Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?

[jinc1019]

6 of one 1/2 dozen of the other.

"The penny is responsible for holding still on the floor.... I am responsible for the ones that I choose to pick up".

looks the same as predestination, Calvinism you name it.

It is predestination yes, but they would affirm that God predestines people ONLY to life in Christ, never to death. In other words, God predestines faith only (single predestination). This is a logical impossibility, and they acknowledge this and admit it, but that's what they believe the Bible plainly teaches.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Arbitrary, by definition, means there's no reason for choosing. But I think you're still not getting my point. All those "reasons" people would choose to reject God have to come from somewhere. Perhaps they are genetically predisposed to think that way or grew up with parents who always put down Christianity, or whatever. Anyway you look at it, something caused that person to believe one thing or another, and that cause is evidence of God's predestination and inclusion in the choice.

No objective reason for choosing. One makes an arbitrary choice based upon one's own subjective preferences not upon some universal principle or consensus opinion. That is not the same as having no reason but may be the same as having no good reason. In the case of the reasons that one might choose to reject God, They do not come from an outside source but from the way a person chooses to view reality. I see no evidence that God has forced a POV upon any person. I also do not see how anyone other than God possesses the power to do that.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Ok, so are you saying DNA, environment, etc. have nothing to do with it? Why then are some people "married to the world" and others crave the things of God?

I do not think that is the case. IMO all are married to the world and all crave the things of God. The problem is that one is not able to accommodate both at the same time, not that one does not want to. So one is forced to choose which of the two one will give one's first allegiance to. That choice is not inherent in the person or forced in any way upon the person by any outside influence. It is not a choice about salvation either btw. Salvation is not a choice. It is an action of God which only God has the power to perform.

 

[jinc1019]

No objective reason for choosing. One makes an arbitrary choice based upon one's own subjective preferences not upon some universal principle or consensus opinion. That is not the same as having no reason but may be the same as having no good reason. In the case of the reasons that one might choose to reject God, They do not come from an outside source but from the way a person chooses to view reality. I see no evidence that God has forced a POV upon any person. I also do not see how anyone other than God possesses the power to do that.

Why does one person have preferences that oppose faith while another doesn't? Why does one person choose to view reality that way, when another person does the opposite? Thus far, no one is actually addressing the real issue here.

 

[jinc1019]

I do not think that is the case. IMO all are married to the world and all crave the things of God. The problem is that one is not able to accommodate both at the same time, not that one does not want to. So one is forced to choose which of the two one will give one's first allegiance to. That choice is not inherent in the person or forced in any way upon the person by any outside influence. It is not a choice about salvation either btw. Salvation is not a choice. It is an action of God which only God has the power to perform.

Well yes, you're a Lutheran (a monergist) so you don't actually believe in free will as an Arminian would, which is sort of what I'm asking about. Lutheranism doesn't conflict with anything I'm saying.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Why does one person have preferences that oppose faith while another doesn't? Why does one person choose to view reality that way, when another person does the opposite? Thus far, no one is actually addressing the real issue here.

You are asking a question that it is not possible for me to answer in a way that will satisfy you. There are billions of reasons corresponding to the billions of individuals that populate the planet. You are expecting an answer that is true for everyone all the time but such an answer would be a falsehood as each individual has a different motivation for their choices. You are asking a question that assumes that there is something other than personal preference that causes one to have a personal preference. That is not, IMO, the case. Personal preference is idiosyncratic and totally under the control if the individual and there is no way for me to tell you how the billions of people in the world have come to their personal preferences.

 

[jinc1019]

You are asking a question that it is not possible for me to answer in a way that will satisfy you. There are billions of reasons corresponding to the billions of individuals that populate the planet. You are expecting an answer that is true for everyone all the time but such an answer would be a falsehood as each individual has a different motivation for their choices. You are asking a question that assumes that there is something other than personal preference that causes one to have a personal preference. That is not, IMO, the case. Personal preference is idiosyncratic and totally under the control if the individual and there is no way for me to tell you how the billions of people in the world have come to their personal preferences.

No I'm not assuming any of those things. I'm just not sure there is a good way for me to explain my point to you. I thought I had done that but you still keep focusing on things that have nothing to do with it, which is likely an indictment on me, not you. I don't think you can understand what I'm saying because of your Lutheran theology. The problem I am presenting DOES NOT APPLY to Lutheranism. Lutheranism is monergistic, meaning the answer to my question is: God does the saving and man doesn't choose. Arminians, Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc. can't say that. They are not monergists. This question is really addressed to people who believe man must choose, in some capacity, salvation for himself (with the help of God's grace, of course).

 

[BobRyan]

It is not a choice about salvation either btw. Salvation is not a choice. It is an action of God which only God has the power to perform.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4
"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

Looks like a choice.

 

[Winepress777]

"Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?"

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There's your choice. What do you chose? Call it what you want, it's your choice.

 

[Albion]

"Isn't Free Will Arbitrary?"

