Islam doesn't condone terror

[b&wpac7]

That is why Judeo-Christian Scriptures do NOT teach, guide, or suggest to act defensive in a physical manner, they speak about God's sovereignty and His right to vengeance.

Slightly off topic, but where do you stand on defending yourself? I know if someone attacks me, I'm going to fight back seeking the best way to end the attack quickly. I know some in Christianity take the "turn the other cheek" saying from Jesus to mean basically stand there and get your butt kicked.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

But when people is full of hate and don't want to understand and listen, they keep arguie in a circle that goes around and around without really paying attention.

That is YOU buddy, go back and read your posts. Point the finger to yourself before blaming others, the world will be a BETTER PLACE when the entire muslim ummah will stop blaming others for their own shortcomings.

My world is bigger than hitting on christians/Jewish people. I just had it as an example of how wrong they are about what they say. My sources are christian theologians/Books who already admited this .

Seriously you do not know what you are talking about, you have not scratched the surface of biblical exegesis and the issues regarding the unity of the text; this text's coherent use of form and language to produce an integrated whole in terms of meaning and value. What will you do when I bring sources from Christian theologians/books that disprove you? What? The problem here is not the way you deal with evidence, the problem is your mindset and your agenda.

My challange is still left to everyone that says Islam condone terror. These people won't even put up a verse with apporves their argument.

Islam condones violence, in different shapes or forms and this is a FACT! I don't need a verse to prove it, I just look at the actions of the islamic ummah around the world...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Slightly off topic, but where do you stand on defending yourself? I know if someone attacks me, I'm going to fight back seeking the best way to end the attack quickly. I know some in Christianity take the "turn the other cheek" saying from Jesus to mean basically stand there and get your butt kicked.

Elaboration is necessary as I read back my remark and see it is incomplete. The example he dealt with was a case that the individual was acting upon vengeance, I wanted to highlight that we do not allow such case. Turn the other cheek has physical connotations to some, and especially to muslims who are not involved in Christian spiritual exercise. We are scripturally allowed for self-defense and Christ's commandment was not about pacifism, but it was on the topic of spiritual struggle. He didn't teach to be aggressors, however He didn't rebuke offensive elements like the military. If we don't turn the other cheek when instigated then the situation might elevate and would became harmful for our spiritual life.

 

[b&wpac7]

We are scripturally allowed for self-defense and Christ's commandment was not about pacifism, but it was on the topic of spiritual struggle.

Makes sense. I have often wondered about people who take it as pacifism. If all Christians were pacifists, they would be slaves to someone. Wouldn't work out that well.

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

They were given their own region in the capital of Hawler, so they could practise their religion in peace. How is that a problem?

Religion COULD and SHOULD be practiced ANYWHERE with peace. Why do you think they regionalize themselves so they can practice religion in peace? There is no peace somewhere else?

You didn't apologize for crusaders, your pope and most of the christians did though. I've never claimed I support killing of jews/christians/any human begins...Why do you bring this up to me?

The Latin Church lead the Crusade effort, they even ransacked the byzantine Church in Constantinople since we didn't agree with them on certain matters. However even though I admit that the apology was a political move to gain islamic support and strengthen ties, I see that it only boosted arrogance among muslims that what they originally intended by attacking the Holy Land was justified somehow...

 

[HumbleSiPilot77]

Makes sense. I have often wondered about people who take it as pacifism. If all Christians were pacifists, they would be slaves to someone. Wouldn't work out that well.

Yes that interpretation doesn't follow, there are many military saints and Church still canonized them as saints however even they were military, they were never aggressors. This was brought up to me by our priest now that I will train to fly Apache helicopters, I will have the power to unleash hell under my trigger finger, the first exhortation to me from the priest was "NEVER use UNNECESSARY force if you are to engage"

 

[plenary]

John/Paul was not prophets. If these people were being "inspired" by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people's mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John). Why did they not just openly say "God inspired me and I will add a chapter to the Bible in my name"? Also, why did God need to wait till after the departure of Jesus to "inspire" his "true" nature? Why not let Jesus (pbuh) say it himself?

A prophet is someone, who has the gift of prophecy... That is a prophet...

