Israel-Hamas Thread II

Valletta · Nov 11, 2023

Israel’s military confirmed clashes outside the hospital, but Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari denied Shifa was under siege. He said troops will provide assistance Sunday in moving babies treated there and said “we are speaking directly and regularly” with hospital staff.

Amos Yadlin, a former head of Israeli military intelligence, told broadcaster Channel 12 that as Israel aims to crush Hamas, taking control of the hospitals would be key but require “a lot of tactical creativity,” without hurting patients, other civilians and Israeli hostages.

Netanyahu rejects growing calls for a cease-fire as Israel battles Hamas outside main Gaza hospital

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushed back Saturday against growing international calls for a cease-fire, saying Israel’s battle to crush Gaza’s ruling Hamas mil…

www.abc27.com

All should see the difference between Hamas and Israel.

Valletta · Nov 11, 2023

Hamas fires rockets deep into Israel, setting off sirens in Tel Aviv

Sirens were sounded in Tel Aviv and surrounding areas on Friday as Hamas said it fired rockets deep into Israel in what the Palestinian militant group described as a response to mounting civilian deaths in the Gaza war.

www.reuters.com

The world needs to get together to demand Hamas stop their terrorism, release the hostages, and throw down their arms.

Valletta · Nov 11, 2023

Valletta said:
Hamas fires rockets deep into Israel, setting off sirens in Tel Aviv

Sirens were sounded in Tel Aviv and surrounding areas on Friday as Hamas said it fired rockets deep into Israel in what the Palestinian militant group described as a response to mounting civilian deaths in the Gaza war.

www.reuters.com

The world needs to get together to demand Hamas stop their terrorism, release the hostages, and throw down their arms.

civilwarbuff · Nov 11, 2023

JosephZ said:
This can be done without bombing entire neighborhoods and killing thousands of innocent civilians.

Really?.....How?

civilwarbuff · Nov 11, 2023

JosephZ said:
I provided a strategy to defeat Hamas in this post in another thread.

Uh-huh. Seems I remember the US trying to do that with Al-Qaeda. How'd that work out for us?

JosephZ · Nov 11, 2023

civilwarbuff said:
Uh-huh. Seems I remember the US trying to do that with Al-Qaeda. How'd that work out for us?

The US didn't use that strategy. The US did what Israel is doing now. The US bombed, invaded, and occupied Afghanistan and later did the same in Iraq. The results have been disastrous. Not only did the US not defeat al Qaeda, it lead to the creation of the Islamic State and historic levels of terrorism. Just look how much terrorism increased in Afghanistan and Iraq after the US attempted to destroy al Qaeda with military force.

Not only did acts of terrorism increase in that region, but there was also an increase in attacks in the west. Unfortunately, we are likely going to see a similar surge in terrorism in the coming months and years as a result of Israel's destruction of Gaza in its attempt to go after Hamas.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

essentialsaltes said:
Certainly there is a mention of this claim of the IDF, which the US considers "credible".

Hmm... I re-read what you posted and didn't see it. Did I miss it?

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

Nithavela said:
The longer this conflict is going on, the more videos I see of people of Gaza denouncing Hamas. Maybe because Hamas is using them as human shields at gunpoint.

I say, keep up the pressure. If Hamas builds a base under a hospital, then some of the civilians in that hospital will just have to die, and the rest better place the blame on Hamas, or they are just as guilty.

You are partially correct. Have to die? What does that mean exactly. That Israelis march into the hospital and pick out some dude in a wheel chair and off him cause he has to die?

It may be that some of them will die in a strike against Hamas. Do they HAVE TO? Well the answer is no they don't. No one in the hospital has to die. All Hamas has to do is come out and surrender. Then no one dies. It's that simple.

So yes the blame is on Hamas. It's that easy.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

wing2000 said:
From the linked WaPo article:

“The Hamas terrorist organization has continued operating below Gaza’s Shifa Hospital, using the thousands of patients, doctors and staff in the building to shield its underground headquarters,” the IDF said in a statement.

It included what it said was an “intelligence-based video” with illustrated 3D models of the area below ground. It also released a recording of what it said were two unidentified Palestinians speaking on the phone, in which one tells the other that Hamas is headquartered at the hospital. It was not possible to verify the authenticity of the recording.
A senior Israeli security official, speaking on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters, said Israel shared its intelligence on al-Shifa Hospital with other governments, including the United States and the European Union. “We will not let it be a sanctuary,” the official said of the hospital.

