Isn't war evil?

I agree with PCM. The Bible is full of writings where God sent is people to fight wars. The end times war has Jesus coming back with thousands of His saints to slay the wicked.

If it works for Jesus it works for me. He must have a good reason for advocating it and I'm with Him.

Our armed forces is ALL volunteer. All soldiers knew there could be war when they volunteered and some volunteered expressly to go to this war. In the US, there is always a surge in enlistments when a war is being fought.

A-

inquisitor_11 said:

That's a bit rich coming from an american. I would like to think that a country as wealthy and as economically powerful as the USA would be able to provide some sort of decent social welfare system to "look out for individuals that can't protect themselves". Instead you keep chasing phantom threats that are often atributable to earlier US geopolitics. Looks like paranoid delusions have overcome the real problems once again...

how long to sing this song?

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I agree with everything but your sarcasm. Overall, excellent post.

And razorback, we are fighting demons, not humans, even if they are demon influenced, then it means we should try and witness to them still.
THe media twists things to huge proportions,
There are so many people for fighting iraq...
the real reason is , their blind foolish patriotism if you ask me.
no offense people, but some of you need to start thinking for yourself, not in a political aspect only, but in a christian factor at least.

Katydid said:

Please understand that we as people, do not always agree with our government, that is the joy of the country we live in.

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Fair enough, however I do understand quite well that your countries policy doesn't reflect everyones views, however in this situation, it seems to reflect the views of most of the american christians in this forum.

Katydid said:

We can disagree and scream it right in front of the white house if we want to.

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Of course you can, the only problems are CS gas, Police batons and "less-lethal" munitions. You may have the right to free speech, but the government has the right to declare a demonstration as illegal or, at a time such as this, unpatriotic/ unamerican.

My Father was recently in the US for work, he actually flew over in the day war broke out in Afghanistan. He was in the San Fransisco/ LA area during the protests there, and said that he never seen a police force so militant- this from a man who has been to places like France during the algerian terrorism days and Vietnam during the 80's.

Land of the free?

Katydid said:

So, now, until you live in our country and also see how many masses of people abuse the welfare system we have, making it impossible for us to provide for the ones who truly need it, please do not judge. Remember that all of us, countries and individuals are works in progress.

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That's rubbish, abuse of the welfare system is a BS excuse used by liberal conservatives (as in liberal economics) to justify not doing anything. The abuses will never outweigh the need. Plenty of other countries have far better welfare systems, and do so with smaller relative GDP per capita's.

Particularly for us with judeo-christian ethics, the misuse of any benevolent cause by a few should never justify us failing to provide for the needy.

inquisitor_11 said:

Fair enough, however I do understand quite well that your countries policy doesn't reflect everyones views, however in this situation, it seems to reflect the views of most of the american christians in this forum.



Of course you can, the only problems are CS gas, Police batons and "less-lethal" munitions. You may have the right to free speech, but the government has the right to declare a demonstration as illegal or, at a time such as this, unpatriotic/ unamerican.

My Father was recently in the US for work, he actually flew over in the day war broke out in Afghanistan. He was in the San Fransisco/ LA area during the protests there, and said that he never seen a police force so militant- this from a man who has been to places like France during the algerian terrorism days and Vietnam during the 80's.

Land of the free?



That's rubbish, abuse of the welfare system is a BS excuse used by liberal conservatives (as in liberal economics) to justify not doing anything. The abuses will never outweigh the need. Plenty of other countries have far better welfare systems, and do so with smaller relative GDP per capita's.

Particularly for us with judeo-christian ethics, the misuse of any benevolent cause by a few should never justify us failing to provide for the needy.

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You have managed to make me feel guilty for my dislike of Christians.

War is not evil. War is not the ideal condition but it is not evil. There is a time and a season to everything, including war.

Yes.

A time and a season for everything doesn't make it *not* evil. It does mean that it is an unfortuate part of this life.

Us Christians gotta be careful before we abandon Godly wisdom ( such as "Love your Enemies") and start following worldly wisdom ("just war" theories).

Yep - Just war makes perfect sense to the world, and the non-Christian will agree with you, but watch it!

Because

1cor3:18Do not deceive yourselves. If any one of you thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a "fool" so that he may become wise. 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness"[1] ; 20and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."[2]

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Exactly, for war, ALl i see is justification justifaction..
they don't seem to use hard scripture to support.
like when God sent people for wars, it was to establish things...and it was done in the OT!
did God ever tell anyone to kill anyone in the NT?!

If noone fought for what they believed in, what would become of it?