Both the old testament prophets, as well as the new testament as well as the modern time prophets, all prophecy through the Spirit of God... Thereby, the texts of the Bible, are not man-made, but through the Spirit of God...
That is the reason, why all the spiritual Gifts, are through the Holy Spirit of God...

Claiming that the Bible is man-made, is thereby completely false.....

And we know a great deal more, about Christ's life among us, than is written in the Bible... God has even provided a day by day account of the live of Christ... It spans 11 volumes of prophetic text about the life of Christ... Day by day... And it is 100% in accordance with the biblical account of John...


And Yes, John was a prophet, just like the fact that Paul was a prophet, because John had revelations and Paul was a apostle, which means that he also was a prophet... (because a apostle is a send out prophet.)

There is a vast collection of extra-Biblical prophetic texts.... And some of which are extremely profound...

 

[Rebax]

You don't know that, maybe I was, maybe he raped a loved one of mine, you don't know the circumstances in any case, you can't propose who is innocent under what circumstance, basically God is the judge, not you. Jihad is wrong when it is physical, simple as that. That is why Judeo-Christian Scriptures do NOT teach, guide, or suggest to act defensive in a physical manner, they speak about God's sovereignty and His right to vengeance.
Mindset of a jihadist, tell them they are wrong.
Exactly, many nations that stood before the Islamic military might were innocent, they have done NO HARM to muslims, muslims were the aggressors to capture Jerusalem in 11th century that triggered the Latin response. Your logic is flawed, I am innocent, I didn't hurt any muslims, but I am not considered innocent because I wear the US military uniform. So in the eyes of the politically guided muslim, the definition of innocent is not a constant. You fail to recognize the problems of your own ummah.

''Maybe he raped a loved of mine''
Of course God makes the final decision of who is guility and who is not, but in the example I put was pretty simple and it didn't show what you said about harmed anyone els. So you see, if someone harms you, you are allowed to be defensive. Right now you support defensive Jihad yourself, seems like it atleast.


Jihad is wrong psychial? How do you fit it in the reality? If someone attacks you, you will surely attack back. Ain't that what you are doing Mr.Ex-Soldier, ''defending your country''?

You said Judeo-Christian scriptures dosen't allow defensive in psychial manners, but they let you attack? Hmm, what's better ?

GOD Almighty Chose the land of Palestine to be the Jews' "Promise Land", and thus, ordered them to go into it and fight the pagans there so they can have possession over it:
Numbers 13:26-28
26 They came back to Moses and Aaron and the whole Israelite community at Kadesh in the Desert of Paran. There they reported to them and to the whole assembly and showed them the fruit of the land.
27 They gave Moses this account: "We went into the land to which you sent us, and it does flow with milk and honey! Here is its fruit.
28 But the people who live there are powerful, and the cities are fortified and very large. We even saw descendants of Anak there.

"Now kill all the boys [innocent kids]. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. (Numbers 31:17-18)"

Now what crime did the innocent children and non-virgin women commit in order for them to get killed?


1-6
1 When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girga[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]es, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; 2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: 3 Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. 4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly. 5 But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. 6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth

So note, Jesus allows Moses to completly destroy cities and show NO MERCY, NO MERCY AT ALL meaning you can do whatever you want to them. Not only that, Jesus orders Moses and his army to destroy all their images and their places of worship, so much for religous tolerance among Christians.

So you claim the capture the muslims did of Jerusalem was bad? So the christians had to take action (again we're back to defensive Jihad xD) funny ey?

Anyways, let me hit you with some sources about Jerusalem under islamic rulers.

Again these are not my opinions nor did I get this from my grandma but from real historians, and they are not Muslims on top of that.

