Israel

[Hedgehog]

See, I read that as something totally different.
I read it as being about the Jews who say they are "Jews" but are not.
The people who feel like they are the people of God just because they have blood( ethnic Israel) but have no faith.
God also says " come out of her my people"
Who else was the "her" than Israel?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

let's read the passage...

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not but do lie, behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Notice in the context talking to the Smyrna and Philadelphia churches ...what is the biggest promise to the Jews in the Old Testament that every one is reading from "Christian book stores"..... Prayer of Jebez[sp]

Yet the NT christain is not given that promise

1 tim 6:5-8

philippians 4:12-13

dangerous ground to take promises from someone else and live itfor yourself.

within the verse of rev 2:9 what is there problem...tribulaion[outside pressure] and poverty Yet God says they are rich[in faith]

if one is poor what are people going to say ?

why does God not prosper you since youy believe you must have sinned.

rev 3:9 ...doing same thing just a little different

 

[Dispy]

Hedgehog and others:
I have a book that I would like to send you,AT MY EXPENSE that will explain "The Mystery" that was revealed to the Apostle Pau. "The MYSTERY' is the title of the book and is written by Joel Finck. Also, I do believe it will help in studying the Bible in the proper manner to make it more understandable.

To obtain a copy of this book, just e-mail me you mailing address at jellema@alliancecom.net and I will send a copy out to you. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential and not send any other unrequested materials.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Huguenot]

Hedgehog and others:
I have a book that I would like to send you,AT MY EXPENSE that will explain "The Mystery" that was revealed to the Apostle Pau. "The MYSTERY' is the title of the book and is written by Joel Finck. Also, I do believe it will help in studying the Bible in the proper manner to make it more understandable.

To obtain a copy of this book, just e-mail me you mailing address at jellema@alliancecom.net and I will send a copy out to you. I PROMISE to keep that information confidential and not send any other unrequested materials.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

So the Church was a mystery? Well how do you explain the following:

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have [Gentiles], which are not of this fold [Jews]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold [the church], and one shepherd [Christ]."

 

[Dispy]

So the Church was a mystery? Well how do you explain the following:

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have [Gentiles], which are not of this fold [Jews]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold [the church], and one shepherd [Christ]."

As you no doubt know, Israel was divided. The 10 northern tribes resided in Samaria, and the two southern tribes in the land of Judah.

Jesus was the "Good Sepherd" of all of Israel, however Israel was divided. Jesus Himself commanded His disciples, Matthew 10:5 "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, AND INTO ANY CITY OF THE SAMARITIANS ENTER YE NOT;

The "other sheep" of John 10:16 are the 10 northern tribes. They must be brought back into the "fold" before the Jews, as a nation, can be the blessing to the families (nations) of the earth; as promised Abram in Genesis 12:1-3.

Also, notice the order that Jesus gave His disciples in Acts 1:8. They are to be witnesses to Jerusalem (Luke 24:47), then Judah (Matthew 10), then Samaria, and then the utter most parts of the earth. Israel, as a unified nation to to carry out the "so called" great commission.

Further, the "so called" great commission cannot be carried out in this dispensation of grace, but it will be after the rapture of the Chruch, the Body of Christ.

The Chruch for today, the Body of Christ, consists of believing "set aside" Gentiles (Gen.11), and Jews (Rms.11:7-12), on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. Can you SHOW ME this Chruch in prophesy, or the Gospels, and the 1st 8 chapters of the book of the Acts? Or, before the raising up of Saul/Paul? I don't think so. If you can I PROMISE I will believe you.

Highly recomment you request a copy of the book I offered.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often, and Love the Lord!

 

[Huguenot]

The Chruch for today, the Body of Christ, consists of believing "set aside" Gentiles (Gen.11), and Jews (Rms.11:7-12), on equal footing, without distinction, and not under the Law. Can you SHOW ME this Chruch in prophesy, or the Gospels, and the 1st 8 chapters of the book of the Acts? Or, before the raising up of Saul/Paul? I don't think so. If you can I PROMISE I will believe you.

The mystery is simply "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:" but was this a new body or was it not the expansion of the old?

Eph 2:12, 19 "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:...therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Notice also in Romans 1 "Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)". The gospel was preached in the OT indeed in Romans 9 we read "As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God."

In Romans and Galatians Paul redefines what is meant by Israel explaining "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" but rather "he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God" and so "he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh".

Paul notes that "In Isaac shall thy seed be called". Now the point is made well in Galatians 3 and 4. Paul argues that "he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise" and so "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise" and like Isaac "we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

In Galatians he notes that "to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" and therefore "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise". We Christians are the seed of Abraham...true Israel. This is further borne out by Romans 11.

