul called elect yet now he is saying that they are reconciled only if they continue in the faith. Those ordained to eternal life will persevere in the faith because God will perserve them, but those who are part of the elect Church who don't persevere in the faith will be cut off and cast into the fire(John 15).

Judas was an unbelieving Jew who was a member of corporately chosen Israel. That underscores my point that Israel consists of unbelieving and believing Jews. In addition, Judas was never a believer - he was never a living stone in the Church, he was never justified. Even Jesus called him a devil early in his ministry (John 6:7-71).

You are right Judas was not a believer yet he was a part of elect Israel.
Can you see that you are having to add the words "corporate or individual" when speaking of individuals? Why didn't God do that in scripture? Where do you see the term corporately elect in scripture? You are having to do that to make what Dispensationalism has taught you, fit. God called them all "elect" until they were found in unbelief.
Lev 18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God.
Did God say that I am the God of the individually elect Children of Israel? No He was speaking to all of the children of Israel.
Num 6:27 And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.
God blessed all of Israel not just the ones that were, as you say, individually elect.

Definitions correct or incorrect affect our doctrine. If we say that the "elect" is someone who will definitely go to heaven then the Bible does not back that up. I perfer to use the words "ordained to eternal life" found in Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Only those who are ordained to eternal life will go to heaven.

Obviously you are importing your own terminology into the various Scripture passages that you refer to. I've already pointed out your errors concerning the olive tree. The wheat and the tares are not together "elect" - they in fact are entirely different groups. The wheat are the "children of the kingdom" while the tares are the "children of the wicked one." You also have issues with the word "elect" - which just confuses things even more.

I think I have shown sufficiently that I am not confused with the word "elect". Everything I have said I have given scriptural proof yet you are making statements that are not from scripture.
1. You have not shown where the Bible says that the elect are the redeemed for all the ages.
2. You have not shown any verses where the term corporately elect is even addressed.
3. You have not shown one scripture that distinguishes between the visible church and the universal church.

Also, you have not pointed out any errors concerning the olive tree that I have not addressed sufficiently also showing scripture to prove my points.

GLJCA

 

[GLJCA]

@ GLJCA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddub85
@ twoedge

This has nothing to do with Gentiles, but YOU attempt to include Gentiles in the statement.
You have wrenched the context of the statement apart in order to say what the Bible isn't saying. The comparison here is between those under the law, and those under grace. And we who accept Christ are under grace, according to the single promise.
But WHAT promise (covenant) was Isaac under?

God Bless!

Now ddub how can you say that this has nothing to do with Gentiles when Paul was writting it to a Gentile Church telling them that they were Abraham's seed. The promise that Isaac was under is the same promise that the Church is given today.
Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

Ddub, how do you think that you were given the privilege of the forgiveness of sins? It was because of the promises given to Israel in Jer 31:31-35. You as a Gentile do not have any basis to have your sins forgiven apart from that promise. You see Jesus Christ was the fulfillment and provision of God for that promise. God said that he would forgive their sins and remember them no more. How was He going to do that since a Holy God required a perfect sacrifice for that sin? The only way was to send His Son Jesus Christ. If this promise doesn't apply to you then you have no basis to say that you are forgiven and you are dead in your sins and God will remember your sins forever. The blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant.

Almost all Dispys have no understanding of God's covenants. All of the covenants that God has made with man have been built on top of the one before it. The New Covenant is no different. It was built on and based on the Old Covenant promises given to Israel but unbelieving Israel rejected their Messiah and therefore was divorced by God and the believing Church of Jesus Christ, which was grafted into the olive tree, covenant Israel, became the Israel of God. The promises that were given in Jer 31 are now being appropriated by the Church of Jesus Christ. Otherwise you would not be able to call God, your God, nor would He call you one of His people. Your sins could not be forgiven because the promise of forgiveness of sins comes from God's promise to Israel concerning the New Covenant.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
The writer here shows that when someone comes to Christ they come to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the Church of the firstborn and to the New Covenant. All of these names, mount Sion, heavenly Jerusalem, general assembly and church of the firstborn are speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ.

