Israel-Hamas Thread II

essentialsaltes · Nov 21, 2023

The IDF said Tuesday that its forces have completely encircled Jabalya, an area of northern Gaza that is home to the enclave’s largest refugee camp, and are gearing up for further combat in the area.

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Of the 24 hospitals in northern Gaza, 21 are entirely dysfunctional, and the other three are only partially functional, [WHO Emergencies Director] Ryan said. In southern Gaza, four hospitals are nonfunctional with the rest only somewhat functional, he said.

Israel accuses Hamas of using hospitals for military operations and those inside as human shields, but the raid of al-Shifa has presented little evidence to support its claims.

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Lebanese TV channel says two journalists killed in Israeli strike

Lebanon’s state National News Agency said the two were among at least four people killed in Israeli strikes on towns and villages near the border on Tuesday, including an 80-year-old woman.

The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment. It said earlier that its aircraft struck militants in the border area in Lebanon, while Hezbollah said its fighters targeted a military position across the border

At least 50 journalists and media workers have been killed in the Israel-Gaza war since Oct. 7, most of them Palestinians

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An opinion article in which Israeli Intelligence Minister Gila Gamliel called for the United Nations to resettle Gazans outside the Strip “does not represent the official position of the Israeli government,” an Israeli official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss a dispute within the government.

wing2000 · Nov 21, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Of the 24 hospitals in northern Gaza, 21 are entirely dysfunctional, and the other three are only partially functional, [WHO Emergencies Director] Ryan said. In southern Gaza, four hospitals are nonfunctional with the rest only somewhat functional, he said.

I heard Jordan and UAE are sending a field hosptial to Gaza...incredibly, the first such facility to be sent by any country after six weeks of war.

Palestinians Say First Field Hospital Enters Gaza Since War Began

Chesterton · Nov 21, 2023

Robban said:
I missed out on the dates, by a thousand years or so, you said 8 century, I was thinking a little wonky.

I don't know what your post is saying, but I did misspeak. I should have said 7th century, not that it matters.

truthpls · Nov 21, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
No, Hamas pushes Gazans into danger. That's even more despicable.

Your attempt to shift the blame for atrocities of the worst kind doesn't work. It is time to free Gaza and let His people go I would think. No more lies

JosephZ · Nov 21, 2023

Cabinet set to approve Gaza hostage deal slated to see release of 50 Israelis

The Prime Minister’s Office announced on Tuesday afternoon that Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would be convening a series of cabinet meetings in the evening, apparently to approve a deal that would see the release of dozens of hostages held by Hamas.

Various reports of the deal have indicated that somewhere between 50 and 100 Israeli and foreign hostages would be released, in exchange for a five-day break in fighting and the release of somewhere between 150 and 300 Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails. Reports over the past week have said that Israel was demanding the release of all the children held in Gaza and their mothers as a condition.

The source said that all Israeli security agencies — the IDF, Shin Bet and Mossad — are in favor of the emerging deal.

Once the cabinet approves such a deal, it is expected to go into effect only 24 hours later, to allow for appeals to the High Court, with the first wave of releases expected only Thursday.

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2023

truthpls said:
Your attempt to shift the blame for atrocities of the worst kind doesn't work. It is time to free Gaza and let His people go I would think. No more lies

Are you a Muslim? What do you mean, "let His people go"? Who are "His people"? How can you not blame Hamas for the atrocities? You make no sense.

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2023

wing2000 said:
Isreal can defend itself using other methods.

US officials cautioned Isreal at the outset of this conflict not to make the same mistakes the US had in Afghanistan and Iraq. The Isrealies were warned to take the time to plan. It seems Isreal ignored that counsel and launched an attack that relies on maximum use of arial bombing and as a consequence, maximum civilian casualties and total destruction of Gaza. I don't know why the Israeli war council moved as fast as it did but I don't think this approach will serve Israel's long term interest. Hamas launched this attack to focus the world's attention on Gaza. They also knew Isreal would react strongly and likely kill thousands of civilians. IMO, Isreal has played right into the Hamas plan.

It remains to be seen if Israel can in fact detroy Hamas' military capability i.e all of the tunnels etc. And Israel has no long term plan once the fighting has stopped. The Arab countries have already stated they have no interest in governing Gaza now that Israel is totally destroying the country (for that matter, they had on interest before either). No other country will. So now Isreal will be faced with managing 2 milllion people in a destroyed country. And that's just Gaza. Another 5-6 million peole live in the West Bank.

"Other methods". Such as? They pulled out of Gaza, released some of the most evil prisoners as a good will guesture, allowed 18,000 workers into Israel and removed Israeli settlers from Gaza. America did not have 200 plus of its citizens abducted in Afghanistan. Already some murdered captives have been found. Take time? That just allows Hamas to improve its defences further.

