Israel-Hamas Thread II

RDKirk · Dec 10, 2023

o_mlly said:
How does that negate my post's claim that: The authority of the Geneva Convention, as are all legal documents, depends on its underlying moral principles? Surely you do not subscribe to "might makes right"?

Perhaps the salient point is that, regardless of (or because of) the content of the Geneva Conventions, the Israelis have a moral right to self-defense, especially against such an unjust and barbaric foe. Given, a nation's right to self-defense is not unconditional. But do you have proof beyond a reasonable doubt that Israel has not conducted so far a just war?

I'm not arguing that Israel has conducted an unjust war.

I will argue that Israel considers itself in a constant state of existential crisis, and that's due to both ancient and recent Jewish history and recent Israeli history ("recent" being within current living memory).

At this point, and it's literally been in only the last three days, I have heard only one authoritative Muslim state official support the concept of Israel's existence.

What I think is of real moral question is this curious concept of "proportionality in war." This is rather a new concept. Interestingly, there was an old Star Trek episode that spoke to the immorality of "proportionality in war," specifically because proportionality makes continual war tolerable. Peace agreements become possible only when the war becomes intolerable for at least one of the parties involved.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

o_mlly said:
Reality? Apparently, the big picture escapes you: Hamas to the west, Hezbollah to the north, the West Bank to the east, Yemen to the south and Iran pulling their puppets strings.

You actually quoted me saying 'On their own.' I even made it a point in isolation so you'd notice it. I will say it again. Hamas has no chance of destroying Israel. On their own.

In the meantime, Muslims all around the Middle East are watching their innocent religious brothers and sisters (and children) being killed in the thousands by Israel. Apparently some think it's a numbers game and the deaths are all relative. Hey, throw in some Latin and it's all justified. That's an argument that I reject completely. Do you think it'll convince Hezbollah to the north, the West Bank to the east, Yemen to the south and Iran?

Apparently you think they are a danger to the security of the state of Israel. How about an honest answer to a reasonable question? Is Israel in more danger today than it was two months ago? Or less?

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

o_mlly said:
Is not Hamas the useful idiot of Iran?

It's exceptionally dangerous to discount one's enemy as idiots. Hamas are murderous thugs, but they are not stupid. Anyone with any sense could see that they were poking the bear. Trying to beat it to death with a stick is the action of an idiot. And as we all know, including Hamas, that that was not possible then there must have been a reason for their attack.

You have been keen to point out the dangers surrounding Israel. And I'll ask again: Is Israel now in more danger or less? Try linking the answer to that to why Hamas did what they did and see what you come up with.

Look at the big picture, you said. I'm doing nothing but that. But most people in this thread? They, including you, spend most of their posts in trying to justify the deaths. It's a serious problem of tunnel vision (definitely no pun intended).

Ana the Ist · Dec 10, 2023

truthpls said:
Everyone posts facts in the news.

Right. Those facts are 14 years old though, they haven't ever been debunked, disproven, and journalists who are subject to punitive damages like those reporting....haven't been even charged with slander or libel. If Hamas leadership could prove these are lies...I think it would be at the top of their list of things to do, as it would greatly improve their reputation and expose deliberate Israeli propaganda.

They haven't done this...so no good reason exists to disbelieve it.

truthpls said:
Yet there are opposite versions of what happened.

In the 14yo article I linked or something more recent?

Because as I've already shown...you're just wrong. We have known for a long long time that Hamas engages in these tactics. There's no reason to imagine they stopped.

You can't even provide a reason why anyone should believe that they stopped using their own citizens as shields like cowards.

truthpls said:
One side says Israel built the tunnels as well as the hospital. One side says they saw no Hamas activity in the hospitals..etc.

Right...but given that this is an old and long established tactic of Hamas that has been repeatedly proven time and again....why would you believe Hamas when they claim to not be doing this?

All Hamas would have to do is allow reporters inside their tunnels, or hospitals, and show them conclusively that no terrorists are there. Show them the tunnels don't run under hospitals.

