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Islam doesn't condone terror

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JJWhite

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There's a time and place for different responses. There are situations which require one to fight.

And where in the Qur'an does it say to slay and terrorize people of the book? There's the jizyah verse that some might like to bring up for discussion, but the 'slaying' verse has nothing to do with people of the book (plus you need to read that in context) and using fear-tactics during war is also not specifically related to people of the book. (Not saying that those verses apply to all those who are not people of the book either.)
 
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Montalban

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Moslems who are allowed to lie for the increase of their faith only note the 'peaceful' verses and don't tell you if these have been abrogated.

Those who surrendered to Moslems were not just forced to pay a special tax, but could be humilated as they paid it


Book 043, Number 7185:
Sa'id b. Jubair reported: I said to Ibn 'Abbas about Sura Tauba, whereupon he said: As for Sura Tauba, it is meant to humiliate (the non-believers and the hypocrites). There is constantly revealed in it (the pronoun) minhum (of them) and minhom (of them, i. e. such is the condition of some of them) till they (the Muslims) thought that none would be left unmentioned out of them who would not be blamed (for one fault or the other). I again said: What about Sura Anfal? He said: It pertains to the Battle of Badr. I again asked him about Sura al-Hashr. He said: It was revealed in connection with (the tribe) of Banu Nadir.
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
You either pay, to submit, or you die. It's like extortion. And you have to humiliate the Dhimmi in doing so...
Sheik Najih Ibrahim Ibn Abdulla summarizes the purpose of the Jizya. He says, quoting Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya, that the Jizya is enacted:
"...to spare the blood (of the Zimmis), to be a symbol of humiliation of the infidels and as an insult and punishment to them, and as the Shafi`ites indicate, the Jizya is offered in exchange for residing in an Islamic country." Thus Ibn Qayyim adds, "Since the entire religion belongs to God, it aims at humiliating ungodliness and its followers, and insulting them. Imposing the Jizya on the followers of ungodliness and oppressing them is required by God's religion. The Qur'anic text hints at this meaning when it says: `until they give the tribute by force with humiliation.' (Qur'an 9:29). What contradicts this is leaving the infidels to enjoy their might and practice their religion as they wish so that they would have power and authority."
http://www.answering-islam.org/NonMuslims/rights.htm

The joke of Moslem apologists is that it's a 'tax' on non-Moslems by the state - like non-Moslems are just paying their share. But that's false, 'cause it's imposed on non-Moslems that are 'independent' of the Moslem state - like paying 'tribute'.

Volume 2, Book 24, Number 559:

Narrated Abu Humaid As-Sa'idi

We took part in the holy battle of Tabuk in the company of the Prophet and when we arrived at the Wadi-al-Qura, there was a woman in her garden. The Prophet asked his companions to estimate the amount of the fruits in the garden, and Allah's Apostle estimated it at ten Awsuq (One Wasaq = 60 Sa's) and 1 Sa'= 3 kg. approximately). The Prophet said to that lady, "Check what your garden will yield." When we reached Tabuk, the Prophet said, "There will be a strong wind to-night and so no one should stand and whoever has a camel, should fasten it." So we fastened our camels. A strong wind blew at night and a man stood up and he was blown away to a mountain called Taiy, The King of Aila sent a white mule and a sheet for wearing to the Prophet as a present, and wrote to the Prophet that his people would stay in their place (and will pay Jizya taxation.) (1) When the Prophet reached Wadi-al-Qura he asked that woman how much her garden had yielded. She said, "Ten Awsuq," and that was what Allah's Apostle had estimated. Then the Prophet said, "I want to reach Medina quickly, and whoever among you wants to accompany me, should hurry up." The sub-narrator Ibn Bakkar said something which meant: When the Prophet (p.b.u.h) saw Medina he said, "This is Taba." And when he saw the mountain of Uhud, he said, "This mountain loves us and we love it. Shall I tell you of the best amongst the Ansar?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "The family of Bani-n-Najjar, and then the family of Bani Sa'ida or Bani Al-Harith bin Al-Khazraj. (The above-mentioned are the best) but there is goodness in all the families of Ansar."
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
Volume 4, Book 53, Number 386:

Narrated Jubair bin Haiya:

'Umar sent the Muslims to the great countries to fight the pagans. When Al-Hurmuzan embraced Islam, 'Umar said to him. "I would like to consult you regarding these countries which I intend to invade." Al-Hurmuzan said, "Yes, the example of these countries and their inhabitants who are the enemies. of the Muslims, is like a bird with a head, two wings and two legs; If one of its wings got broken, it would get up over its two legs, with one wing and the head; and if the other wing got broken, it would get up with two legs and a head, but if its head got destroyed, then the two legs, two wings and the head would become useless. The head stands for Khosrau, and one wing stands for Caesar and the other wing stands for Faris. So, order the Muslims to go towards Khosrau." So, 'Umar sent us (to Khosrau) appointing An-Numan bin Muqrin as our commander. When we reached the land of the enemy, the representative of Khosrau came out with forty-thousand warriors, and an interpreter got up saying, "Let one of you talk to me!" Al-Mughira replied, "Ask whatever you wish." The other asked, "Who are you?" Al-Mughira replied, "We are some people from the Arabs; we led a hard, miserable, disastrous life: we used to suck the hides and the date stones from hunger; we used to wear clothes made up of fur of camels and hair of goats, and to worship trees and stones. While we were in this state, the Lord of the Heavens and the Earths, Elevated is His Remembrance and Majestic is His Highness, sent to us from among ourselves a Prophet whose father and mother are known to us. Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, has ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone or give Jizya (i.e. tribute); and our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says:-- "Whoever amongst us is killed (i.e. martyred), shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever amongst us remain alive, shall become your master." (Al-Mughira, then blamed An-Numan for delaying the attack and) An-Nu' man said to Al-Mughira, "If you had participated in a similar battle, in the company of Allah's Apostle he would not have blamed you for waiting, nor would he have disgraced you. But I accompanied Allah's Apostle in many battles and it was his custom that if he did not fight early by daytime, he would wait till the wind had started blowing and the time for the prayer was due (i.e. after midday)."
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 351:

Narrated Al-Miswar bin Makhrama:

That 'Amr bin Auf, who was an ally of Bani 'Amir bin Luai and one of those who fought at Badr in the company of the Prophet , said, "Allah's Apostle sent Abu 'Ubaida bin Al-Jarrah to Bahrain to bring the Jizya taxation from its people, for Allah's Apostle had made a peace treaty with the people of Bahrain and appointed Al-'Ala' bin Al-Hadrami as their ruler. So, Abu 'Ubaida arrived with the money from Bahrain. When the Ansar heard of the arrival of Abu 'Ubaida (on the next day) they offered the morning prayer with the Prophet and when the morning prayer had finished, they presented themselves before him. On seeing the Ansar, Allah's Apostle smiled and said, "I think you have heard that Abu 'Ubaida has brought something?" They replied, "Indeed, it is so, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "Be happy, and hope for what will please you. By Allah, I am not afraid that you will be poor, but I fear that worldly wealth will be bestowed upon you as it was bestowed upon those who lived before you. So you will compete amongst yourselves for it, as they competed for it and it will destroy you as it did them."
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
and at
Volume 8, Book 76, Number 433:
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
Each of these three cases was where this 'tax' was imposed on people's not under the Islamic state.

Moslems allowed to extort money! What sort of god do they follow?
 
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Montalban

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Even their god humilates people
Surah
Al-A'raf
Ayah [167]
And (remember) when your Lord declared that He would certainly keep on sending against them (i.e. the Jews), till the Day of Resurrection, those who would afflict them with a humiliating torment. Verily, your Lord is Quick in Retribution (for the disobedient, wicked) and certainly He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (for the obedient and those who beg Allah's Forgiveness).

* dhimmi people had to cede the center of the road to Muslims;
* the only animal they could ride was a donkey;
* they could not testify against a Muslim in court;
* they could not build houses taller than those of Muslims;
* they could not build new places of worship;
* they had to pray quietly so as not to offend the ears of passing Muslims;
* a dhimmi man could not so much as touch a Muslim woman, but a Muslim man could take Jewish or Christian women as wives;
* a dhimmi could not defend himself if physically assaulted by a Muslim;
* dhimmis could not bear arms;
* dhimmis had to pay a special tax every year and were treated in humiliating fashion when paying it;
* in public, dhimmis had to wear distinctive clothing, intentionally designed to be humiliating;
* at least in the 9th century, dhimmis had to nail wooden images of devils to their doors;
Our Jerusalem.com -

" Jews were forced to do the hardest and most distasteful labor without pay, preferably on their Sabbath.