Huston Smith

"…Muslims point to the long centuries during which in India, Spain, and the Near East, Christians, Jews, and Hindus lived quietly and in freedom under Muslim rule. Even under the worst caliphs, Christians and Jews held positions of influence and in general retained their religious freedom. The Christians, not Muslims, we are reminded, expelled the Jews in the fifteenth century from Spain where they had lived in freedom while the Muslims were in power. To press this example: Spain and Anatolia changed hands at about the same time — Christians expelled the Moors from Spain while Muslims conquered what is now Turkey. Every Muslim was driven from Spain, or put to the sword, or forced to convert, whereas the seat of the Eastern Orthodox Church remains in Istanbul to this day. Indeed, if comparisons are the issue, Muslims consider Christianity’s record to be the darker of the two. Who was it, they ask, who preached the Crusades in the name of the Prince of Peace? Who instituted the inquisition, invented the rack and the stake as instruments of religion, and plunged Europe into its devastating wars of religion?[5] "


Thomas W. Arnold

"We have never heard about any attempt to compel non-Muslim parties to adopt Islam or about any organized persecution aiming at exterminating Christianity. If the Caliphs had chosen one of these plans, they would have wiped out Christianity as easily as what happened to Islam during the reign of Ferdinand and Isabella in Spain; by the same method which Louis XIV followed to make Protestantism a creed whose followers were to be sentenced to death; or with the same ease of keeping the Jews away from Britain for a period of three hundred fifty years.[4] "

Thomas W Arnold about Hindus:

"That the conversion were in the main voluntary, may be judged from the toleration that the Arabs, after the first violence of their onslaught, showed towards their idolatrous subjects. The people of Brahmanabad, for example, whose city had been taken by storm, were allowed to repair their temple, which was a means of livelihood to the Brahmans, and nobody was to be forbidden or prevented from following his own religion, and generally, where submission was made, quarter was readily given, and the people were permitted the exercise of their own creeds and laws. (p. 272)"

" The history of proselytising movements and the social influences that brought about their attention, and most of the commonly accessible histories of the Muhammadans in Indian, whether written by Europeans or by native authors, are mere chronicles of wars, campaigns and the achievements of princes, in which little mention of the religious life of the time finds a place, unless it has taken the form of fanaticism or intolerance. (p. 255) "

 

[Rebax]

A prophet is someone, who has the gift of prophecy... That is a prophet...

Both the old testament prophets, as well as the new testament as well as the modern time prophets, all prophecy through the Spirit of God... Thereby, the texts of the Bible, are not man-made, but through the Spirit of God...
That is the reason, why all the spiritual Gifts, are through the Holy Spirit of God...

Claiming that the Bible is man-made, is thereby completely false.....

And we know a great deal more, about Christ's life among us, than is written in the Bible... God has even provided a day by day account of the live of Christ... It spans 11 volumes of prophetic text about the life of Christ... Day by day... And it is 100% in accordance with the biblical account of John...


And Yes, John was a prophet, just like the fact that Paul was a prophet, because John had revelations and Paul was a apostle, which means that he also was a prophet... (because a apostle is a send out prophet.)

There is a vast collection of extra-Biblical prophetic texts.... And some of which are extremely profound...

You didn't read the response I had to your previous post, once you've done that then argument against it.

 

[Supreme]

Shamelessly tried to convert my Muslim friend today. I literally got a Bible from the library we were studying in and shoved it under her nose.

Didn't work, but I assured her she had Jesus inside her somewhere waiting to come out.

She knew practically nothing about the Bible, mind. Though I hear there aren't a great many of them back in Afghanistan.

 

[Rebax]

Shamelessly tried to convert my Muslim friend today. I literally got a Bible from the library we were studying in and shoved it under her nose.

Didn't work, but I assured her she had Jesus inside her somewhere waiting to come out.

She knew practically nothing about the Bible, mind. Though I hear there aren't a great many of them back in Afghanistan.

Maybe your friend already have found the truth and peace in Islam? Just a though.

Peace.

 

[Supreme]

Maybe your friend already have found the truth and peace in Islam? Just a though.

Peace.

Yeah... possibly.

Not going to stop me whenever we go to the library, though!

 

[Robban]

If you hit a person...beat him up till he's half death, taking over his house and he later comes back and kill you, are you innocent? That was just an example of defensive Jihad.

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Al-Baqarah 190-194)

You cleary see that in that verse which a lot of the people here seem to use. Is that wrong?

How hard is it to understand that someone who dosen't harm you is innocent? Seems to be hard for you to understand.

Your example of defensive jihad, it is a little difficult for me to grasp.
If someone was beaten halfdead, and that someone during the struggle caused the aggressors death, that would be one thing. But to come back later and murder that person, would that not be regarded as, premeditated murder.Or have I missunderstood the example?