HighlyEvolved said:

george bush - the pre-emptive, reactionary 'war president' - death first, non-violent solutions later

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First of all, the war was not "pre-emptive", but was a resumption of the first round of the war after the cease fire agreement was voided by Saddam.

Second, non-violent solutions were tried for thirteen years. Every one of them failed and Saddam only thumbed his nose at them.

What would you suggest President Bush have done that wasn't tried in the previous thirteen years?

12volt_man said:

First of all, the war was not "pre-emptive", but was a resumption of the first round of the war after the cease fire agreement was voided by Saddam.

Second, non-violent solutions were tried for thirteen years. Every one of them failed and Saddam only thumbed his nose at them.

What would you suggest President Bush have done that wasn't tried in the previous thirteen years?

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Let me gently ask what business is that of yours?

As a Christian, you are commanded to love your enemies and follow Christ, not to solve the problems of the world.

Job 42

1 Then Job replied to the LORD :

2 "I know that you can do all things;
no plan of yours can be thwarted.
3 You asked, 'Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?'
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4 "You said, 'Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.'
5 My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6 Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes."

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So whose buisness is it to protect the people who have not had the freedom to hear the Gospel? Are they not worth saving? And at this time, to save them spiritually, we must save them physically. Who takes responsibility for that? Will you? Will you put your life on the line to protect those who cannot protect themselves? Are you going to go there and tell them that even though you don't know them, you love them enough to put your life on the line? Apparently that is none of your concern, right?

well, we could all sit around and die, if that's how you wanna look at things. we don't go to war just to kill people. we go to war to protect our citizens, our government, and the world around us. war itself isn't evil. we use the term "war" to describe the process by which evil is removed.

Katydid said:

So whose buisness is it to protect the people who have not had the freedom to hear the Gospel? Are they not worth saving? And at this time, to save them spiritually, we must save them physically. Who takes responsibility for that? Will you? Will you put your life on the line to protect those who cannot protect themselves? Are you going to go there and tell them that even though you don't know them, you love them enough to put your life on the line? Apparently that is none of your concern, right?

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Calm down.

It is very much my concern. I just go about it a different way.

Here are some questions for you:

How come Christ showed no interest in overthrowing the brutal Roman occupation of the Jews when He knew that they would destroy Jerusalem a few decades hence?

Nor that there is ever any exhortation to use armed resistance to persecuters in the New Testament?

As I said... one must be careful abandoning clear biblical principles to embracing abstract conglomerates such as 'just war' - especially if they violate those principles that ARE clear.

So how do you reconcile these?

Can you make sense of the evils of the world?

to save them spiritually, we must save them physically.

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This is manifestly incorrect. Didn't you realise that Christianity thrives under persecution? I'm not saying persecution is good, but it has never eliminated Christianity anywhere, to my knowledge.

There are plenty of Iraqi Christians that have spent their entire lives in Iraq - we should be praying for them and supporting them in other ways, confident that the LORD controls their circumstances completely.

gnine said:

Let me gently ask what business is that of yours?

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It's my business first of all because I'm an American.

It's my business because I don't think it's right to sit back and watch someone post falsehoods concerning the nature of the war.

Third, it's my business because, as a Christian, I want to see all people out from under the thumb of tyrants.

As a Christian, you are commanded to love your enemies and follow Christ, not to solve the problems of the world.

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Notice that Jesus was speaking to His disciples concerning their reaction in light of persecution for the sake of the Gospel, not supporting their nation in time of national emergency.

Calm down please. Just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean you have to get all angry. Don't you believe in free speech?

If I think your going to get too angry, I'll just cease responding to you, afterall, we are supposed to avoid stirring up strife.

Titus 3:10
Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.

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It's my business first of all because I'm an American.

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First of all? Does that mean your an American first, and a Christian second? Even if being an American contradicts what it means to be a Christian? I prefer to belong to a holy nation rather than defining what I believe by who I pay my taxes to.

1 Peter 2:9
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.

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It's my business because I don't think it's right to sit back and watch someone post falsehoods concerning the nature of the war.

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Lets reserve judgement on that one - eh? Here is your opportunity to put your side forward. Bible verses please - go for it - I'm all ears. Don't go beyond what is written though.

Third, it's my business because, as a Christian, I want to see all people out from under the thumb of tyrants.

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Really? But on page 3, you said this:

But no one has claimed thet the war was to free the Iraqi people. That was a wonderful side benefit of the war, but it was not even in the top five reasons for the war.

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see: http://www.christianforums.com/t94331&page=3

Have you changed your mind?

Notice that Jesus was speaking to His disciples concerning their reaction in light of persecution for the sake of the Gospel, not supporting their nation in time of national emergency.

