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Islam and the Immaculate Conception
- Thread starter Brother Simon
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anatolian
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"O Mary! Lo! Allah hath chosen thee and made thee pure, and hath preferred thee above (all) the women of creation"
Allah "made Maryam pure" could it not be explained as 'Maryam was not free from sins once but Allah cleaned all Her sins,like He cleaned of the Final Nabii ?
Allah "made Maryam pure" could it not be explained as 'Maryam was not free from sins once but Allah cleaned all Her sins,like He cleaned of the Final Nabii ?
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Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim are two of the most authentic collections of Hadith that have been studied by many scholars. It is not a good idea to question their authenticity.
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Yep, blame the Christians and here I was trying to stick up for you guys over here on this thread about ALLAH.
http://www.christianforums.com/t5135258-allah.html
I can't believe how nasty this thread has become over such a minor issue of semantics. As long as we can all agree that the Islamic god is not the One true God, does the rest of this debate really matter so much? Or can we just agree to disagree?
===============
quote LLOJ: Well, if you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen.
===============================
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!
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traversinginfinity
Regular Member
Yep, blame the Christians and here I was trying to stick up for you guys over here on this thread about ALLAH.
http://www.christianforums.com/t5135258-allah.html
I can't believe how nasty this thread has become over such a minor issue of semantics. As long as we can all agree that the Islamic god is not the One true God, does the rest of this debate really matter so much? Or can we just agree to disagree?
===============
quote LLOJ: Well, if you can't stand the heat, don't come into the kitchen.
===============================
http://www.answering-christianity.com/ac.htm
GOD Almighty Said: "`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"
In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!
This is the non-Christian forum. He has the right to call the entire Christian religion and the entire Bible a fabrication if he wants to. You are not staying on topic. The topic here is whether or not the religion of Islam holds the belief of the Immaculate Conception.
You claiming that the God of Islam is not the one true God adds nothing to this discussion. It's your opinion and it's completely irrelevant in this thread.
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This is what confuses me, so bare with me. The verse I supplied talks about the "touch of Satan" as coming from the offspring of Adam. It is something that everyone after Adam is born with.
Could it be that, since this is basically the Christian view of Original Sin, that Islam and Christianity both believe this? Maybe it's just a matter of wording, or maybe even a slight differ of how it works?
With love,
Simon
Could it be that, since this is basically the Christian view of Original Sin, that Islam and Christianity both believe this? Maybe it's just a matter of wording, or maybe even a slight differ of how it works?
With love,
Simon
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No, because we do not believe everyone has inherited this tendency to sin but rather outside forces such as the Devil and one's inner ego constantly work against one's soul into causing them to fall into sin. The best amongst us is those who learn how to control and ignore these urges.
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Just to correct you simon ;
first what you quoted was not a verse of the quran , but was a saying of the prophet muhammad. Islaam is based upon the quran and then the sunnah.The sunnah are the sayings , actions and that what the prophet consented to. This supports the quran and both are revelation , as God says in Chapter najm(The Star) verse 3-4: ' And he ( the [prophet Muhammad] ) does not speak out of his own hawaa ( desires). It is but a clear revelation'.
Therefore the saying/actions and what he consented to were compiled by different scholars.....and is a whole science/discpline within itself......but that wasnt the point here so I wont go deeper into that
2)As far as the touch of satan goes.....we know that satan hates mankind and wishes nothing but evil for them. This hatred eminated from his refusal to bow down to Adam as God commanded the angels. Satan (who is not an angel) refused this command and thus became from the disbelievers( those that reject worshipping,obeying and following Almighty God , doesnt necesarilly mean those that disbelieve in Him)
Satan has soooo much hatred for mankind that from the moment they are born he pricks them , which is the reason why a child cries when they are born,wether it is immediately or soon after.
he was not able to prick maryam or eesa...
Due to the supplication made by the mother of maria,when she was pregnant with her , she promised God that she would dedicate whatever was in her womb to God. During this time only boys were chosen to live in the masjid ( lit: place of prostration ) Al Aqsa (which is in Jerusalem , first place of worship built by Abaraham and his son Isaac)
Their job was to serve the masjid; conitunous worship....and this is what the mother of maryam wanted for what was in her womb.
These are the verses quoted in the previous page aswell, in Chapter 3 : the household of Imran starting from verse 34
Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), and the family of Ibrahim and the family of ‘Imran above the ‘Alameen (all creation during their respective times). Offspring, one of the other and Allah is the All-Hearer, All-Knowing.