Are you aware this has happened? They have been shown....they are extensive.

truthpls said:
The other side comes in and shows a photo of weapons 'found' in the hospital etc etc

What sort of evidence would you like?

What sort of evidence would you agree is valid?

If you want to say nothing is certain...why are you denying that there are tunnels or operational quarters in and under hospitals?

truthpls said:
So you are not going to tell anyone what the 'fact' is. Only what you chose to believe

If you come out with some evidence...beyond the denial of those engaging in terrorism....I'm more than willing to consider it.

Ana the Ist · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
You actually quoted me saying 'On their own.' I even made it a point in isolation so you'd notice it. I will say it again. Hamas has no chance of destroying Israel. On their own.

...and?

Bradskii said:
In the meantime, Muslims all around the Middle East are watching their innocent religious brothers and sisters (and children) being killed in the thousands by Israel.

Innocent of what?

Bradskii said:
Apparently some think it's a numbers game and the deaths are all relative.

Pretty sure most do.

Bradskii said:
Do you think it'll convince Hezbollah to the north, the West Bank to the east, Yemen to the south and Iran?

I don't think Israel is scared of Lebanon or Syria much....probably not Jordan and definitely not Egypt. Yemen is a graveyard that you apparently are clueless about. It looks like Gaza does now.

Iran may concern them....but they have a long way to travel to project any power at Israel and can be dealt with pretty easily. Hezbollah should take note of the fate of Hamas and decide exactly what they're willing to lose before trying anything.

Bradskii said:
Apparently you think they are a danger to the security of the state of Israel. How about an honest answer to a reasonable question? Is Israel in more danger today than it was two months ago? Or less?

Less. I hate to be the kind of guy who rubs it in but....you know how you said this tactic will never work?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-hamas-rule-in-gaza-faltering-leaked-video-shows-apparent-gunmen-surrender/amp/

It's beginning to look like a solid strategy. Gunmen are surrendering...whether or not you believe they are Hamas (and they almost certainly are).

Valletta · Dec 10, 2023

truthpls said:
The vast vast vast majority of children and women killed were not by Hamas

That is unverified. Please do not base your speculations on information provided by terrorists.

JosephZ · Dec 10, 2023

Ana the Ist said:
Less. I hate to be the kind of guy who rubs it in but....you know how you said this tactic will never work?

It's beginning to look like a solid strategy. Gunmen are surrendering...whether or not you believe they are Hamas (and they almost certainly are).

This post reminds me of when President Bush gave his "mission accomplished" speech in 2003.

Hamas knew before they launched their terrorist attack against Israel on October 7th that they were going to lose a significant number of militants. The surrender of a few hundred or even thousands, along with the deaths of thousands more, was expected. Hamas and other Jihadist terrorist groups have generational goals and know in advance that they are going to take serious losses on the battle field against advanced militaries.

Even if every Hamas terrorist surrendered today, Israel is at a much higher risk of terrorist attacks, and terrorism against Jewish targets around the world is also higher than it was prior to October 7th, and this threat will only increase in the years to come.

RDKirk · Dec 10, 2023

JosephZ said:
This post reminds me of when President Bush gave his "mission accomplished" speech in 2003.

Hamas knew before they launched their terrorist attack against Israel on October 7th that they were going to lose a significant number of militants. The surrender of a few hundred or even thousands, along with the deaths of thousands more, was expected. Hamas and other Jihadist terrorist groups have generational goals and know in advance that they are going to take serious losses on the battle field against advanced militaries.

Even if every Hamas terrorist surrendered today, Israel is at a much higher risk of terrorist attacks, and terrorism against Jewish targets around the world is also higher than it was prior to October 7th, and this threat will only increase in the years to come.

As I said before, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

If they already had "a few hundred or even thousands" of militants ready to die, it would be silly to sacrifice the militants they already have in an effort to create an unknown number of other militants. That makes as much sense as buying a lottery ticket for the price of the jackpot.

rjs330 · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
You actually quoted me saying 'On their own.' I even made it a point in isolation so you'd notice it. I will say it again. Hamas has no chance of destroying Israel. On their own.

