Isaiah's Salvation

[msortwell]

From a dispensationalist perspective . . . How was Isaiah saved?

I regret that none seem inclined to answer. I have a friend that holds to a Covenant Theology view (which I share). However, I believe he has a misconception regarding the position of dispensationalists as it relates to the salvation of Old Testament believers. Therefore, I was interested in what might be the majority and alternate views of dispensationalists here.

 

[msortwell]

It seems that Isaiah would be right before God by one of following means.

Isaiah trusted that God would graciously and mercifully provide a redeemer for His people.
Isaiah trusted that his own faith, manifested in observing God's laws and commands upon Isaiah's life was sufficient to be judged as righteousness.
Isaiah's obedience was judged by God to be sufficient for admission into glory.

Or . . . ?

 

[Biblewriter]

The Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same way we are now, by faith. But it was not an informed faith as we now have. It was faith in God, but there had not been a sufficiently clear revelation of the efficacy of Messiah's blood that they could have trusted in that.

What is clear from the scriptures is that they were not saved by works.

 

[msortwell]

The Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same way we are now, by faith. But it was not an informed faith as we now have. It was faith in God, but there had not been a sufficiently clear revelation of the efficacy of Messiah's blood that they could have trusted in that.

What is clear from the scriptures is that they were not saved by works.

To paraphrase then, you hold that they too were saved by grace, through faith, and that not of themselves . . .?

 

[riverrat]

Biblewriter wrote:

The Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same way we are now, by faith. But it was not an informed faith as we now have. It was faith in God, but there had not been a sufficiently clear revelation of the efficacy of Messiah's blood that they could have trusted in that.

What is clear from the scriptures is that they were not saved by works.

Wasn't "keeping the law" required as evidence of their faith even though they could not keep the law and even though "keeping the law" by itself could not save them?

 

[msortwell]

Wasn't "keeping the law" required as evidence of their faith even though they could not keep the law and even though "keeping the law" by itself could not save them?

Just clarifying . . . the question I had asked related to how Isaiah was saved. Which of the requirements that you have identified, if any, do you believe were requirements for salvation? Within this context it's important that I understand where distinctions are drawn between certain evidence OF salvation and that which leads TO salvation.

 

[riverrat]

msortwell: I agree with biblewriter that Isaiah was saved by faith in God.

 

[msortwell]

I understand that you each hold that Isaiah was saved by "faith in God." What is not as clear is what about God or in His actions they had faith IN? Clearly there are some folks today that have a misplaced faith in God. It seems clear that those crying out "Lord Lord" in Matt 7:21-23 have "faith." But it is a misplaced, misguided faith.

Can either of you explain more precisely upon WHAT their faith rested?

 

[riverrat]

msortwell wrote:

I understand that you each hold that Isaiah was saved by "faith in God." What is not as clear is what about God or in His actions they had faith IN? Clearly there are some folks today that have a misplaced faith in God. It seems clear that those crying out "Lord Lord" in Matt 7:21-23 have "faith." But it is a misplaced, misguided faith.

Can either of you explain more precisely upon WHAT their faith rested?

Their faith rested on the trust and belief that God would do what he said he would do as per the covenants that God made with Israel.

 

[msortwell]

Their faith rested on the trust and belief that God would do what he said he would do as per the covenants that God made with Israel.

You used the plural form . . . covenants. Are you referring to the land promise plus another or just the land promise or something else?

 

[riverrat]

msortwell : I am referring to all the covenants that God had given to Israel before the time of Isaiah. If I remember my timeline correctly this would not include the New Covenant that was given to Jeremiah.

 

[msortwell]

msortwell : I am referring to all the covenants that God had given to Israel before the time of Isaiah. If I remember my timeline correctly this would not include the New Covenant that was given to Jeremiah.

So you are saying that you believe that Isaiah was saved because he believed:

1. Abraham was to be blessed with innumerable descendents
2. Those descendents would be given a certain land
3. Jews were to live in accordance with the 10 commandments and the Levitical Laws
4. David's throne was to be eternally occupied by his descendents

And because they believed this, God graciously judged them to be righteous, or is it also important that they follow the Law of Moses?

