Israel

[Hedgehog]

I just thought of something that seems deep to me, but no one else(IRL) seems to understand what Im asking. LOL

I have been of ultra dispensationalist beliefs( for the most part) for many years and I know they say we(church) are not "spiritual" Israel and that Israel has not been done away with and will once again come under the spotlight with God during the tribulation......

Where as I have wondered why Paul says in Romans 9 : basically " Yikes, it isnt my kinsmen, my "blood" people who are Gods chosen, its the people of faith, and Im really sad about that, and most of them do not understand"

But dispensationalists say no, Israel IS Gods chosen and will be dealt with once again.

An ultra dispensationalist would say Pauls epistles , Romans thru Philemon are for the church, and Hebrews thru Revelation is not " the marching orders" for our dispensation of grace but are for Israel and will be useful during tribulation times.

Ok here is my question: It seems to be a statement that the book is titled HEBREWS.
Why not " the epistle to Israel" ?Why are they once again refered to as Hebrews, where as they had been refered to as "Israel" for so long?

It seems (in my opinon) to be connected to what Paul was saying in Romans 9? That " Israel" isnt the "Hebrews"?

Does anyone see what Im saying?

 

[Steve Petersen]

Remember in Acts that there are a group of Jews called Hellenists? I think that the name Hebrews (in reference to the book of the same name) is written to Israeli Jews. It is not an epistle to Israel at large but to a specific group of Jews, Israeli believers who had been booted from the Temple.

 

[Hedgehog]

But isnt it them who Peter and the apostles go to first?The jews?
Isnt that what " the light" is all about? Shedding "light" on the darkness, the "shadow" (of the law) that Israel had been under for so long?
Why a seperate book just for them? Wouldnt they be a part of the church now? Paul says there is no Jew or Gentile now under grace, why the seperate book for them?

 

[Dispy]

I just thought of something that seems deep to me, but no one else(IRL) seems to understand what Im asking. LOL

I have been of ultra dispensationalist beliefs( for the most part) for many years and I know they say we(church) are not "spiritual" Israel and that Israel has not been done away with and will once again come under the spotlight with God during the tribulation......

Where as I have wondered why Paul says in Romans 9 : basically " Yikes, it isnt my kinsmen, my "blood" people who are Gods chosen, its the people of faith, and Im really sad about that, and most of them do not understand"

But dispensationalists say no, Israel IS Gods chosen and will be dealt with once again.

An ultra dispensationalist would say Pauls epistles , Romans thru Philemon are for the church, and Hebrews thru Revelation is not " the marching orders" for our dispensation of grace but are for Israel and will be useful during tribulation times.

Ok here is my question: It seems to be a statement that the book is titled HEBREWS.
Why not " the epistle to Israel" ?Why are they once again refered to as Hebrews, where as they had been refered to as "Israel" for so long?

It seems (in my opinon) to be connected to what Paul was saying in Romans 9? That " Israel" isnt the "Hebrews"?

Does anyone see what Im saying?

The book of Hebrews is written to a specific group - Jewish believers that were same under the preaching of "the gospel of the grace of God," not "the gospel of the kingdom."

The Judaizers were coming in ang trying to get them to go back under the Law. The author is showing them that they have better better postiion under "Grace" then the "Law." So the book of Hebrews is written to Jewish believers.

God had set the nation of Israel aside (Rms.11:7-12) temporiarly (vs 25), and placed them on equal footing with the Gentiles that were set aside back in Genesis 11, at the Tower of Babel (vs 32). Therefore there is presently no distinction between them.

The term Israel usually refers to all members with Jewish blood. That includes believers as well as not believers. Those Jews that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" are "kingdom saints," and will inherit the earthly kingdom. Those Jews that were saved under the preaching of "the gospel of the kingdom" are "body saints," and will enter our heavenly hope, not the kingdom.

Therefore, I conclude that the "Hebrews" mentioned in the book by that name, is just identifying them as Jewish believers. Even though all Jews can be called Hebrews, not all are believers.