Thanks for posting that. I couldn't see the article as it's behind a pay wall. I had to depend on what you wrote and quoted.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

wing2000 said:
I see, you know better than everyone.

Gee I'm pretty smart huh. I am a thinker.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

Vanellus said:
Israel was claiming that the Palestinians were using this video to portray actual injuries in Gaza. But it was Israel who lifted the video not Palestinians in Gaza. Try reading the twitter thread which explains this. e.g.

"I have only seen Israeli sources share these images, and only in the context of accusing Palestinians of faking injuries and deaths. Will you please share a source for this or provide examples?"

As someone pointed out there's plenty of genuine footage of dead Palestinian children, there is no need to use fake examples.

Of course if you have a genuine example (not IDF/Israeli of course) of Hamas/Palestinians using this footage to show fake injuries you are free to provide a link to it.

What did they lift it from. Some Palestinians random camera?

Yes I know there are picture of real dead Palestinians just like there are of real dead Israeli's. However this incident shows that the Palestinians are not above faking stuff. So how many of those so called dead and wounded Palestinians are fake?

I don't know and as long as its Hamas providing the information they can't be trusted.

Valletta · Nov 11, 2023

After Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and Germany declared war on the United States, there was also a huge spike in the number of attacks by Japan and Germany. That's what happens when people fight back. Like Germany and Japan, Hamas and their allies continue acts of aggression, not just the continuing firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel or their failure to release hostages, but also because of Hamas attacks on Gaza, killing people who try and flee to safety or refusing to allow Israelis to evacuate those sick from hospitals. As more and more Middle East terrorists are killed, the acts of terrorism in the Middle East can be expected to be reduced. Appeasement does not work. When strength is used terrorism can be reduced, as demonstrated under the Trump administration.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

JosephZ said:
The US didn't use that strategy. The US did what Israel is doing now. The US bombed, invaded, and occupied Afghanistan and later did the same in Iraq. The results have been disastrous. Not only did the US not defeat al Qaeda, it lead to the creation of the Islamic State and historic levels of terrorism. Just look how much terrorism increased in Afghanistan and Iraq after the US attempted to destroy al Qaeda with military force.

View attachment 339114

Not only did acts of terrorism increase in that region, but there was also an increase in attacks in the west. Unfortunately, we are likely going to see a similar surge in terrorism in the coming months and years as a result of Israel's destruction of Gaza in its attempt to go after Hamas.

Well duh the acts of terrorism in the region increased. It's because there was a WAR ON against terrorists. And the war in Afghanistan wasn't against Al Qaeda but against the Taliban. And Iraq wasn't just against Al Qaeda either but against Hussein.

Al Qaeda didn't run those countries. Al Qaeda isn't much of a threat anymore. The US still works on taking out the leadership.

9/11 attacks: What's happened to al-Qaeda?

The US took out al-Zawahiri.

So military action is very viable and is very effective when terrorist groups don't abandon their activities in their own.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

Vanellus said:
Jewish casualties were overestimated and Palestinian casualties are likely to be underestimated

Israel-Hamas War: Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200

Israel-Hamas War: Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

Now whether it was 1400 or 1200 does not lessen the terrible nature of the Hamas atrocity on October 7. What I'm concerned about is the media coverage of this and how it may affect the views of people on this forum. I can't remember a single instance in UK main stream media that questioned the accuracy of the 1400 figure, or that such a question was put to an Israeli spokesperson. The figure given out by the Israeli authorities was accepted without question.

Yet Palestinian spokespeople are often asked about the accuracy of the Gaza casualty figures and it is often stated that the Gaza health ministry is "controlled by Hamas" without explaining what that means - does it mean that someone from Hamas is standing over them with a gun? Yet their figures are known to be accurate in previous outbreaks of violence

Can we trust casualty figures from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry?

The reason for this double standard about the accuracy of casualty figures is a clear case of othering. Palestinians are assumed to be lying because they are Palestinians and Israelis are assumed to be telling the truth because they are Israelis. I do not think the Bible supports this view.

P.S. Have you ever seen a headline like "can we trust casualty figures issued by the Israeli authorities?"

Maybe that's because Hamas are evil TERRORISTS AND LIARS. Could that possibly be it? We have all kinds of evidence that they lie through their teeth. They also are terrorists which means everything they say and do needs to be seen through that lense.