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Really? Convenient that you can draw a line so neatly according to your theology. So your allowed to hate your enemy, provided he/she is not persecuting you for your faith - then you need to love him?

You also need to be able to answer where does it say you need to support your nation, other than obey the law (where it doesn't contradict the bible) and pay your taxes?

Here is something else to consider: Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, right?

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God?

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How come David wasn't allowed to build the first temple? The reason is explained here:

1 Chronicles 22
7 David said to Solomon: "My son, I had it in my heart to build a house for the Name of the LORD my God. 8 But this word of the LORD came to me: 'You have shed much blood and have fought many wars. You are not to build a house for my Name, because you have shed much blood on the earth in my sight. 9 But you will have a son who will be a man of peace and rest, and I will give him rest from all his enemies on every side. His name will be Solomon, [1] and I will grant Israel peace and quiet during his reign.

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Answer: Because he had shed blood.

What makes you think its ok to shed blood nowadays and still claim to be building God's temple?

gnine, in stating that you just go about it a different way, that is fine, but do not judge us for the way we go about it. And as far as allowing people to die at the hands of an evil man, well,

Leviticus 19:16
Do not go around spreading slander among your people, but also don't stand idly by when your neighbor's life is at stake;I am Adonai

Now you many and probably will say that this verse is OT so it is not valid, but that is a whole other argument.

As far as Yeshua(Jesus) not taking on the government, it wasn't time yet. We cannot know all that G-d has planned, we can only know that for some reason it wasn't time.

Here are some scriptures for you.

Revelation 6:1-2
Next I watched as the Lamb broke the first of the seven seals and I heard one of the four living beings say in a thundering voice, "Go!". I looked, and there in front of me was a white horse; its rider had a bow and was given a crown; and he rode off as a conquerer to conquer


Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there in front of me was a pallid, sickly-looking horse. Its rider's name was Death, and Sh'ol followed behind him. They were given authority to kill one-quarter of the world by war, by famine, by plagues and with the wild animals of the earth.

Revelation 9:13-16
The sixth angel sounded his shofar, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the gold altar before G-d, saying to the sixth angel, the one with the shofar, "Release the four angels that are bound at the great river Euphrates!" And they were released. These four angels had been kept ready for this moment, for this day and month and year, to kill a third of mankind; and the number of cavalry soldiers was two hundred million!-I heard the number.

Acts 10:22
They answered, "Cornelius. He's a Roman army officer, an upright man and a G-d-fearer, a man highly regarded by the whold Jewish nation; and he was told by a holy angel to have you come to his house and listen to what you have to say."

I will say here that nowhere is Cornelius told that to be a follower of Christ, he must leave the military.

I am not asking for you to run straight to your recruiter and sign up, just that you should not judge others for their life, their faith, and their choices.

gnine said:

Calm down please. Just because you disagree with me, doesn't mean you have to get all angry. Don't you believe in free speech?

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I'm not "all angry". You asked a question and I answered you.

First of all? Does that mean your an American first, and a Christian second?

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No. It means that I had three reasons and that was the first one.

Even if being an American contradicts what it means to be a Christian? I prefer to belong to a holy nation rather than defining what I believe by who I pay my taxes to.

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I don't believe that being an American contradicts what it means to be a Christian. If you do, then perhaps you should consider leaving and sacrificing your citizenship.

Lets reserve judgement on that one - eh?

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Let's not. A falsehood was spread as to the nature of the war.

Bible verses please - go for it - I'm all ears. Don't go beyond what is written though.

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What kind of Bible verse are you looking for? Can you show me a Bible verse that explains why Jimmy Carter gave away the Panama Canal?

Really? But on page 3, you said this:

Have you changed your mind?

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Not at all. I don't see the two as being contradictory.

We didn't fight the Civil War over slavery but it was one of the things that led to the end of slavery.

We didn't fight the Nazis to liberate the Jews but we ended up liberating the Jews.

In the same way, we did not go to Iraq for humanitarian reasons but we did take advantage of the opportunity presented to us to help.

Really? Convenient that you can draw a line so neatly according to your theology.

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It's called context.

So your allowed to hate your enemy, provided he/she is not persecuting you for your faith - then you need to love him?

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I don't know that you're ever allowed to hate anyone. This has nothing to do with hating anyone, anyway.

Here is something else to consider: Your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, right?

How come David wasn't allowed to build the first temple? The reason is explained here:

Answer: Because he had shed blood.

What makes you think its ok to shed blood nowadays and still claim to be building God's temple?

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If this were Old Testament Israel and we were building the temple, you might have a point but it isn't, we're not and you don't.