I am what is considered an Acts 9/mid-Acts dispensationalist, but do not believe I am a hyper-dispensationalist.

God Bless.
Live Well, Laugh Often and Love the Lord!

 

[Hedgehog]

Just had another thought.
They're called Hebrews because there is no jew and gentile distinction after the revealing of the fact that the law was a shadow of what Jesus would do.
I feel like Pauls mystery wasnt a dispensation time of grace but the mystery was the mystery of Christ.... what the law foreshadowed.
Im starting to believe that Hebrews and the other books ARE really just the "meat" of salvation like Hebrews says, and Paul preached "milk" because he was talking to gentiles that knew nothing about God.

 

[Hedgehog]

one thing more lol
I dont have any idea what a regular dispensationalist believes, but ultra dispensationalists believe that we are toally under grace and essentially could do anything we want sin wise and we are sealed, and saved forever once we trust in Jesus.

But I wonder now, if we're not as "free" as that? and that hebrews and the other books apply to us as well?

 

[GenemZ]

Just had another thought.
They're called Hebrews because there is no jew and gentile distinction after the revealing of the fact that the law was a shadow of what Jesus would do.

Hebrews, is like Ephesians. It was written to groups of churches in a certain local. The Church in Jerusalem had its unique set of problems to be dealt with. They (Jewish believers) were ones who were used to living under Law, and were also used to the Temple rituals. So, this Epistle was directed to them specifically. But, the entire Church can benefit from the insights shared in that letter.

I feel like Pauls mystery wasnt a dispensation time of grace but the mystery was the mystery of Christ.... what the law foreshadowed.

We have been given a unique dispensation of grace. Paul's mystery was the unveiliing of the previously hidden faith that our new grace is to give the power to enable us to live in it.

Peter even mentions that we have been given a new additional grace that OT sainsts did not receive.

1 Peter 1:10-11 niv
"Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."

OT saints received grace to be saved. But, we receive an additional type of grace that goes beyond what they could know.

Im starting to believe that Hebrews and the other books ARE really just the "meat" of salvation like Hebrews says, and Paul preached "milk" because he was talking to gentiles that knew nothing about God.

Every Epistle contains some milk and some meat. Its like a pool with a shallow end, and a deep end. If your capacity is low, then you will only perceive so much of what's set before you. If you saw what Paul wrote in the Greek, being directly translated to you, you would begin to see that his Epistles contained the most meat of any of the NT authors. Mainstream translators try to write in such a way that any baby Christian can sit down and read it through with minimal confusion.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Tractor1]

I feel like Pauls mystery wasnt a dispensation time of grace but the mystery was the mystery of Christ.... what the law foreshadowed.

Paul interprets the mystery for you. "to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel" (Eph. 3:6).

In Christ,
Tracey

 

[FreeinChrist]

I just thought of something that seems deep to me, but no one else(IRL) seems to understand what Im asking. LOL

I have been of ultra dispensationalist beliefs( for the most part) for many years and I know they say we(church) are not "spiritual" Israel and that Israel has not been done away with and will once again come under the spotlight with God during the tribulation......

Where as I have wondered why Paul says in Romans 9 : basically " Yikes, it isnt my kinsmen, my "blood" people who are Gods chosen, its the people of faith, and Im really sad about that, and most of them do not understand"

But dispensationalists say no, Israel IS Gods chosen and will be dealt with once again.

An ultra dispensationalist would say Pauls epistles , Romans thru Philemon are for the church, and Hebrews thru Revelation is not " the marching orders" for our dispensation of grace but are for Israel and will be useful during tribulation times.

Ok here is my question: It seems to be a statement that the book is titled HEBREWS.
Why not " the epistle to Israel" ?Why are they once again refered to as Hebrews, where as they had been refered to as "Israel" for so long?

It seems (in my opinon) to be connected to what Paul was saying in Romans 9? That " Israel" isnt the "Hebrews"?

Does anyone see what Im saying?