No. That's NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says "heirs according to the promise (singular)". YOU, on the other hand, say "heir to those promises." YOU are not quoting the Bible, you're misquoting the Bible in order for it to coincide with what you believe. If God had meant "heir to those promises", He would have said so. But He said "heirs according to the promise". There's a big difference between the two.

You caught me. I am guilty of adding an "s" to the word promise. Wow does that negate all that I said just because I added an "s" to the word promise? I think not!! Are you trying so hard to find something wrong so you can trash all that I said? OK I will say it just like Paul did.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Gal 3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
In reality the words promise and promises are used several times in this chapter speaking of the same thing.
I have explained thoroughly what the promise and or promises that God made to Israel were. The promise that Paul was speaking of was the promise of justification by faith which carried with it the forgiveness of sins also promised in Jer 31:34. It also dealt with the promise that in Abraham all the nations would be blessed. So if you want to use the word promise(singular) that's fine.

I know of no such thing. Where does the Bible say that? According to Paul, we Gentiles were given the blessing of forgiveness of sins in the promise to Abraham (Gal 3), and we're under the same promise as Isaac (Gal 4:28). So where do you come up with our forgiveness of sins in Jer 31:34, when we Gentiles aren't even mentioned in the promise? That's a little bizarre, don't you think?

You see the problem with Dispys is that they only look at the OT scriptures and skip over the NT fulfillment of those scriptures, because they are convinced that the New Covenant is not for them but for the Jews.

Do you partake of the Lord's Supper at your church? If so, why do you partake of it, if the New Covenant or Testament is not for you?
1 Cor 11:25 After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance of me.
Testament and Covenant or the same words here(diatheke). Therefore if the blood of Christ was the blood of the New Testament/Covenant as the Bible says it is then why would you be partaking it?

You see Jesus shed His blood in fulfillment of the promise of the New Covenant given by God in Jer 31:31-35. He was the provision or fulfillment of the promise. Now if you have taken Christ as your Saviour then you have appropriated His shed blood of the New Covenant to wash away your sins. Now if the New Covenant is not for you then your sins can not be forgiven.

Correct. What promise was Isaac under? He was dead and gone when you say the New Covenant began, so it can't be the New Covenant, not even by your own incorrect definition of it's start. So please answer the question: WHAT COVENANT IS ISAAC UNDER???? Because you and I are under the very same one, according to scripture.

Isaac was in the Old Covenant but was promised the New Covenant as was all of the children of promise. You see those in the Old Covenant saints could not be made perfect until Christ's blood of the New Covenant was shed. All the righteous OT saints were made perfect along with us in Christ.(Heb 11:40) They believed in Christ but could not be made perfect without us and without the shed blood of the New Covenant. Isaac looked forward in faith to the coming of the New Covenant Messiah and His shed blood of the NC for their salvation and we look backwards in faith to the New Covenant blood of Christ for our salvation. So yes you are right, we, as well as Isaac, are all under the New Covenant.

Dispys tend to skip over the New Testament fulfillment of the Old Covenant promises. They do that because if the promises are fulfilled in the Church, Dispensationalism will collapse. In fact if you study the evolution of Dispensationalism since it's inception in the 1880s you will see that it is slowly but surely collapsing for lack of a scriptural base.

GLJCA

 

[biblebeliever123]

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GRACE.

 

[eph3Nine]

foundinhim said

Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, ACCORDING TO THE RICHES OF HIS GRACE.

No covenant mentioned there, folks.

Jer. 31:31 tells us to whom the NEW COVENANT will be. The same folks to whom the OLD one was.

By the way, the NEW covenant has not yet gone into effect for Israel as God has SET ASIDE or STOPPED that program temporarily. We are in the program of the "preaching of Jesus Christ (NOT according to PROPHECY, or the OT,but) according to the REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY..."

The Body of Christ is under GRACE. NO covenant in effect for us with regard to OLD/NEW covenant which belonged to the Nation Israel alone.

 

[Jerrysch]

What is the primary meaning of Israel in the Bible.
Everyone agrees that there are types in the Bible. The tabernacle and temple are types of the body of Christ. The sacrifices were types of the ultimate sacrifice, Christ and so on and so on. The question is: Could Israel be a type of the Church I.E the elect of God from the beginning of time.
What does the Bible say........