 

[Rebax]

Your example of defensive jihad, it is a little difficult for me to grasp.
If someone was beaten halfdead, and that someone during the struggle caused the aggressors death, that would be one thing. But to come back later and murder that person, would that not be regarded as, premeditated murder.Or have I missunderstood the example?

My example was based on this verse, I admit if it was kinda bad since I was very busy when I wrote that verse.:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not do aggression, for Allah loves not the aggressors. Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrongdoers." (Al-Baqarah 190-194)

It was revealed after the Meccans drove out Muhammed (Pbuh) from the city and his compasions. Laters on there was a war and it was a defensive one since they took their freedom, home. Again as you see ''But if they desist then lo! Allah is forgiving'' Means if the war could have ended in a peaceful way then accepet it since Allah is the forgiving one, merciful.

Muhammed(phuh) Was sometimes covered with dirt, stoned by the people of quraish because he called to Allah, and said there's only one God and Thats Allah. They even tried to kill him, and thats when it was the first migration.

(Btw if you're interested in the life of Muhammed(Pbuh's) life then you can find lots of information on the internet, ask me if you're stuck.


Verses like this can be found here aswell About justice, :
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allâh, even though it be against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, be he rich or poor, Allâh is a Better Protector to both (than you). So follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you may avoid justice, and if you distort your witness or refuse to give it, verily, Allâh is Ever Well Acquainted with what you do [4:135]

"Show forgiveness, enjoin what is good, and turn away from the foolish (i.e., don't punish them).'' (7:199)

"The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e., Allah orders the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them badly) then verily he, between whom and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend. But none is granted it (the above quality) except those who are patient - and none is granted it except the owner of the great portion (of happiness in the Hereafter, i.e., Jannah and of a high moral character) in this world.'' (41:34,35)

The way (of blame) is only against those who oppress men and wrongly rebel in the earth, for such there will be a painful torment. (42:42)

"And verily, whosoever shows patience and forgives that would truly be from the things recommended by Allah.'' (42:43)

And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you; so pass over (their faults), and ask (Allah's) Forgiveness for them; and consult them in the affair. Then when you have taken a decision, put your trust in Allah, certainly, Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him). [3:159]

 

[JJWhite]

I'm kind of agreeing with Robban, here. The scenario doesn't seem right.

 

[Rebax]

I'm kind of agreeing with Robban, here. The scenario doesn't seem right.

What I was trying to get through as a message was, defensive Jihad is when someone occupies you, taking away your freedom, tries to kill you and so on and after that it is allowed to take action. Hope this is more clear brother. As stated in the verses above. I apologize for my weak post but I was in a real hurry and couldn't write much. Keep in mind that this kind of Jihad is the lowest one! The greater Jihad is fighting with your desires and the meteralism world that can take you in wrong directions.
Peace.

 

[Robban]

What I was trying to get through as a message was, defensive Jihad is when someone occupies you, taking away your freedom, tries to kill you and so on and after that it is allowed to take action. Hope this is more clear brother. As stated in the verses above. I apologize for my weak post but I was in a real hurry and couldn't write much. Keep in mind that this kind of Jihad is the lowest one! The greater Jihad is fighting with your desires and the meteralism world that can take you in wrong directions.
Peace.

No problem Rebax, no problem. It is not so easy communicating on a forum.

 

[Rebax]

No problem Rebax, no problem. It is not so easy communicating on a forum.

Thanks for that brother, is there any other questions that you would like me to answer before I head to sleep?

 

[Montalban]

What I was trying to get through as a message was, defensive Jihad is when someone occupies you, taking away your freedom, tries to kill you and so on and after that it is allowed to take action. Hope this is more clear brother. As stated in the verses above. I apologize for my weak post but I was in a real hurry and couldn't write much. Keep in mind that this kind of Jihad is the lowest one! The greater Jihad is fighting with your desires and the meteralism world that can take you in wrong directions.
Peace.

Excepting that Muhammed had people murdered who simply spoke out against him.

And we see this in our own day when Danish cartoonists were threatened with death

 

[Robban]

Thanks for that brother, is there any other questions that you would like me to answer before I head to sleep?

No, not at the moment, sleep well.