Contrary to what a few have written, scholars I have read wrote that the book of Hebrews was written to Hellenistic Jews living away from Jerusalem, but still valuing the temple. It was written in Koine Greek.
The book of Hebrews puts it all together. It show how the OT covenant pointed to Christ all along and how He fulfilled the temple worship.
The assum[ption is made that by the use of "holy bretheren", that the audience consists of all Christians. But it is a gospel for Jews - shows so clearly what the Law was pointing to.
The OT law was the 'milk' of the gospel. The meat is understanding that Jesus mediated a better covenant, based on better promises, made with a better sacrifice with better blood offerred at a better sancuary by a better High Priest, who holds His priesthood permanently. He is better than the angels, and a better steward over his house than Moses.


None of this changes that God is not done with Israel yet (Romans 11). And as for Israel, 2/3's will be lost but 1/3 will be brought through the fire (see Zechariah 12-14).

But I would question ultradispensationism on other grounds. I am a more classical dispie myself.

 

[Hedgehog]

I guess my point was that I have been taught that Hebrews is not written for the church , neither are the books after, and I dont clearly see that. That they are not for us.

I have been taught that Hebrews is for a dispensation where they have to add works to faith, like James says " faith without works is dead".

 

[GenemZ]

Contrary to what a few have written, scholars I have read wrote that the book of Hebrews was written to Hellenistic Jews living away from Jerusalem, but still valuing the temple. It was written in Koine Greek.

Hebrews 6 was about Jewish believers returning under the mandates of the Law, and were crucifying Jesus afresh and putting him to public shame, because they were offering animal blood sacrifices for their sins. They had to be in Jerusalem to do that. These Jewish believers were caught up in the legalistic insanity that the Judaizers pushed in the Churches of Paul's. It was impossible to get them to repent. For, all you could ever tell them that would get them to repent, they already knew for themselves. THey were in blind defiance to the truth that saved them.

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace." (Hebrews 6:4-6)

By going back under the sacrifices of the Law, they were declaring the work of Christ on the Cross as not being sufficient to save. By offering animal blood sacrifices (could only be performed in Jerusalem at the Temple) they were putting the saving work of Jesus to public disgrace. There was no way to get them to repent, for they already knew what they needed to know to repent the first time. These had entered into a form of religious insanity. It would be impossible to reason with them. Leave them go (message for those who accepted the truth) and move on into maturity in Christ.

"Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity..." (Hebrews 6:1a)

The writer was telling those who did accept God's grace, to stop wasting their time in reasoning with the insane. For it was impossible to bring them back to repentance. And, to move forward to discover what it is they are to find in their new life in Christ.

It was written to those involved with facing Jewish believers who were zealous for the Law. Paul was sucked into this when he visited Jerusalem. Paul almost lost his life for such compromise with the Truth.

Grace and peace, GeneZ

 

[Huguenot]

Romans 9:6-8 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians 4:28 "Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise."

Hedgehog, greeting from an ex-ultradispensationalist

I seriously suggest that you spend time with Romans and Galatians. I believe that they clearly teach that Israel who are spiritual Jews is the true Israel to whom the covenants were made and who are the children of the promise and are the election and that Israel who is the physical unspiritual Jews have been blinded. So who are spiritual Jews?

Romans 2:28-29 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Romans 11:7 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

I hope these colourful ramblings have made a little sense

 

[mcfly1960]

I hope these colourful ramblings have made a little sense

Yes, great post!

 

[ChristianMuse]

The book of Hebrews was certainly meant for a target audience (perhaps the messianic church). But, like all the letters of the new testament it is of educational use to the whole church. There are truths found there that are not easily seen or included in other letters. There is a covenant with the physical Israel and there is a covenant with the spiritual Israel. Each will have their fulfillment at different times. Hebrews is trying to deal with the cross over effect between the two.

 

[Dave Taylor]

Praise the Lord, and how he is working and moving in your life and your study now Hedgehog!