(Remember) when the wife of ‘Imran said: ‘O my Lord! I have vowed to You what (the child that) is in my womb to be dedicated for your services (free from all worldly work and obligations; solely for your worship) so accept this from me. Verily you are the All-Hearer (You hear my Du‘a) and the All-Knowing (and you know my sincere intention in fulfilling this vow).’
Then when she gave birth to her (Marium), she said ‘O my Lord! I have given birth to a female child’ – And Allah knew better what she brought forth (He is the Creator), - ‘And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Marium(literally = pure maidservant of Allah), and I see refuge with You (Allah) for her and her offspring from the Shaytan (Satan), the outcast.’
So her Lord (Allah) accepted her with goodly acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zakariyya (Prophet Zachary)." Ali-‘Imran 3:33-37
:
the reason why she said 'the woman is not like the man', is because this role I told you about was at that time only for men....those that serves the masjid.
However she did not know that it wasnt just any woman she gave birth to, but the best and purest of women , that is why God says : 'And God knew best what she brought forth'
So Almighty God accepted the supplication she made; which as u can read above is that she sought protection for her mary and her offspring from satan the rejected one.
And it is for this reason that satan was not able to prick mary or jesus (her offspring) at their birth as the saying of the prophet mentioned, which u quoted:
"No new born escapes the prick (touch) of the Shaytan at the time of their birth. (The touch is what) causes them to begin to scream. Only Maryam and her son.''
Now this has nothing to do with original sin at all. It just shows that God accepted the supplication of the mother of Maryam and how much He honoured them. It provides lessons for us as those that submit to God.
There is no such thing at all as original sin.Rather there are many many verses in the quran that over and over again stretch that mankind will be judged upon what they have brought forth......and believe me u do not have to know alot of chapters to understand this. Just at the tip of my head (not that I have memorized all of the quran , but just to show you) I can quote to you that in chapter najm (The star ; it is one of my favourite chapters which Is why i know it) Allah explains it soooo clear:
starting from verse 33:
'Did you observe him who turned away (from Islaam)
And gave a little. then stopped (giving)
is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees?
Or is he not informed with what is in the Pages (scripture) of Musa (Moses.
And of Ibrahim (Abaraham) who fulfilled all that
i know u must be thinking what does this have to do with original sin. It is just that these verses are all connected; one leads to the other so therefore I had to start here and just to give some brief explanation of Ibn katheer (scholar who wrote explanation to quran using the sunnah as the prophet emphasised and expanded on certain verses;remember that all the verses that were sent down, were sent down bit ny bit over a period of 23 years and each was sent down adressing a certain circumstance at that time ; as a guide; thats why scholars from before studied these verses and studied the circumsatances ;the people that were present when it was revealed,etc all used to explain the verses)
So anyway this adresses those people that turn away by giving (in charity) but then suddenly stopping. Why because they fear their wealth might decrease! That is why Allah says : Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees? i.e How can he know his provisions will decrease, can he look into the future (part of unseen) so that he sees?
Then Allah explains further saying: Is he not informed with what is in the scripture of moses? And of Abaraham who fulfilled all . i.e Has this person no idea of what was send down to moses (the taurah) and abraham who fullfilled all (i.e he fullfilled all that Allah ordered him to do; he was complete in this way)
The Allah explains further of what was in these scriptures from before,which is really the point im trying to make:
'That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins of another.)
And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).
And that his deed will be seen
That he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense.
And that to your Lord (Allah) is the End (return of everything)
I believe this is quite self explanatory,put in such a beautiful way. This was part of what was in the scriptures/revelation that God send down before , that evry single person will only have to bear that what they have brought forth with their own hands,and u can have nothing but what you do. i.e you will amswer for all that you have done. And then on the Day of judgement you will see all that which you did. And then Allah will recompense you, judge you accordingly with a full and best recompense.
There are so many more things I can go into , but I think I must have lost most people throughout this already.
first what you quoted was not a verse of the quran , but was a saying of the prophet muhammad. Islaam is based upon the quran and then the sunnah.The sunnah are the sayings , actions and that what the prophet consented to. This supports the quran and both are revelation , as God says in Chapter najm(The Star) verse 3-4: ' And he ( the [prophet Muhammad] ) does not speak out of his own hawaa ( desires). It is but a clear revelation'.