Interesting question. There is a movement within the Body of Messiah (Christ) which seeks to supplant Israel with the "church", now this is not your question, yet it is an off shoot of this same question. The truth of this matter can be seen in the book of Revelation where again, after the body has completed its work, again ethnic Israel is called upon once again to be them by which YHWH demonstrates His glory. This is shown in the choosing and work of the 144,000 of ethnic Israel who go out throughout the world on their missionary task. You will find that the Bible is a lot clearer in its meaning when one allows Israel to refer to those whose lineage is of the sons of Israel and not of some redefined group.

 

[stratt]

Is the truth not in the middle? Israel is separate from the church, just as melkesidek was seperate from christs. But they are types. The use of the term "type" implys that at their core, they are seperate.
Would it not be possible to acknowledge the differences but compare the types? for instance, promised land, passover, the land with giants, high priest, moses, and so on? Any one of the different dispensations could be seen in relation to the current dispensation, and therefore become a type. could it not? In fact, acknoleding the different dispensations can in fact help one to more accurately see the types.

 

[ddub85]

@ GLJCA

Now ddub how can you say that this has nothing to do with Gentiles when Paul was writting it to a Gentile Church telling them that they were Abraham's seed.

We are Abraham's seed. There is no argument regarding that point. But the Bible does not say that we receive the New Covenant because we are Abraham's seed. What the Bible states plainly is that we are fellowheirs, and as fellowheirs we are to receive what we've been allotted/assigned. What we've been allotted/assigned is the single promise reiterated by Paul in Gal 3:8;

Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, [saying], In thee shall all nations be blessed.

When you read the NT, you'll see this written consistently throughout the Bible, that we Gentiles have been allotted, and receive this promise, which includes salvation and all that we need.

The promise that Isaac was under is the same promise that the Church is given today.

You'll get no argument from me on that point. The problem for you is that the Bible never says Isaac was under the New Covenant, nor does it say anyone else is currently under the New Covenant. It also never says that Gentiles will ever be under the New Covenant. But you believe all of these things which the Bible never says.

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye [being] in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Covenants of PROMISE (singular). Take note.

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
Ddub, how do you think that you were given the privilege of the forgiveness of sins?

What I think is irrelevant. The Bible clearly says, "that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament," pointing out clearly that the forgiveness of sins were under the Old Covenant. Jesus' blood wasn't just for the New Covenant, it covered both.

Hbr 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

It was because of the promises given to Israel in Jer 31:31-35. You as a Gentile do not have any basis to have your sins forgiven apart from that promise.

You are coming to that conclusion on your own, without any biblical support. First, Jer 31:31-35 never mentions Gentiles. Not only that, but when it is repeated in the NT in Hebrews 8, it still never mentions us Gentiles. We are still excluded. The promise is never given to us, NOWHERE in the Bible! If it was our way to salvation, the Bible would've stated it over and over and over again. Line upon line, precept upon precept. It never does, but you rest all of salvation upon a promise we're never included in. Bizarre.

You see Jesus Christ was the fulfillment and provision of God for that promise.

OK,...

God said that he would forgive their sins and remember them no more.

OK,...

How was He going to do that since a Holy God required a perfect sacrifice for that sin?

He sent the perfect sacrifice, His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. What's the problem?

The only way was to send His Son Jesus Christ.

OK,...

If this promise doesn't apply to you then you have no basis to say that you are forgiven and you are dead in your sins and God will remember your sins forever. The blood of Christ is the blood of the New Covenant.

And as you've been shown, that blood covers the sins of the Old Covenant as well. But the difference is that the bible never says we're under the New Covenant, nor does it say that the New covenant is for Gentiles. YOU say that, but the Bible does not. The Bible says we're under the same covenant as Isaac, which is NOT the New covenant.

Almost all Dispys have no understanding of God's covenants.

All of the covenants that God has made with man have been built on top of the one before it. The New Covenant is no different. It was built on and based on the Old Covenant promises given to Israel but unbelieving Israel rejected their Messiah and therefore was divorced by God and the believing Church of Jesus Christ, which was grafted into the olive tree, covenant Israel, became the Israel of God.