It is truly amazing and wonderful to see when this begins to occur. He will answer the confused questions; as He has already begun to do; and will continue to remove the uncertainty and replace it with His truth.

I have seen Him do this in my own life (a 'recovered dispensationalist') and in the lives of many of His children. Great to see Him leading and moving you toward His truth!

Israel has always truly been intended as a label for God's people of Faith; starting when it was first applied; not to a group of people; but to the man named Jacob.

Just remember to test things folks tell you against the NT teachings; the advice earlier to read Galatians and Romans was excellent. The more you familiarize yourself with the NT writings; the more clear God's will in this matter will be in your life.

Not by race; not by gender; not by group....but by faith.

"For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

 

[A Brother In Christ]

I just thought of something that seems deep to me, but no one else(IRL) seems to understand what Im asking. LOL

I have been of ultra dispensationalist beliefs( for the most part) for many years and I know they say we(church) are not "spiritual" Israel and that Israel has not been done away with and will once again come under the spotlight with God during the tribulation......

Where as I have wondered why Paul says in Romans 9 : basically " Yikes, it isnt my kinsmen, my "blood" people who are Gods chosen, its the people of faith, and Im really sad about that, and most of them do not understand"

But dispensationalists say no, Israel IS Gods chosen and will be dealt with once again.

An ultra dispensationalist would say Pauls epistles , Romans thru Philemon are for the church, and Hebrews thru Revelation is not " the marching orders" for our dispensation of grace but are for Israel and will be useful during tribulation times.

Ok here is my question: It seems to be a statement that the book is titled HEBREWS.
Why not " the epistle to Israel" ?Why are they once again refered to as Hebrews, where as they had been refered to as "Israel" for so long?

It seems (in my opinon) to be connected to what Paul was saying in Romans 9? That " Israel" isnt the "Hebrews"?

Does anyone see what Im saying?

Galations 3:28 There is no Jew or Greek, there is neither slave or frr, there is neither male or female, for ye are all one in Christ Jesus

this took affect at penacost

Hebrews were Jewish Christians that had some doctrinal problems

 

[Hedgehog]

Hebrews were Jewish Christians that had some doctrinal problems
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes I do believe that. I believe Hebrews was written to Hebrews who knew the law well and Paul( who I personally think wrote Hebrews) was convincing them of what Jesus life and death did.
I believe its probably the information he was telling them when it says he "expounded morning till evening"

Act 28:23 And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into [his] lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and [out of] the prophets, from morning till evening.


My point was that Dispensationalists think that Israel is not a nation under Gods spot light right now, that we are all under grace, but that Israel will once again come under God's spotlight and that is when Hebrews -Revelation will be fulfilled.

Where as personally, I think ethnic Israel has been done away with, but the "Israel of God" ( faithful) hasnt been and never can be.

Because if Hebrews-Revelations was for when the dispensation of grace is gone, well then there would once again be Jew and Gentile and God would have called them " Israel" not Hebrews.

 

[A Brother In Christ]

have you read Rev 2:9, rev 3:9

warning of taking promises of Jews and trying to take them for the church

no thanks

we the church have the greatest promise Hebrews 11:40
if one believes in the church age they are neither Jew or Gentile ... Gal 3:28

a Jewish person that is carnal would be acting like a jew to the world but Christ would see them as in Christ

 

[Huguenot]

have you read Rev 2:9, rev 3:9

warning of taking promises of Jews and trying to take them for the church

How so?

 

[A Brother In Christ]

have you read Rev 2:9, rev 3:9

warning of taking promises of Jews and trying to take them for the church

Hugenotasked "how so"

let's read the passage...

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not but are the synagogue of Satan.


Rev 3:9 Behold I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not but do lie, behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

Notice in the context talking to the Smyrna and Philadelphia churches ...what is the biggest promise to the Jews in the Old Testament that every one is reading from "Christian book stores"..... Prayer of Jebez[sp]

Yet the NT christain is not given that promise

1 tim 6:5-8

philippians 4:12-13

dangerous ground to take promises from someone else and live itfor yourself.