Arab countries have no interest in the Palestinian situation, which was of their making anyway. No, Israel will not be managing Gaza. It is the responsibility of the PLA. Turkey has already offered to rebuild Gaza. Maybe that is to divert attention from Turkey's brutality towards the Kurds.

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2023

JosephZ said:
I provided a summary on how Israel can defeat Hamas in this post a few weeks ago. Below are some higlights:

Israel needs to focus exclusively on hunting down all of the terrorists responsible for the attack, including the leadership of Hamas, and hold them accountable.

Israel needs to stop the influx of outside funding from countries like Iran.

Israel has to make supporting and joining Hamas less attractive to Palestinians and potential recruits.

Israel must recognize and respect a Palestinian state and improve the lives of the Palestinian people.

Israel needs to support economic development and offer livelihood opportunities to Palestinians.

Israel must play a direct role in rebuilding Gaza and improving infrastructure.

Defeating Hamas will require a concerted effort by the Israeli government, the UN, NGO's, and the Palestinians themselves.

There will always be a risk of civilian casualties when fighting a terrorist group, as is to be expected. However, Israel's relentless bombardment of Gaza and the staggering death toll as a result has gone far beyond what is reasonable.

There has been plenty to say about other conflicts. Here are a couple of threads where members of this forum have criticized Russia and Syria.

Russian soldiers engage in systematic rape to prevent women from having babies in future

Syria: Broken Nation

Hunting down terrorists - work in progress
Stop funding from outside countries? How? Iran is already under sanctions. It has achieved little
Make Hamas less attractive to Palestinians? You are not dealing with a democracy. Hamas simply kills anyone who gets in their way. Islam 101
Israel recognise a Palestinian state? You are kidding, of course. Most Arab countries refuse to accept that Israel is a state. How can you draw borders when you are not recognised?
Israel left a thriving economy in Gaza. Hamas destroyed it. Israel gave work to 18,000 Gazans. They spied for Hamas and facilitated the 7th October attacks.
What Israel does for Gaza post war will depend entirely on the attitude of Gazans. We will see.
You are dreaming if you expect the UN to help Israel against Hamas. What NGOs do you have in mind? And Palestinians may not like Hamas, but they hate Israel far more. It's bred into them, taught in UN funded schools and promoted by the Imams in mosques.

I'm on this forum quite a bit. Israel has come in for far more approbium than Russia, Syria or Turkey. And with much less justification.

I still see no practical solution to the problem. At least you've put some thought into it. That's more than most critics are prepared to do.

Vanellus · Nov 21, 2023

Some music and images

wing2000 · Nov 21, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Palestinian poet arrested by Israeli forces in Gaza, his brother says
A Palestinian writer and poet who had been contributing to The New Yorker and other publications with reflections on his life inside Gaza during the war has been detained by the Israeli military, according to his brother.

Mosab Abu Toha was taken into custody by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) “when he reached the checkpoint while leaving from the north to the south” of Gaza, his brother Hamza Abu Toha said in a Facebook post Monday.

Mosab Abu Toha, lauded poet published by the New Yorker, arrested in Gaza
A finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award this year, the writer was attempting to evacuate to southern Gaza, colleagues say

PEN America, the literary and human rights advocacy organization, wrote in a statement that it is “concerned by reports that poet Mosab Abu Toha, the founder of Gaza’s only English language library, has been taken into custody by Israel’s Defense Forces in Gaza. We are seeking more details and call for his protection.”

Abu Toha, who is in his early 30s, has published in a number of journals, including Poetry magazine, Arrowsmith and the Nation, which on Thursday published his latest poem, “Gazan Family Letters, 2092.” He also wrote an essay for the New York Times last month. After a fellowship as a visiting poet at Harvard, he completed a graduate degree earlier this year at Syracuse University, where he was also a teaching assistant.

This year, he was named a finalist for the National Book Critics Circle’s poetry award, for his 2022 collection, “Things You May Find Hidden in My Ear: Poems from Gaza.”

Buttu said that Abu Toha had been in touch with the U.S. government in recent weeks to gain approval to evacuate his family from Gaza. The youngest of his three children, 3-year-old Mostafa, was born in the United States and is a U.S. citizen.

[Update, 10 a.m. Tuesday: Mosab Abu Toha, has now been released, according to information received by the New Yorker, citing unnamed Israeli officials, and is expected to return to his family by the end of the day.]

civilwarbuff · Nov 21, 2023

Bradskii said:
Surely you meant Hamas. But then again, there seems to be so much confusion about who is a terrorist, who lives in Gaza, who is Palestinian, the number dead, whether they were guilty or not because of the 'path they chose.' So much confusion, eh?

But I guess we can discount all those who have been killed if it was the path they chose. They don't count. Because they chose that path. Because they chose to live in Gaza. Because it absolves anyone else for the tragedy.

No, I said "It is the path that the Gazans chose." and meant exactly that. We have a saying here: 'Elections have consequences.' The Gazans are finding that out first hand.

civilwarbuff · Nov 21, 2023

Bradskii said:
Too bad? Too bad!?