Therefore the saying/actions and what he consented to were compiled by different scholars.....and is a whole science/discpline within itself......but that wasnt the point here so I wont go deeper into that
2)As far as the touch of satan goes.....we know that satan hates mankind and wishes nothing but evil for them. This hatred eminated from his refusal to bow down to Adam as God commanded the angels. Satan (who is not an angel) refused this command and thus became from the disbelievers( those that reject worshipping,obeying and following Almighty God , doesnt necesarilly mean those that disbelieve in Him)
Satan has soooo much hatred for mankind that from the moment they are born he pricks them , which is the reason why a child cries when they are born,wether it is immediately or soon after.
he was not able to prick maryam or eesa...
Due to the supplication made by the mother of maria,when she was pregnant with her , she promised God that she would dedicate whatever was in her womb to God. During this time only boys were chosen to live in the masjid ( lit: place of prostration ) Al Aqsa (which is in Jerusalem , first place of worship built by Abaraham and his son Isaac)
Their job was to serve the masjid; conitunous worship....and this is what the mother of maryam wanted for what was in her womb.
These are the verses quoted in the previous page aswell, in Chapter 3 : the household of Imran starting from verse 34
Allah chose Adam, Nuh (Noah), and the family of Ibrahim and the family of ‘Imran above the ‘Alameen (all creation during their respective times). Offspring, one of the other and Allah is the All-Hearer, All-Knowing.
(Remember) when the wife of ‘Imran said: ‘O my Lord! I have vowed to You what (the child that) is in my womb to be dedicated for your services (free from all worldly work and obligations; solely for your worship) so accept this from me. Verily you are the All-Hearer (You hear my Du‘a) and the All-Knowing (and you know my sincere intention in fulfilling this vow).’
Then when she gave birth to her (Marium), she said ‘O my Lord! I have given birth to a female child’ – And Allah knew better what she brought forth (He is the Creator), - ‘And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Marium(literally = pure maidservant of Allah), and I see refuge with You (Allah) for her and her offspring from the Shaytan (Satan), the outcast.’
So her Lord (Allah) accepted her with goodly acceptance. He made her grow in a good manner and put her under the care of Zakariyya (Prophet Zachary)." Ali-‘Imran 3:33-37
:
the reason why she said 'the woman is not like the man', is because this role I told you about was at that time only for men....those that serves the masjid.
However she did not know that it wasnt just any woman she gave birth to, but the best and purest of women , that is why God says : 'And God knew best what she brought forth'
So Almighty God accepted the supplication she made; which as u can read above is that she sought protection for her mary and her offspring from satan the rejected one.
And it is for this reason that satan was not able to prick mary or jesus (her offspring) at their birth as the saying of the prophet mentioned, which u quoted:
"No new born escapes the prick (touch) of the Shaytan at the time of their birth. (The touch is what) causes them to begin to scream. Only Maryam and her son.''
Now this has nothing to do with original sin at all. It just shows that God accepted the supplication of the mother of Maryam and how much He honoured them. It provides lessons for us as those that submit to God.
There is no such thing at all as original sin.Rather there are many many verses in the quran that over and over again stretch that mankind will be judged upon what they have brought forth......and believe me u do not have to know alot of chapters to understand this. Just at the tip of my head (not that I have memorized all of the quran , but just to show you) I can quote to you that in chapter najm (The star ; it is one of my favourite chapters which Is why i know it) Allah explains it soooo clear:
starting from verse 33:
'Did you observe him who turned away (from Islaam)
And gave a little. then stopped (giving)
is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees?
Or is he not informed with what is in the Pages (scripture) of Musa (Moses.
And of Ibrahim (Abaraham) who fulfilled all that
i know u must be thinking what does this have to do with original sin. It is just that these verses are all connected; one leads to the other so therefore I had to start here and just to give some brief explanation of Ibn katheer (scholar who wrote explanation to quran using the sunnah as the prophet emphasised and expanded on certain verses;remember that all the verses that were sent down, were sent down bit ny bit over a period of 23 years and each was sent down adressing a certain circumstance at that time ; as a guide; thats why scholars from before studied these verses and studied the circumsatances ;the people that were present when it was revealed,etc all used to explain the verses)
So anyway this adresses those people that turn away by giving (in charity) but then suddenly stopping. Why because they fear their wealth might decrease! That is why Allah says : Is with him the knowledge of the unseen so that he sees? i.e How can he know his provisions will decrease, can he look into the future (part of unseen) so that he sees?