 

[Hedgehog]

Dispy,
thank you so much for such a kind offer
I will gladly take you up on your offer, if you think it contains info I have nor read in other books.

I have read plenty of rightly dividing/dispensationalist/ultra dispensationalists books.. seen plenty of video tapes too.
Ive read Things that Differ..( cant remember who thats by), the Triumph of His Grace.. Paul Sadler I believe.. Keith Blades, Richard Jordan etc etc..oh and that Moses vs. Paul book.. know that one? I cant remember who its by either.
I have heard of Joel Finck, cant remember if Ive read that book or if he has others.

I just got done rereading the Big Difference between the 2 Gospels, by Bob Hill, I think it is?
Ive read many many books. I even belong still( and have for years) a graceladies yahoo group- all of which women have the same beliefs. I value dispensationalists opinions, I really do. I even see much truth in it.

It isnt that I dont know the dispensationalists viewpoints. Its just that I see a few things differently now.

The one question I ask myself now though is that, the plan of salvation / the coming of the Christ and what he would do was laid out in the law and the prophets, and there is no telling of a time gap that is a period of a dispensation of grace.
Isnt the way a person can "test" whether something is of God or not, is if it is in the scriptures?
That "grace period" was not in the scriptures. Paul would have then known that wasnt Jesus talking to him, if he was telling him extrabiblical stuff.

I KNOW that it says it was "never before known" , it doesnt say never before WRITTEN does it?
It simply wasnt known because(ethnic) Israel was *blind*, *asleep*,in *darkness*. They didnt *see* what the law and prophets all meant.
They( Israel) was still "blind" when Jesus walked the earth. Even the disciples didnt understand the things Jesus told them. Jesus came to shed the "light".

Oh one last point, several times it says first that Jesus himself expounded out of the law and the prophets about who he was and what he was to do.
Then it says Paul expounded out of the law and the prohets about Jesus.

Every bit of the salvation message is right there in the OT.

the mystery was simply the salvation message, the coming of the christ and how it would all unfold.
It was a mystery simply because , though it had always been there, it was never "seen" by anyone until Jesus came and shed the light on it.
Instead of seeing it thru the law, they let the law decieve them.

 

[Huguenot]

the mystery was simply the salvation message, the coming of the christ and how it would all unfold.

Be very careful...Paul states in Ephesians 3 that the mystery was "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:". Everything else was already known

 

[Hedgehog]

Be very careful...Paul states in Ephesians 3 that the mystery was "That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:". Everything else was already known

Who was it known by? If you say the apostles, it(anything else-salvation, what the Christ would do etc) was known for a very short time,Truth can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit couldnt come until Jesus died.
So yeah, you may be right, the apostles already knew the truth of the salvation message when before Paul, and he let it be known that the gentiles were partakers.
The apostles didnt even understand much while Jesus was here, and Jesus says they only understood what they did because the Father revealed it to them.

 

[St. George]

Who was it known by? If you say the apostles, it(anything else-salvation, what the Christ would do etc) was known for a very short time,Truth can only be revealed by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit couldnt come until Jesus died.
So yeah, you may be right, the apostles already knew the truth of the salvation message when before Paul, and he let it be known that the gentiles were partakers.
The apostles didnt even understand much while Jesus was here, and Jesus says they only understood what they did because the Father revealed it to them.

The mystery is ONLY that Jew and Gentile will be placed upon an equal footing. In your view what is the 'mystery'?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

So the Church was a mystery? Well how do you explain the following:

John 10:16 "And other sheep I have [Gentiles], which are not of this fold [Jews]: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold [the church], and one shepherd [Christ]."

Did the Jew understand? No...did not say Gentile or Jew there
you are monday night QBing

How many mystery's are there ? 12 by Paul.

 

[Jerrysch]

one thing more lol
I dont have any idea what a regular dispensationalist believes, but ultra dispensationalists believe that we are toally under grace and essentially could do anything we want sin wise and we are sealed, and saved forever once we trust in Jesus.

But I wonder now, if we're not as "free" as that? and that hebrews and the other books apply to us as well?

There are three characteristisc of dispensationalists

1. A distinction between ethnic Israel and the church, they are two different peoples by which God brings glory to himself.

2. Use of a consistant literal (or plain) hermenunic

3. The recognition that God's purpose is to glorify Himself.

The other issue of licence regarding being "free to do what ever we want". Is truely unBiblical. Nowhere in scripture are Christians adminished to live like this. Paul summed it up in Romans 6

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. ​

And further;
​

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
​

Christians are to die to sin and live unto God.​