In the meantime, Muslims all around the Middle East are watching their innocent religious brothers and sisters (and children) being killed in the thousands by Israel. Apparently some think it's a numbers game and the deaths are all relative. Hey, throw in some Latin and it's all justified. That's an argument that I reject completely. Do you think it'll convince Hezbollah to the north, the West Bank to the east, Yemen to the south and Iran?

Apparently you think they are a danger to the security of the state of Israel. How about an honest answer to a reasonable question? Is Israel in more danger today than it was two months ago? Or less?

I don't think we can answer that until the war is over. If Israel doesn't win I think they will be more danger because the others will see them as beatable. If they do win I think they will be safer because their enemies will see what will happen to them.

It's what I said earlier. You really do not understand the mindset of the middle east in these areas.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

Valletta said:
That is unverified. Please do not base your speculations on information provided by terrorists.

Verified by Israeli officials. As you well know. They stated that the proportion of Hamas killed versus innocent men, women and children gave a figure of 10,000+ innocent people dead.

At some point you are going to have to come to terms with these figures. At which point you will excuse Israel by saying that it's Hamas' fault. In which case, why dispute the numbers? You should be shouting the figures from the rooftops. Every innocent child blown up is another nail in Hamas' coffin!

If the numbers are low, it's well done Israel. If they are high, it's down to Hamas. You are arguing both sides of the fence and it's plain for all to see.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

RDKirk said:
As I said before, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

If they already had "a few hundred or even thousands" of militants ready to die, it would be silly to sacrifice the militants they already have in an effort to create an unknown number of other militants. That makes as much sense as buying a lottery ticket for the price of the jackpot.

The price they are paying now is small change compared to the jackpot they are hoping for.

Valletta · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
Verified by Israeli officials. As you well know. They stated that the proportion of Hamas killed versus innocent men, women and children gave a figure of 10,000+ innocent people dead.

At some point you are going to have to come to terms with these figures. At which point you will excuse Israel by saying that it's Hamas' fault. In which case, why dispute the numbers? You should be shouting the figures from the rooftops. Every innocent child blown up is another nail in Hamas' coffin!

If the numbers are low, it's well done Israel. If they are high, it's down to Hamas. You are arguing both sides of the fence and it's plain for all to see.

Could you please give an exact quote as to what is verified by Israeli officials? I want to make sure we are on the same track.

o_mlly · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
How about an honest answer to a reasonable question? Is Israel in more danger today than it was two months ago? Or less?

Bradskii said:
Is Israel now in more danger or less? Try linking the answer to that to why Hamas did what they did and see what you come up with.

How do you like your crow served, sir, broiled, baked or fried? The only way to confront coward is with force.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

rjs330 said:
I don't think we can answer that until the war is over.

That is a really dumb perspective. Of course you can answer it in advance. Of course you could foresee the complaints against Israel even from nations that they class as friends. Of course you could foresee the reaction of Arab nations in the area.

Just Imagine if this was a Muslim country attacking a Christian one. Wouldn't there be calls for some kind of retribution? Can you imagine the outrage in this forum? You and others would call for a holy war. You wouldn't be giving up this fatuous nonsense about a just war and proportionality and whose fault it was.

rjs330 said:
If Israel doesn't win I think they will be more danger because the others will see them as beatable.

There is zero chance that they will lose. Israel knows that. Hamas knows that. Everyone knows that. You accuse me of not 'understanding the mindset' and then make a monstrously ridiculous statement like that. Hamas wasn't trying to defeat Israel. That is the most inane suggestion possible. All they wanted was a ridiculous over reaction from them. And they got it in spades.

And all you can suggest is hey, maybe we should just wait until it's all over to see what happens. You know, before we actually think about the repercussions.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

Valletta said:
Could you please give an exact quote as to what is verified by Israeli officials? I want to make sure we are on the same track.

