• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
  • We hope the site problems here are now solved, however, if you still have any issues, please start a ticket in Contact Us

Israel decreasing

BobY777

Member
Feb 24, 2015
16
4
✟23,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
These questions have to do with the time duration of Israel’s diminishing because the Jews rejected the good news of the Kingdom of God. During this diminishing Paul was starting to preach The Gospel of Grace of God. The diminishing of Israel started in Acts 7 (starting with the stoning of Stephen) and the diminishing was completed in Acts 28.


It took 30 years to go fully from the Jews Law (Kingdom of God) period fully to the dispensation of Grace period.


During that diminishing time period:

Q 1 - Am I correct in thinking that some or most of the original apostles (not Paul) were still preaching the Good News of the Kingdom of God to the Jews?


During this diminishing time period, for each town that Paul went into:

Q 2 - Am I correct in thinking that Paul preached to Jews first in each town until they would get enraged with his teachings), and then he would switch and preach to the gentiles next in that same town? See Acts 13:46.


During this diminishing time period:

Q 3 - Did Paul preach The Good News of the Kingdom of God to the Jews?


During this diminishing time period:

Q 4 - Did Paul preach The Good News of the Grace of God to the gentiles?

Q 5 - If so, didn’t Paul preach two valid gospels during this diminishing time period…one to the Jews and one to the gentiles?

Thank you,
Bob
 

redleghunter

Thank You Jesus!
Site Supporter
Mar 18, 2014
38,117
34,056
Texas
✟221,736.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gal 2:9 sure seems to read that way.
Then after about 30 years it was all the gospel of Grace.
30 years from when or what event? The Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Council of Jerusalem is generally dated to 48 AD, roughly 15 to 25 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. Galatians is believed by most scholars to be written 49-50 AD.

Yet at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 Peter states that both Jews and Gentiles are saved by Grace.

Acts 15: NASB

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


Notice Peter is referring to a much earlier time when he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles "in the early days", that they (the Gentiles) also received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10) making no distinction "cleansing their hearts by faith." Then goes on to say both Jew and Gentile "are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus."

Here is another example of Peter convincing the Jews that the Gentiles were saved just as they were:

Acts 11: NASB

1Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air.

7“I also heard a voice saying to me, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8“But I said, ‘By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9“But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ 10“This happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11“And behold, at that moment three men appeared at the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12“The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. 13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;

14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

There is only One Gospel. It is Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will Come Again. This is Grace. This is what Peter and the other apostles preached since Pentecost.

I think many create an unnecessary dichotomy of Gospel of the Kingdom vs. Gospel of Grace. The Gospel of the Kingdom Jesus preached before His death, Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven was one of Perfection (Matthew 5:48) “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

In Matthew 5 Jesus preached the perfection of the Law. One must be dragged up Mount Sinai (Law) and exposed to their sin and condemnation before they can know the Salvation of Mount Zion (Grace).

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not in opposition to the Gospel of Grace. They compliment each other.


Now on Paul preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom? We see that happening even in the last chapter of Acts of the Apostles:

Acts 28: NASB

23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. 24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. 25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;


27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’


28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.” 29[When he had spoken these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.]

30And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Notice he preached the Kingdom and tried persuading them concerning Jesus. There you have the complimentary message, not in opposition.
 
Upvote 0

BobY777

Member
Feb 24, 2015
16
4
✟23,292.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I attached a picture of a timeline that has helped me a lot.
 

Attachments

  • timeline.png
    timeline.png
    458 KB · Views: 11
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,379
1,422
sg
✟292,598.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
30 years from when or what event? The Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus Christ?

The Council of Jerusalem is generally dated to 48 AD, roughly 15 to 25 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. Galatians is believed by most scholars to be written 49-50 AD.

Yet at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 Peter states that both Jews and Gentiles are saved by Grace.

Acts 15: NASB

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”

6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


Notice Peter is referring to a much earlier time when he preached the Gospel to the Gentiles "in the early days", that they (the Gentiles) also received the Holy Spirit (Acts 10) making no distinction "cleansing their hearts by faith." Then goes on to say both Jew and Gentile "are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus."

Here is another example of Peter convincing the Jews that the Gentiles were saved just as they were:

Acts 11: NASB

1Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.” 4But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air.

7“I also heard a voice saying to me, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8“But I said, ‘By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’ 9“But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ 10“This happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11“And behold, at that moment three men appeared at the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12“The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. 13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here;

14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’ 15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”

There is only One Gospel. It is Christ has died, Christ is Risen, Christ will Come Again. This is Grace. This is what Peter and the other apostles preached since Pentecost.

I think many create an unnecessary dichotomy of Gospel of the Kingdom vs. Gospel of Grace. The Gospel of the Kingdom Jesus preached before His death, Resurrection and Ascension into Heaven was one of Perfection (Matthew 5:48) “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

In Matthew 5 Jesus preached the perfection of the Law. One must be dragged up Mount Sinai (Law) and exposed to their sin and condemnation before they can know the Salvation of Mount Zion (Grace).

The Gospel of the Kingdom is not in opposition to the Gospel of Grace. They compliment each other.


Now on Paul preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom? We see that happening even in the last chapter of Acts of the Apostles:

Acts 28: NASB

23When they had set a day for Paul, they came to him at his lodging in large numbers; and he was explaining to them by solemnly testifying about the kingdom of God and trying to persuade them concerning Jesus, from both the Law of Moses and from the Prophets, from morning until evening. 24Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe. 25And when they did not agree with one another, they began leaving after Paul had spoken one parting word, “The Holy Spirit rightly spoke through Isaiah the prophet to your fathers,

26saying,
‘GO TO THIS PEOPLE AND SAY,
“YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
AND YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;


27FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
AND WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES;
OTHERWISE THEY MIGHT SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
AND HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.”’


28“Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen.” 29[When he had spoken these words, the Jews departed, having a great dispute among themselves.]

30And he stayed two full years in his own rented quarters and was welcoming all who came to him, 31preaching the kingdom of God and teaching concerning the Lord Jesus Christ with all openness, unhindered.

Notice he preached the Kingdom and tried persuading them concerning Jesus. There you have the complimentary message, not in opposition.

Actually, when you literally read how Acts 15 went down, as recorded by Luke. Peter actually stated this:

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

A literal reading will tell you that Peter is actually saying that he wants the Jews (we), from then on, to be saved, as a Gentile (they).

This is very significant because under the Law of Moses, Gentiles could be saved, but only as a Jew. Exodus 12:48 sums that up well.

And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

So when Peter announced that, it was of huge significance to all the Jews who heard him during the Council.

But alas, James intervened before it could take root, and he did his final announcement that

19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

James, in my reading, deftly changed Peter's proclamation about how Jews and Gentiles are now to turn to God, into just the Gentiles.

And Acts 21 confirmed it, especially in v20

...Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law

In my reading, James kept the Jewish believers bounded to the Law of Moses. And as I have stated in my first reply to this thread, what they bound on earth, was also confirmed by heaven.

So much for the widely taught doctrine that Peter was the head of the church, and James merely supported Peter's decision.

It is amazing how a literal reading of Acts 15, without the baggage of church doctrine, reveals
 
  • Like
Reactions: yellowMan
Upvote 0