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

There's your choice. What do you chose? Call it what you want, it's your choice.

Not necessarily. If you have to choose and your only chance of making the correct choice is because some other being gave you the answer, would that be called Free Will? That's our situation before God makes us finding him possible. We can no more choose God without God making it possible than it would be to choose between various scientific propositions written in a foreign language if we neither read that language or knew the first thing about science. Yet, it might be said that we have "Free Will" if we are required to make a completely random selection.

 

[Winepress777]

Not necessarily. If you have to choose and your only chance of making the correct choice is because some other being gave you the answer, would that be called Free Will? That's our situation before God makes us finding him possible. We can no more choose God without God making it possible than it would be to choose between various scientific propositions written in a foreign language if we neither read that language or knew the first thing about science. Yet, it might be said that we have "Free Will" if we are required to make a completely random selection.

It is quite simple. No need to invent a scenario of confusion that makes you ponder your free will. What's the point of that? The point is, you Choose Life or you choose death. Regardless wondering why God gave you that free will choice lol. It is the CHOICE you make that is important. Not how those circumstances came about. Obviously God gives us that choice just as He says in Holy Writ. Simple. Try not to confuse it, just make the right choice

 

[Albion]

It is quite simple. No need to invent a scenario of confusion that makes you ponder your free will. What's the point of that? The point is, you Choose Life or you choose death.

No, that isn't the point. How you are able to choose--if you are--is the point. Of course we all think choosing the right way is marvelous but since we would have no way of knowing what to choose if God did not make it possible, talk about free choice in the absence of any acknowledgment of God's role in it is meaningless.

 

[jinc1019]

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?"
"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

Looks like a choice.

I agree. Definitely looks that way.

 

[Albion]

I agree. Definitely looks that way.

All of those verses speak to making the right choice; none says that you can do it by yourself.

 

[Winepress777]

No, that isn't the point. How you are able to choose--if you are--is the point. Of course we all think choosing the right way is marvelous but since we would have no way of knowing what to choose if God did not make it possible, talk about free choice in the absence of any acknowledgment of God's role in it is meaningless.

There you go again lol, taking something simple and making it confusing to yourself. I didn't say anything to you about not acknowledging God. Only you did. Again I ask, Why would you even confuse yourself throwing that in? Look at the scripture again, GOD provided it. No brainer. HE is the one giving you the choice. Why try to twist yourself up into a corner? Read it again;

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Doesn't that verse acknowledge that God gives us our choice? Simple. VERY simple.

So since we are on the topic, I have to ask... have you chosen Life? or have you chosen death? Your one word answer will tell us all we need to know

 

[Albion]

There you go again lol, taking something simple and making it confusing to yourself.

I'm not confused at all, but a simplistic answer that isn't right is not much good just for being simple.

I didn't say anything to you about not acknowledging God.

That's correct...and it's the glaring error in the "Free Will" claims. You cannot make a free choice if you don't know what you're choosing between, yet that is the scenario you have presented to us.

 

[Winepress777]

I'm not confused at all, but a simplistic answer that isn't right is not much good just for being simple.


That's correct...and it's the glaring error in the "Free Will" claims. You cannot make a free choice if you don't know what you're choosing between, yet that is the scenario you have presented to us.

This is the only scenario I am presenting before you, that apparently you don't chose to answer;

(Deu 30:19) I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Whether you choose to answer it or not, is the only point to be made by either of us as men. I chose Life. What did you choose? or do you rather not want to choose such a thing in front of God and men at this time? Nothing else you've imagined about this topic has one whit of value to men or to God. Only your choice. Is it Life? Or is it death?

 

[BobRyan]

All of those verses speak to making the right choice; none says that you can do it by yourself.

None says that God is zapping one person to make that choice but not another. In fact they all argue against it since "How I wanted... but YOU would not" and also "He came to HIS OWN" both show God taking action and the person still refusing.

In Rev 3 God takes action (supernatural) when He "stands at the door and knocks".

In Calvinism - God "bursts down the door and comes in because of course the person inside cannot open the door" - but that is not what the Bible says. It is what Calvinism says.

In 4 and 5 point Calvinism - these scenarios cannot even exist. All of them have God taking supernatural action - short of mind-zapping - and all of them show that the next step is up to the person that has been 'given' free will.

"He came to His OWN and His OWN received Him not" John 1:11
"Jerusalem how I WANTED to spare your children..but YOU would not" Matt 23
"what MORE Could I have done - that I have not done?" Is 5:4
"we BEG YOU on behalf of Christ - BE reconciled to God" 2Cor 5
"I STAND at the door and KNOCK - IF ANYONE hears My voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL come in" Rev 3

 

[SkyWriting]

couldn't it easily be said that God is in fact ultimately behind the decision?

And we have free will as well. It's only when you compare the two points of
view that you end up trying to describe what in impossible to describe.

 

[BobRyan]

And when the person chooses to respond to the "Drawing" what then?

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

(Not - "is already saved" before doing that)