So yes we should be seeing headlines with those words.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

Valletta said:
Israel’s military confirmed clashes outside the hospital, but Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari denied Shifa was under siege. He said troops will provide assistance Sunday in moving babies treated there and said “we are speaking directly and regularly” with hospital staff.

Amos Yadlin, a former head of Israeli military intelligence, told broadcaster Channel 12 that as Israel aims to crush Hamas, taking control of the hospitals would be key but require “a lot of tactical creativity,” without hurting patients, other civilians and Israeli hostages.

Netanyahu rejects growing calls for a cease-fire as Israel battles Hamas outside main Gaza hospital

DEIR AL-BALAH, Gaza Strip (AP) — Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu pushed back Saturday against growing international calls for a cease-fire, saying Israel’s battle to crush Gaza’s ruling Hamas mil…

www.abc27.com

All should see the difference between Hamas and Israel.

Well all should.... But all won't.

rjs330 · Nov 11, 2023

Valletta said:
The world needs to get together to demand Hamas stop their terrorism, release the hostages, and throw down their arms.

Yes the world should, but has anyone in the UN demanded this? Haven't seen it. Maybe I missed it....checks the Google.... Nope nothing. I saw calls for a cease fire, which helps Hamas, but no demand for surrender and release of hostages.

I think I only say one of our l first friends on this site say anything about that. Most just spent time noting how Israel was killing civilians making it seem like Israel were the bad guys here.

JosephZ · Nov 11, 2023

rjs330 said:
Well duh the acts of terrorism in the region increased. It's because there was a WAR ON against terrorists.

Acts of terrorism increased because the region was destabilized and became a breeding ground for terrorist recruitment. The war against terrorists ended up creating more terrorists. After a twenty-year US occupation of Afghanistan, the Taliban has been growing in numbers and strength in recent years and has been responsible for a surge in terrorism in Pakistan. Prior to the US invasion of Iraq, there was no ISIS. But after the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and the collapse of the Iraqi government, ISIS and several other new terror groups emerged. Unfortunately, the end result of Israel's war against Hamas will be no different.

rjs330 said:
And the war in Afghanistan wasn't against Al Qaeda but against the Taliban.

The US invaded Afghanistan to destroy Al-Qaeda. The Taliban refused to hand over Osama bin Laden, so they also became a target.

Afghanistan, a known training ground and safe haven for the terrorist group [al-Qaeda] led by Osama bin Laden, became the initial focus of military efforts to strike back. That distant, land-locked, mountainous country presented great challenges to planners and operators. The U.S. Army, Air Force, Marine Corps, and Navy overcame those obstacles to project power halfway across the globe and conduct an offensive, in concert with Afghan allies, which drove al-Qaeda into retreat and quickly toppled the Taliban regime that supported the terrorists.

War with al-Qaeda meant war with its host the Taliban who had gained control of most of Afghanistan in the 1990s. In October 2001, U.S. military forces began a campaign against both groups. With the help of various anti-Taliban militias, American troops fought to remove the Taliban from power, destroy al-Qaeda, find bin Laden, and preclude terrorists from using Afghanistan as a refuge. Afghanistan, therefore, would be the first conflict in the decades-long Global War on Terrorism.

From Afghanistan, bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network planned and set in motion the 11 September 2001 terrorist attacks on New York City and the Pentagon. He wanted to draw the United States into a protracted and unwinnable war in Afghanistan, much as the Soviets had been... the Taliban likely did not know of these plans.

Within hours after the World Trade Center’s twin towers fell in New York City, the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reported that al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden had planned and orchestrated the attacks from their sanctuary in Afghanistan. Bush and his cabinet then learned that the Taliban was hosting and protecting bin Laden. Going to war with al-Qaeda would require fighting the Taliban.

https://history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-83/cmhPub_70-83-1.pdf

Hamas used the same strategy as Bin Laden. They knew going into the terror attack on October 7th that Israel would respond with overwhelming force in Gaza and get caught up in a long, unwinnable war. It was a trap, and Israel fell right into it.

rjs330 said:
And Iraq wasn't just against Al Qaeda either but against Hussein.

I didn't say the war in Iraq was against al Qaeda, I said the US did the same in Iraq; bombed, invaded, and occupied the country.

rjs330 said:
Al Qaeda isn't much of a threat anymore.

