Israel-Hamas Thread II

Bradskii · Dec 9, 2023

RDKirk said:
Hamas launched a war that you and I agree they knew would be brutal and unwinnable.

What--besides a war that is winnable--is worth starting a war that will be brutal and unwinnable?

That's not a rhetorical question. Suggest to me a realistically likely situation in which what the Palestinians are going through now will be worth it.

The Palestinians? I don't think they were a consideration by Hamas except as a means to an end. And the end was to trigger the Israelis into a brutal response. That that has happened is not, or should not be in dispute. And I agree with the opinion of (I think) a US ex military guy whose opinion was linked to earlier. And that opinion was that a response such as Israel has exhibited will drastically increase the number of terrorists committed to the destruction of that state.

It's effectively a call to arms. How successful that will be remains to be seen. But I fear that it will lead to a lot more Israeli dead.

RDKirk · Dec 9, 2023

Bradskii said:
And that opinion was that a response such as Israel has exhibited will drastically increase the number of terrorists committed to the destruction of that state.

It's effectively a call to arms. How successful that will be remains to be seen. But I fear that it will lead to a lot more Israeli dead.

And, so, you are talking about an open war.

You really think all Hamas hoped for was more terrorists?

Bradskii · Dec 9, 2023

RDKirk said:
And, so, you are talking about an open war.

You really think all Hamas hoped for was more terrorists?

Not an open war. I don't think the plan was to persuade one of the Arab nations to start the tanks rolling. But yes, more terrorists will be the result. I can't think why else they would have done something so remarkably stupid unless that was the intention.

Valletta · Dec 9, 2023

Bradskii said:
The Palestinians? I don't think they were a consideration by Hamas except as a means to an end. And the end was to trigger the Israelis into a brutal response. That that has happened is not, or should not be in dispute. And I agree with the opinion of (I think) a US ex military guy whose opinion was linked to earlier. And that opinion was that a response such as Israel has exhibited will drastically increase the number of terrorists committed to the destruction of that state.

It's effectively a call to arms. How successful that will be remains to be seen. But I fear that it will lead to a lot more Israeli dead.

That sounds like the liberal argument that putting people in jail will not lower crime. How did not charging people for theft under a thousand dollars or no bail work out? Put enough criminals in jail and it will. Kill enough terrorists and there were be less terrorists. There are always going to be propagandists, we now see how teachers have influenced so many students to be pro-Hamas. You can bet they didn't tell the students that jihadists will throw gays and trans off of a roof. Those who have more historical knowledge of jihadists are not going to be so easily swayed.

Bradskii · Dec 9, 2023

Valletta said:
That sounds like the liberal argument that putting people in jail will not lower crime.

I guess that analogy makes sense to you otherwise you wouldn't have made it. But it would have helped if you'd based it on something that was actually true. We know that prison doesn’t work. So what are the alternatives? | Jarryd Bartle

'However, decades of research have shown that prison is the least effective place to rehabilitate offenders. Studies have indicated that a stint in prison increases the likelihood that inmates will reoffend.'

Just like the common sense position that blowing up a man's wife and kids will make him a lifelong enemy, bent on retribution.

Now, back to the Israel/Hamas conflict.

RDKirk · Dec 9, 2023

Bradskii said:
Not an open war. I don't think the plan was to persuade one of the Arab nations to start the tanks rolling. But yes, more terrorists will be the result. I can't think why else they would have done something so remarkably stupid unless that was the intention.

I gave you the "what else:" To start an open war. A bunch of new terrorists is not going to topple Israel.

Bradskii · Dec 9, 2023

RDKirk said:
I gave you the "what else:" To start an open war. A bunch of new terrorists is not going to topple Israel.

I don't think so either. But I don't think like a terrorist. That said, a single act of terror can kill an awful lot of people.

RDKirk · Dec 9, 2023

Bradskii said:
I don't think so either. But I don't think like a terrorist. That said, a single act of terror can kill an awful lot of people.

Those terrorists have quite a ways to go to catch up to Israel, and they're falling farther behind every day.

Pommer · Dec 9, 2023

Valletta said:
Jihadists will lie. Hamas is responsible for the murder of Israeli children and Palestinian children too. Yes there are doctors and many other Palestinian jihadists who support Hamas. Hamas has lied and butchered babies. The Israelis are the victims, trying to save the hostages. Hamas and their supporters are indeed trying to "mass murder a population without limits." Understand these jihadists want every Jew dead and then every Christian dead. They seek to impose Sharia law on the world. They have no excuse.

Wow, it’s like you don’t even know about the Sunni-Shia’ai divide within Islam!

Bradskii · Dec 9, 2023

RDKirk said:
Those terrorists have quite a ways to go to catch up to Israel, and they're falling farther behind every day.

That's unfortunately true.

Ana the Ist · Dec 9, 2023

expos4ever said:
You are effectively moving the goal posts.