 

[msortwell]

The Old Testament saints were saved in exactly the same way we are now, by faith. But it was not an informed faith as we now have. It was faith in God, but there had not been a sufficiently clear revelation of the efficacy of Messiah's blood that they could have trusted in that.

What is clear from the scriptures is that they were not saved by works.

It was not an "informed" faith? Are you saying that it was an ignorant faith? Doesn't faith have to have an object in which/whom faith is held?

 

[riverrat]

msortwell : You are losing me now. Do you want me to state the contents of each of the covenants? Don't have time to type this out but I will give you the scripture for them if it is necessary.

Instead of "Isaiah" you now refer to "they". I assume you are referring to all the Israelites. If so imo they would be saved the same way Isaiah was, by faith.

It is my understanding that the mosiac law required that the law be observed as evidence of their faith.

Hope this answers you questions.

 

[msortwell]

msortwell : You are losing me now. Do you want me to state the contents of each of the covenants? Don't have time to type this out but I will give you the scripture for them if it is necessary.

Instead of "Isaiah" you now refer to "they". I assume you are referring to all the Israelites. If so imo they would be saved the same way Isaiah was, by faith.

It is my understanding that the mosiac law required that the law be observed as evidence of their faith.

Hope this answers you questions.

I am sorry that I was not clearer. I was attempting to briefly summarize each of what I thought to be included in " all the covenants that God had given to Israel . . ." to which you had referred when you elaborated upon what you had previously said, when you said, "Their faith rested on the trust and belief that God would do what he said he would do as per the covenants that God made with Israel."

And I apologize for using the plural pronoun without explanation. I was thinking "Isaiah and his believing Jewish contemporaries." Clearly it would have been helpful if I had written what I was thinking.

So . . . If I understand your response, the object of saving faith (for Isaiah and his saved Jewish contemporaries) would have been the veracity of the covenants that I summarized, and that saving faith would be evidenced by general obedience to the Mosiac laws.

What role did sin, repentance, or grace have, if any? In our current dispensation, sin can be forgiven because Christ paid the price owed with His death.

What justified forgiving Isaiah's sin in your view? Was it simply because they trusted in the specified covenants that their sins could be forgiven?

 

[riverrat]

msortwell wrote:

What role did sin, repentance, or grace have, if any? In our current dispensation, sin can be forgiven because Christ paid the price owed with His death.

What justified forgiving Isaiah's sin in your view? Was it simply because they trusted in the specified covenants that their sins could be forgiven?

I don't know the answer about repentance except that it was required at the time of John the Baptist.

Actually salvation has always been by God's grace as mankind has never and will never deserve salvation.

As for sin it cannot be forgiven without the shedding of blood as per
Heb 9:22. Before Christ's death the sin of faithful Israelites was covered,
not forgiven, by the blood of animals. The actually forgiveness was not accomplished until Christ's death on the cross.

 

[msortwell]

msortwell wrote:



I don't know the answer about repentance except that it was required at the time of John the Baptist.

Actually salvation has always been by God's grace as mankind has never and will never deserve salvation.

As for sin it cannot be forgiven without the shedding of blood as per
Heb 9:22. Before Christ's death the sin of faithful Israelites was covered,
not forgiven, by the blood of animals. The actually forgiveness was not accomplished until Christ's death on the cross.

Rat,

Thank you for your willingness to respond, and for clarifying your positions when asked. It would be helpful if others would be as forthcoming.

Blessings,

msortwell

 

[riverrat]

msortwell: Now if I just get you into our dispensationalist camp all would be well!

 

[msortwell]

msortwell: Now if I just get you into our dispensationalist camp all would be well!

Well . . . I used to camp there. So I have a pretty good idea about the terrain. So it bothers me when my reformed brothers wrongly describe the beliefs of the dispensationists. If we are going to disagree, and we do, we ought to disagree about what we ACTUALLY believe.

 

[riverrat]

msortwell: Come on back and we will rightly divide the word of truth together.