Jews were forced to live in a mellah or other restricted ghetto-like area. They were forbidden to ride horses or camels. They were required to step aside for any Muslim passing on the street or road."
JUDEOPHOBIA

Liturgical forms were strictly controlled. It was generally prohibited to ring church bells, sound shofars (ram's horns used in Jewish ceremony), publicly display crosses, icons, banners and other religious objects...
In many Muslim lands, Jews and Christians had to bury their dead without mourning. Dhimmi graves had to be specially marked lest a Muslim should accidentally pray over the grave of an infidel. The cemeteries of dhimmi were not respected since they were considered as being from the realm of hell. Commonly they were desecrated or even destroyed completely...
The Dhimmi, Jews and Christians Under Islam

This continued on throughout the period...
"When Jews were perceived as having achieved too comfortable a position in Islamic society, anti-Semitism would surface, often with devastating results: On December 30, 1066, Joseph HaNagid, the Jewish vizier of Granada, Spain, was crucified by an Arab mob that proceeded to raze the Jewish quarter of the city and slaughter its 5,000 inhabitants. The riot was incited by Muslim preachers who had angrily objected to what they saw as inordinate Jewish political power.

Similarly, in 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in "an offensive manner." The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.(6)

Other mass murders of Jews in Arab lands occurred in Morocco in the 8th century, where whole communities were wiped out by Muslim ruler Idris I; North Africa in the 12th century, where the Almohads either forcibly converted or decimated several communities; Libya in 1785, where Ali Burzi Pasha murdered hundreds of Jews; Algiers, where Jews were massacred in 1805, 1815 and 1830 and Marrakesh, Morocco, where more than 300 hundred Jews were murdered between 1864 and 1880.(7)

Decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were enacted in Egypt and Syria (1014, 1293-4, 1301-2), Iraq (854-859, 1344) and Yemen (1676). Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).(8)"
The Treatment of Jews in Arab/Islamic Countries

"In the late 1800's the Jews continued to suffer the same discriminatory practices as other non-Muslim "infidels" (58) which "in many places throughout Syria and Palestine" meant "oppression, extortion, and violence by both the local authorities and the Muslim population." (59) [p. 180]"
quoting Joan Peters book "From Time Immemorial--The Origins Of The Arab-Jewish Conflict Over Palestine (New York: Harper & Row, 1984.)" at
Dhimmi Status

And it continued on to the present where the Arab nations expelled large numbers of Jews following the creation of the state of Israel.

Here are some passages from the Sira revealing Muhammad's hatred of the Jews :

1. "Kill any Jews that fall into your power" said the Prophet: p.369

2. The killing of Ibn Sunayna, and its admiration leading someone to convert to Islam: p.369

3. The killing of Sallam ibn Abu'l-Huqayq: pp.482-483

4. The assassination of Ka'b.al-Ashraf, who wrote verses against Muhammad: pp.364-369

5. The raid against the Jewish tribe of the Banu'l-Nadir, and their banishment. pp.437-445

6. The extermination of the Banu Qurayza, between 600-800 men. pp.461-469
GAMLA: News & Views from Israel - Pigs & Monkeys
also cited at
http://goldwater.mideastreality.com/2004/dec/13_03.html
 
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Montalban

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Kill any Jews that fall into your power


"The apostle said, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'" (LoM page 369).

This story is also detailed in the Hadith collection of the Sunan of Abu Dawud, Book 19, Number 2996:

Narrated Muhayyisah: The Apostle of Allah said: If you gain a victory over the men of Jews, kill them. So Muhayyisah jumped over Shubaybah, a man of the Jewish merchants. He had close relations with them. He then killed him. At that time Huwayyisah (brother of Muhayyisah) had not embraced Islam. He was older than Muhayyisah. When he killed him, Huwayyisah beat him and said: O enemy of Allah, I swear by Allah, you have a good deal of fat in your belly from his property.

Was Muhammad A Terrorist?

However that Hadith is also found at this non-Islamic site...
Book 19, Number 2996:

Narrated Muhayyisah:

The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said: If you gain a victory over the men of Jews, kill them. So Muhayyisah jumped over Shubaybah, a man of the Jewish merchants. He had close relations with them. He then killed him. At that time Huwayyisah (brother of Muhayyisah) had not embraced Islam. He was older than Muhayyisah. When he killed him, Huwayyisah beat him and said: O enemy of Allah, I swear by Allah, you have a good deal of fat in your belly from his property.
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Moslems who are allowed to lie for the increase of their faith only note the 'peaceful' verses and don't tell you if these have been abrogated.

Do you believe the Muslims here who quote the "peaceful verses" actually reject them as having been abrogated and are simply doing that to trick you? Don't you think there is at least a chance that they might actually believe what they are typing? If there is a chance it would be kind of mean to judge their motives and say they are lying unless maybe they specifically said that it was abrogated in some other discussion.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Regarding dissimulation it is allowed by Shi'ites living under a state that persecutes Shi'ites to voice Sunni beliefs. In times of war lying is also "allowed" in some circumstances. That doesn't mean that the average Muslim considers it be religiously valid to lie in a friendly online discussion that has nothing to do with persecution or war.
 