From northwest Africa to southeast Asia, al-Qa`ida has maintained a global movement of some two dozen local networks. Among the movement’s estimated 20,000 or so men-at-arms are some 3,500-5,000 hardcore loyalists in Syria belonging to al-Qa`ida’s main stalking horse in that country, Hurras al-Din. Longstanding al-Qa`ida loyalists like al-Shabaab in Somalia and al-Qa`ida in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP) in Yemen each command approximately 7,000 men, with several hundred associated with al-Qa`ida in the Islamic Maghreb (AQIM). There are estimated to be at least 400-600 al-Qa`ida fighters in Afghanistan.

Evidence that al-Qa`ida and its franchises have not abandoned prospects of reinvigorating their campaign of international terrorism with some new, dramatic, and spectacular attack may be deduced from the reports that twice this past year, al-Shabaab operatives have been arrested while taking flying lessons: one in 2019 in the Philippines and the other earlier this year in an undisclosed African country. The former had researched skyscrapers in the United States and aviation security as well as taking flying lessons in a plot that is believed to have commenced in 2016.

The December 2019 shooting at Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida was not only the first deadly terrorist attack on U.S. soil coordinated by a foreign terrorist organization since 9/11, it was perpetrated by an individual embedded within the Saudi Air Force, with whom AQAP had been in contact while he was on U.S. territory, up to and including the night before the attack.

Al-Qa`ida and its affiliates have not laid down their arms, nor do they have any intent to spare the United States in their ongoing jihad. Accordingly, they likely see themselves poised to benefit from any diminishment or indeed the complete withdrawal of U.S. military forces from Afghanistan, Africa, and elsewhere.

Terrorism and Counterterrorism Challenges for the Biden Administration - Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

Abstract: As the Biden administration starts work in January, it will face a new raft of national security challenges. Counterterrorism, as with the previous three administrations, will once again be a central concern. The administration will be forced to grapple with old threats, including from...

ctc.westpoint.edu

rjs330 said:
So military action is very viable and is very effective when terrorist groups don't abandon their activities in their own.

Al Qaeda is currently expanding its global presence, the Islamic State continues to be the deadliest terror group in the world, and the Taliban is probably stronger today than it was prior to the U.S. invasion in 2001. Military action clearly isn't a viable solution when it comes to eliminating terrorist groups.

Nithavela · Nov 11, 2023

rjs330 said:
You are partially correct. Have to die? What does that mean exactly. That Israelis march into the hospital and pick out some dude in a wheel chair and off him cause he has to die?

It may be that some of them will die in a strike against Hamas. Do they HAVE TO? Well the answer is no they don't. No one in the hospital has to die. All Hamas has to do is come out and surrender. Then no one dies. It's that simple.

So yes the blame is on Hamas. It's that easy.

"Have to die" means that Hamas is using the civilians as human shields, and in some cases the IDF will have to use force that endangers and kills those civilians in its military actions. That's what I meant. The hint is in the first half of the post you quoted.

But good job putting words into my mouth and pretending I was anti-israel by focusing on three words of my post. Really appreciate that.

Nithavela · Nov 11, 2023

Valletta said:
After Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and Germany declared war on the United States, there was also a huge spike in the number of attacks by Japan and Germany. That's what happens when people fight back. Like Germany and Japan, Hamas and their allies continue acts of aggression, not just the continuing firing of rockets by Hamas into Israel or their failure to release hostages, but also because of Hamas attacks on Gaza, killing people who try and flee to safety or refusing to allow Israelis to evacuate those sick from hospitals. As more and more Middle East terrorists are killed, the acts of terrorism in the Middle East can be expected to be reduced. Appeasement does not work. When strength is used terrorism can be reduced, as demonstrated under the Trump administration.

How did the Trump administration use "strength" to reduce terrorism? Especially compared to other administrations?

Valletta · Nov 11, 2023

Nithavela said:
How did the Trump administration use "strength" to reduce terrorism? Especially compared to other administrations?

For example, Trump told the Taliban leader that if they tried seizing land or killed one American that his village would be destroyed and they would be hit with a force like no other country had ever been hit with before. If Iranian backed forces shoot rockets and injure American soldiers, you have to have a great response. That, unfortunately, means killing some enemy soldiers. Joe ordered some warehouses be destroyed, thus more and more terrorist attacks.

Israel-Hamas Thread II

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Israel-Hamas War: Israel Lowers Oct. 7 Death Toll Estimate to 1,200​

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official​

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you're in charge you can do it just get louis

you're in charge you can do it just get louis

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