Then Allah explains further saying: Is he not informed with what is in the scripture of moses? And of Abaraham who fulfilled all . i.e Has this person no idea of what was send down to moses (the taurah) and abraham who fullfilled all (i.e he fullfilled all that Allah ordered him to do; he was complete in this way)
The Allah explains further of what was in these scriptures from before,which is really the point im trying to make:
'That no burdened person (with sins) shall bear the burden (sins of another.)
And that man can have nothing but what he does (good or bad).
And that his deed will be seen
That he will be recompensed with a full and the best recompense.
And that to your Lord (Allah) is the End (return of everything)
I believe this is quite self explanatory,put in such a beautiful way. This was part of what was in the scriptures/revelation that God send down before , that evry single person will only have to bear that what they have brought forth with their own hands,and u can have nothing but what you do. i.e you will amswer for all that you have done. And then on the Day of judgement you will see all that which you did. And then Allah will recompense you, judge you accordingly with a full and best recompense.
There are so many more things I can go into , but I think I must have lost most people throughout this already.
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Thank you FoodForThought, I am having trouble understanding what I am reading (its different than what I'm used to) but I'm sure after prayer and deliberation I will be able to decipher it.
With love,
Simon
With love,
Simon
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Both religions share several things. It's just that in Islam, we believe that Islam is purifying the messages that were corrupted in the Bible, Tohrah, etc.
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anatolian
Senior Veteran
ok my response after all in islam there is not an Immaculate Conception in islam just because there is not an 'original sin' conception in islam...
for the authencity of Buhari and Muslim,I think we need another topic...but my main opinion for this issue,even if there are false hadiths in Buhari or Muslim this doesnt effect islam because the basics of faith are recorded in Quran and Allah Himself keeps Quran.
for the authencity of Buhari and Muslim,I think we need another topic...but my main opinion for this issue,even if there are false hadiths in Buhari or Muslim this doesnt effect islam because the basics of faith are recorded in Quran and Allah Himself keeps Quran.
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The Bukhari is very authentic. 70,000 people heard the Bukhari being recited and Bukhari himself prayed Nafl after getting another hadith for guidance.
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Brother Simon,
touched by satan doesn't mean :
1. to listen to his whispers. OR
2. to be possessed by satan. OR
but it actually means to be touched by satan and how is that, read the following:
Every new born baby cries by this touch on his waist out of envy by satan who envy our father adam and Eve of their offspring except Mary and Jesus ( PBU them both )who were protected by Allah from this touch that's why they didn't cry when they were new borns. And that's what made the devil more hatefull to Jesus and Mary ( PBU them both ) and for them protected from satan Allah has chosen Jesus to kill the anti-christ the "liar". And that's why prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has his heart been washed by angels with heavenly water to clean his heart from sins which were naturally inherited because of he forbidden fruit that father adam and mother Eve have eaten for the devil finding away through the human body that has special material which is this forbidden one that they have eaten which may go directly to the heart and that's why actually angels washed prophet's Muhammad (PBUH) heart and not any other parts. And that's maybe what has been called an original sin which goes back to the forbidden fruit that the devil advised father adam and mother Eve of eating it.
And to think back about the all prophets ,everyone of them all had made a mistake that they admit themselves in the Judgment Day when they say that they cannot mediate before God (Allah) except for prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who will pray infornt of Allah to forgive people and bless them with His Mercy.
Thank you
touched by satan doesn't mean :
1. to listen to his whispers. OR
2. to be possessed by satan. OR
but it actually means to be touched by satan and how is that, read the following:
Every new born baby cries by this touch on his waist out of envy by satan who envy our father adam and Eve of their offspring except Mary and Jesus ( PBU them both )who were protected by Allah from this touch that's why they didn't cry when they were new borns. And that's what made the devil more hatefull to Jesus and Mary ( PBU them both ) and for them protected from satan Allah has chosen Jesus to kill the anti-christ the "liar". And that's why prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has his heart been washed by angels with heavenly water to clean his heart from sins which were naturally inherited because of he forbidden fruit that father adam and mother Eve have eaten for the devil finding away through the human body that has special material which is this forbidden one that they have eaten which may go directly to the heart and that's why actually angels washed prophet's Muhammad (PBUH) heart and not any other parts. And that's maybe what has been called an original sin which goes back to the forbidden fruit that the devil advised father adam and mother Eve of eating it.
And to think back about the all prophets ,everyone of them all had made a mistake that they admit themselves in the Judgment Day when they say that they cannot mediate before God (Allah) except for prophet Muhammad (PBUH) who will pray infornt of Allah to forgive people and bless them with His Mercy.
Thank you
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