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JJWhite

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Ok... I did a hadith search on the guy's name found it. My apologies. I had thought you were referring to that hadith in Bukhari about some Byzantine Emperor who commanded something similar. People often quote that bit of that hadith and say that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said it, when he did not. I was surprised that you would do something like that... which, of course, you didn't.

As for this hadith.. I found it.. along with a host of others giving more context. This is related specifically to the Battle of Khaybar. I'm actually really excited about finding all of these texts. Thanks.

الدرر السنية - الموسوعة الحديثية
 
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Palermo

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i have watched a video on net just a moment before,in video,some muslims says ''we want equalism and religilous tolerance in eu''.i think,muslims doesnt want equalism,because forcing them to pay a christian jizya to government,forbidding them to hold/wear arms/weapons,executing their apostates (who converts to islam),forbidding them to hold high status at government/military etc,forbidding them to build taller building then others and humiliating them is the real equalism as they do same things to others in sharia.so i think the problem in eu(rabia) is ''lack of equalism''.
 
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JJWhite

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Anyway... I have to run.. but I'll share what I found out so far... a few Muslim guys were on a trip, got tired, so decided to rest in Khaybar, which was a Jewish settlement, (Mahisah was one of them) and one of his friends was found murdered and the body thrown in a well, and from what I understand, the Jews denied doing it, but the Muslim guys insisted that the Jews of that city had done it.. (and there was a peace treaty between them).. (some hadiths have back and forth conversation between Prophet and a Muslim guy 'But they say they didn't do it' etc.) and then it looks like a battle order was given? I'm having a hard time putting all the narrations together and I haven't read them all yet. I'll keep trying to fill in the blanks.
 
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FRM48

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That would be error,for Mohammed spoke of abrogation in the Quran.Many of the muslims on this site have defended abrogation,bringing their theories on the issue,to me it shows flawed contradictory reasoning by it author and it is one of many reasons I will never accept the Quran as God's final revelation.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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So your logic runs along these lines:I've seen Muslims say that some verses have been abrogated THEREFORE these specific Muslims MUST believe that the specific verses they are quoting have been abrogated? Instead of asking do you just presume to tell them what they "actually" believe? Seems like you are just assuming that all the Muslims you talk to are violent extremists and if it sounds otherwise it's just because they are trying to trick you. This might come as a surprise but not all Muslims understand their religion in the same way you do.
 
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Montalban

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Most Moslems are aware that the peaceful verses have been abrogated therefore by citing them as proofs of Islamic belief they are deliberately misleading people.

That's the very point of abrogation.

Better verses were later revealed. It would be going against their god who revealed these to abrogate the ealier verses.

If they did believe these verses then they're citing verses that Muhammed himself went against.
 
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Montalban

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Lying in Islam isn't restricted to Shi'ites.

Furthermore Islam is permanently 'at war' with that part of the world not under Islam.

Here's an example of Muhammed allowing a lie to be said so as to murder someone...
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

This one individual was 'at war' with Islam because he was writing stuff mocking the prophet.
 
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Montalban

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What they want is to kill off proper discussion. In this country they nearly succeeded in the state of Victoria by bringing forth a legal action against a Christian group that had a discussion about Islam.

It's because Islam can never stand on its own merits.

Even here when many things are raised against Islam the discussions are diverted to ones about other faiths.
 
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Montalban

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That doesn't properly represent the position. There's in fact a great deal of irony given you mention presumptions about what people believe.

Moslems themselves know which verses are abrogated.

We go by the verses that we know that they themselves claim to have been abrogated.

One of these is the "There shall be no compulsion in religion"

You might be aware that in Islam, traditionally those who become Apostate are killed. They're given three chances to change their minds, and if they don't they're killed.

This is a 'compulsion' and it's ceratinly in religion.
 
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Ishraqiyun

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Moslems themselves know which verses are abrogated.
So they all agree? When I was a Muslim I never considered the "peaceful verses" abrogated.

We go by the verses that we know that they themselves claim to have been abrogated.
Who are "they"? You act as if Muslims are some monolithic block that agree 100% on the intricacies of abrogation and what has been abrogated. There is just as much diversity of opinion on issues of Quranic exegesis among Muslims as there is divergence of opinion on Biblical exegesis among Christians. Some Muslims are Quran only and reject the hadith, some Muslims tend to use a more allegorical manner of interpretation, some Muslims are fundamentalist extremists, some Muslims are liberals, some Muslims are conservatives, etc.

I'm not so sure all the Muslims who support the death of apostates (and that's certainly not all Muslims) necessarily believe the verse calling for "no compulsion in religion" to have been abrogated. They just justify to themselves that killing apostates isn't actually "compulsion in religion". More tortured logic if anything.
 
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