Now that's a mouthful. Mostly incorrect, but a mouthful nonetheless.
Let me just begin with this question. We Gentiles were "grafted in", correct? Don't we have to be grafted into something that is already in place? What was in place? The Old Covenant. We obviously weren't grafted into what was coming, as that wouldn't even make sense. We were grafted into what was already in place.
Next, you make the 'quantum leap' that you CTers love to make, and declare Gentiles Israel, when the Bible NEVER says such a thing. God doesn't say it, but YOU have decided that it will be that way. When you do that, you create your own gospel, attempting to supercede what God has said. Without the 'quantum leap', you understand there is no CT theology, so you must make it, even though it's not biblical, and you can't prove it with scripture.
Third, you speak as if God is finished with Israel. God tells us clearly over and over again that His Covenant with Israel is an everlasting covenant, that can't be broken. Need I go on about that?

The promises that were given in Jer 31 are now being appropriated by the Church of Jesus Christ. Otherwise you would not be able to call God, your God, nor would He call you one of His people. Your sins could not be forgiven because the promise of forgiveness of sins comes from God's promise to Israel concerning the New Covenant.

Incorrect. The Bible sas no such thing. I challenge you to list the scripture(s) that says the Church has benn appropriated the promises of Jer 31, and that is the only way my sins could be forgiven. I'm calling that a lie, and I'm challenging you to defend your position with scripture.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than [that of] Abel.
The writer here shows that when someone comes to Christ they come to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, to the Church of the firstborn...

OK,...

...and to the New Covenant.

NO. Again, you are adding to God's word. The scripture says that Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. That's all it says. It says absolutely nothing about it being for you, or anyone else. It only says that Jesus is the mediator of it. You're reaching for something, because you have been searching, and you're starting to realize that the Bible says absolutely nothing about you being under the New Covenant.

All of these names, mount Sion, heavenly Jerusalem, general assembly and church of the firstborn are speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ.

All irrelevant to what we're discussing, so I digress. What is relevant is that the statement about the New Covnenant pertains only to Jesus Christ, and isn't speaking about you or I.
Quote:
No. That's NOT what the Bible says. The Bible says "heirs according to the promise (singular)". YOU, on the other hand, say "heir to those promises." YOU are not quoting the Bible, you're misquoting the Bible in order for it to coincide with what you believe. If God had meant "heir to those promises", He would have said so. But He said "heirs according to the promise".

There's a big difference between the two.
You caught me. I am guilty of adding an "s" to the word promise. Wow does that negate all that I said just because I added an "s" to the word promise? I think not!!

As a matter of fact, yes it does. It negates your inclusion of Gentiles being Jews, which pretty much brings your entire theology crashing down.
If I added an "s" to say,... Holy Spirit, making it Holy Spirits, would tht change anything? Of course! If God meant promises, He would have said promises. He didn't. He said promise, because that's what He meant. Let's stick with what the Bible says.

Are you trying so hard to find something wrong so you can trash all that I said?

I'm not trying hard to find anything. I'm simply pointing out to you that you're misquoting the Bible, and it changes the meaning of what God is saying. If that upsets you, I'm sorry. But the truth will still be the truth, even if none of us accept it.

OK I will say it just like Paul did.
Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Thank you. The promises (plural) are to the seed, which includes both Jews and Gentiles. BOTH are the seed, and therefore all of the promises are present in the seed.
Footnote: How important is the "s" added to seed in this verse? Paul emphasized very carefully that there is to be no "s" added. Pretty important, heh?

To be continued...

 

[foundinHim]

Is the truth not in the middle? Israel is separate from the church, just as melkesidek was seperate from christs. But they are types. The use of the term "type" implys that at their core, they are seperate.
Would it not be possible to acknowledge the differences but compare the types? for instance, promised land, passover, the land with giants, high priest, moses, and so on? Any one of the different dispensations could be seen in relation to the current dispensation, and therefore become a type. could it not? In fact, acknoleding the different dispensations can in fact help one to more accurately see the types.

dear stratt:

I have studied a little on the types of Christ which are found in the other dispensations in God's Written Word. Why don't you start a new thread for this discussion, o.k.? I think it would be great. I've only been at this forum for a few months, so I don't know if a study on types has ever been discussed here.