I can't respond as I would like to comments like that.

Yes too bad. But that's what happens when your parents make really terrible, stupid decisions. The kids suffer.

Canuckster · Nov 21, 2023

Aussie Pete said:
Facts are facts. All you have is assertions and conspiracy theory. You seem to forget that it was Yom Kippur and most of the army was on leave at the time. Personally, I think that was a terrible decision. However, that does not mean that there was a deliberate plot to allow Hamas to attack. Pearl Harbor was attacked on a Sunday for the same reason. The Japanese knew that the base would be more lightly defended. Hamas had many spies in Israel, 18,000 workers who gave information on the softest targets. It was a good plan and well executed.

Do you really think people on this forum are that foolish? Anyone can see that there's no way any country on earth would allow 1000’s of men driving pick up trucks and flying hand gliders to cross their border and allow them to kill and rape their citizens for 7 HOURS and then take hostages and escape back across the border completely unscathed. Anyone who thinks it was because it was during holidays is either mentally handicapped or in on the cover up.

civilwarbuff · Nov 21, 2023

Vanellus said:
It's quoted in #738 but you wrote "I answered it in #738" This means you think you wrote #738 but you did not write #738. I think you need to revise your basic English comprehension.

I think I will put you in time out for a while. Maybe someone else here can educate you; I am tired of wasting my time.

Vanellus · Nov 21, 2023

civilwarbuff said:
I think I will put you in time out for a while. Maybe someone else here can educate you; I am tired of wasting my time.

The music in #874 may help your tiredness.

rjs330 · Nov 21, 2023

Bradskii said:
There are rules. There are regulations. There are laws. It's obvious that you think that applying any of these means that you can ignore any moral considerations.

Do you really want to hold to that position? Are you actually making that argument? Seriously?

When it comes to war, yes. And probably a host of other things as well. But I will agree that it's not absolute.

But when it comes to a just war, then then following the laws and rules of war are good. Otherwise the rules are meaningless.

rjs330 · Nov 21, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Britain partitioned Land for Israel and Land for the 'Palestinians' back in 48 - there was no provocation - both peoples had the same opportunity.

Not to mention the Palastinians chose not to. They could have a thriving country right now if they had. I stead they chose a path of self destruction. Israel chose the path of construction and turned their opportunity into a growing and thriving country.

rjs330 · Nov 21, 2023

Bradskii said:
It's not that I should need one. It's the very fact that there is more than one option! And you don't get to wait for me to suggest any number of possible solutions just so that you can enjoy dismantling each and any one for whavever specious reasons you'd like to employ.

To ask 'What are the other options' is almost to admit that you can't conceive of any that doesn't result in a massive numbers of civilian deaths. You could suggest any other but you prefer the current one. Which has resulted in the deaths of some 4,000 children. In what kind of world do you live in where that is the best option available? Do you want to admit that it's not the best? Or that it is?

If it is then say It plainly. That the deaths don't matter, only the end result. If it's an option that you don't want, and surely no sane person wants these deaths, then supply an alternative. Or at leasr call a halt until you can think of one.

So all that to say that you just want to whine and complain but not offer any real solutions.

rjs330 · Nov 21, 2023

Tinker Grey said:
Calling out Israel's crimes is not equating them to Hamas; it's holding our ostensible allies to a higher standard.

What crimes? Israel has committed no crimes here.

Now I'm not saying that no individual.Isreali soldier has ever killed a civilian when he/she should not have. In a war that IS going to happen. It must be understood. The war itself is just even though individuals in the war may do unjust things.

This is why war is such a terrible thing. It should never be undertaken lightly. I am going to sleep in generalities here so don't take it literal concerning Palestine and Israel. But when one country attacks another then they incur the consequences of that action and so does their people. It doesn't matter if it's a democratic society or a dictatorship or a communist society. The ruling class bears full responsibility for what happens once they launch the attack. They bear full responsibility for what happens to their country and their people.

And I support the other country in a just war. As long as they as a whole are trying to prosecuted the war according to commonly held standards and international law. And if an individual soldier or soldiers screw up during the fog of war then that's up to the country to hold the soldier accountable.

rjs330 · Nov 21, 2023

Tinker Grey said:
Calling out Israel's crimes is not equating them to Hamas; it's holding our ostensible allies to a higher standard.

Nope you and others are holding them to an impossible standard. There's a difference. Have you noticed in this entire thread the majority of those on the left are heavily criticizing Israel for their actions and saying very little to nothing about Hamas' actions? If they do it's a one or two sentences before going on with paragraph after paragraph about Israel.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

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Palestinian poet arrested by Israeli forces in Gaza, his brother says​

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A finalist for the National Book Critics Circle Award this year, the writer was attempting to evacuate to southern Gaza, colleagues say​

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