No, you just made a bad analogy. I helped you make it more accurate.

expos4ever said:
My post was in specific response to those who argue that no matter how extreme Israel's response might be, the responsibility for the deaths Gazans lies with Hamas.

People will place responsibility wherever they want.

expos4ever said:
That is a patently silly argument and you're pointing out all these additional factors does not change that in the slightest. Why not?

I get the feeling you're going to answer your question...

expos4ever said:
Because the argument those people were advancing was an argument based on principle, not specific details.

Oh ok....well, I don't think there's a whole lot of principles on either side of the discussion, yours or theirs.

expos4ever said:
When someone claims that Hamas bears all responsibilities for the actions of Israel, no matter how extreme those actions are, that someone is clearly spouting nonsense.

There's people here in the US who say dumb things like "look at what happened back in history....now give me reparations" or "we need to give people jobs to make up for red lining."

But not me...nope.

I'm all about personal responsibility.

Is that what you're telling me? You're also squarely a person who believes in personal responsibility?

expos4ever said:
There is simply no justification for an argument that agent B can bear no responsibility at all for their response to a provocation from agent A, no matter how extreme that response. It is a patently absurd position.

It's been made....it's been made a lot. It's been made a lot on the left.

It's not exclusive...people make that argument all the time.

How about you?

rjs330 · Dec 10, 2023

Philip_B said:
I don't have a lot of problems with what you are saying here, however, I do rely on your fourth word 'IF', and having acknowledged that, then there is the sense of what is reasonable. You can not say Gaza is the target and that as Hamas is hiding there, the IDF has the right to kill everyone there. This really would just be another way of invalidating the rules of engagement. I am not saying it is easy, however, nobody gets a blank cheque.

I don't think so either. I would be against Israel killing everyone.

truthpls · Dec 10, 2023

Valletta said:
There is no question that Hamas has opened fire on fleeing civilians.

Maybe. But who else also did?

truthpls · Dec 10, 2023

RDKirk said:
To say that Israel is bombing "without limits" is hyperbole.

I didn't say that.

RDKirk said:
They certainly are not, or the whole of Gaza would be completely leveled by now.

If Israel tried that the world would probably severely punish Israel. They know their limits

RDKirk said:
And, yes, it would be the state that is doing the bombing who would provide its justification for it.

So Hitler would justify killing minorities by saying they were dangerous enemies? No. The ones doing the atrocity do not get to plant evidence and also be believed. The doctors were not saying Hams was infesting the place before Israel came in, were they?

truthpls · Dec 10, 2023

Valletta said:
Jihadists will lie.

Israel won't?

Valletta said:
Hamas is responsible for the murder of Israeli children and Palestinian children too.

So is Israel

Valletta said:
Yes there are doctors and many other Palestinian jihadists who support Hamas.

I wonder why?

Valletta said:
Hamas has lied and butchered babies.

So did you know who with bombs

Valletta said:
The Israelis are the victims, trying to save the hostages.

Hitler was the victim also? No. The ones killing the civilians are not the heros

Valletta said:
Hamas and their supporters are indeed trying to "mass murder a population without limits."

If Israel did not take their lands would that be the case?

Valletta said:
Understand these jihadists want every Jew dead and then every Christian dead.

They want a lot of things. Maybe they want to win a lottery also?

Valletta said:
They seek to impose Sharia law on the world. They have no excuse.

Christians seek to preach the gospel to every person on earth. Should we be bombed also?

truthpls · Dec 10, 2023

rjs330 said:
Well that's your story anyway.

That is news all over the world that you choose to ignore and deny

Valletta · Dec 10, 2023

truthpls said:
Israel won't?

So is Israel

There is only one group murdering civilians, that is Hamas. Hitler was not a victim, the Jews are the victims in both cases and no amount of propaganda will make it otherwise. Rape, torture, and murder are crimes against God.

rjs330 · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
Try to maintain a connection with reality in the discussion. Hamas has zero chance of annihilating Israel. On their own. They were even losing support amongst the Palestinians.

Not any more.

They only didn't have support sue to lack of effective governance. They always had support for their policies toward Israel. After their attack on Israel the Gazans LOVED IT.

rjs330 · Dec 10, 2023

expos4ever said:
Because the argument those people were advancing was an argument based on principle, not specific details. When someone claims that Hamas bears all responsibilities for the actions of Israel, no matter how extreme those actions are, that someone is clearly spouting nonsense.

I don't think anyone made that claim. So no nonsense has been spouted. You can rest easier now.

Ana the Ist · Dec 10, 2023

Bradskii said:
Not an open war. I don't think the plan was to persuade one of the Arab nations to start the tanks rolling. But yes, more terrorists will be the result. I can't think why else they would have done something so remarkably stupid unless that was the intention.

If that's the intention, Israel should annex Gaza. Remove their main operational position. It's just Israel afterwards.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

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