'Israel believes that it has killed two Palestinian civilians for every Hamas militant in its intense campaign to eliminate the armed group from the Gaza Strip, a ratio an IDF spokesperson described to CNN Monday as “tremendously positive.”

The AFP news agency first reported the Israeli assessment on Monday, citing a briefing for foreign media by senior Israeli military officials. Asked about reports that about 5,000 Hamas militants had been killed since October 7, one of the officials replied, according to AFP: “The numbers are more or less right.”

According to the AFP report, an unidentified Israeli official said that it was hoped the ratio will be “much lower” in the next phase of the war. “I’m not saying it’s not bad that we have a ratio of two to one,” the official was quoted as saying.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/12/05/middleeast/israel-hamas-military-civilian-ratio-killed-intl-hnk/index.html

You are running out of excuses. Each one more desperate than the next. Is this the point where you accept them and say, as per above, that those figures are 'tremendously positive'? Yet again, if you put the responsibility just on Hamas, why aren't you jumping on the highest figures you could find to show how evil they are? Well, we do all know.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

o_mlly said:
How do you like your crow served, sir, broiled, baked or fried? The only way to confront coward is with force.

It was a simple question. Are they in more danger now, or less?

And here's another tip while you are thinking about the answer to that. Because someone does something despicably abhorrent doesn't make them cowards. That's the second mistake you've made. Now you think they're cowards and stupid.

RDKirk · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
The price they are paying now is small change compared to the jackpot they are hoping for.

The "jackpot" you claim is merely an increase in the number of anti-Israeli terrorists. I'll say again: If they already had "a few hundred or even thousands" of militants ready to die, it would be silly to sacrifice the militants they already have in an effort to create an unknown number of other militants. They already had a militant-creation machine grinding away.

Bradskii · Dec 10, 2023

RDKirk said:
The "jackpot" you claim is merely an increase in the number of anti-Israeli terrorists. I'll say again: If they already had "a few hundred or even thousands" of militants ready to die, it would be silly to sacrifice the militants they already have in an effort to create an unknown number of other militants. They already had a militant-creation machine grinding away.

The jackpot is the end of Israel as a state.

Ana the Ist · Dec 10, 2023

JosephZ said:
This post reminds me of when President Bush gave his "mission accomplished" speech in 2003.

I can understand that.

JosephZ said:
Hamas knew before they launched their terrorist attack against Israel on October 7th that they were going to lose a significant number of militants.

Did they?

JosephZ said:
The surrender of a few hundred or even thousands, along with the deaths of thousands more, was expected.

Pretty awful group of people then.

JosephZ said:
Hamas and other Jihadist terrorist groups have generational goals and know in advance that they are going to take serious losses on the battle field against advanced militaries.

Serious losses.

Yeah.

JosephZ said:
Even if every Hamas terrorist surrendered today, Israel is at a much higher risk of terrorist attacks, and terrorism against Jewish targets around the world is also higher than it was prior to October 7th,

From Muslim terrorists?

JosephZ said:
and this threat will only increase in the years to come.

It's certainly possible....yet no one can predict the future, that's why this threat is being dealt with today.

Ana the Ist · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
It was a simple question. Are they in more danger now, or less?

I don't think anyone really believes you're interested in the safety of Israel.

Bradskii said:
And here's another tip while you are thinking about the answer to that. Because someone does something despicably abhorrent doesn't make them cowards. That's the second mistake you've made. Now you think they're cowards and stupid.

If you want to suggest that they were brave for beheading children ....go ahead.

As for stupid, yeah, it's stupid to devote all your time fighting an enemy you cannot beat. Incredibly stupid.

It's also stupid to support people who have done nothing but murder jews. I recall when Boycott Divest Sanction was taking donations from liberals on US campuses. Look at what they were funding and supporting. Extremely stupid.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Well-Known Member

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Well-Known Member

“Behold, I make all things new.”

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Aggressively serene!

Aggressively serene!

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