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Isaac or Ismael?

smaneck

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Except that isn't quite what happened. The text reports that Sarah's request greatly distressed Abraham but that HaShem told him to listen to Sarah and that from Ishmael would come a great nation. HaShem basically promised to ensure Ishmael was alright.

Yes, God's promise to Ismael was fulfilled as well. But being ripped away from ones family because of jealousy is no small thing. Ismael *was* the legitimate first-born son. To have a child through the slave of ones wife was a form of surrogate motherhood. Hagar's baby would have been born into the lap of Sarah, making him the legitimate child of both Sarah and Abraham. Many of Jacob's sons were born the same way.
 
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football5680

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Apparently you missed my point. For a man to have to send his first born son into exile is most definitely a sacrifice. Yes, I realize that the Bible has it that Abraham later attempted to sacrifice Isaac, but the Bible is written by Isaac's descendants, after all.
The Bible was written by Isaac descendants because this is who the covenant was made through and the prophets were raised up from. Moses wrote what God told him to write down and this is where we got the story from. God didn't promise the land of Canaan to the descendants of Ishmael or bring the descendants of Ishmael out of Egypt.
 
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dew1

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Isaac or Ismael whom Abraham sacrificed?
The son of Sara, or the son of Hagar?
Two of them were blessed, but only one of them who received God's promises.


edited with thanks to muslimsoldier4life:
not sacrificed but ALMOST sacrificed..
the son of Sara and Abraham; Isaac.

and what's the matter?


Christians believe it was Isaac, Islam believe it was Ismael though this never mentioned in the Qur'an
 
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dew1

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Except that isn't quite what happened. The text reports that Sarah's request greatly distressed Abraham but that HaShem told him to listen to Sarah and that from Ishmael would come a great nation. HaShem basically promised to ensure Ishmael was alright.
Hashem' promises to make Ismael a great nation had fulfil, through his descendant; Muhammad.
But, He has SPECIAL promised for Isaac.
 
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GeorgeTwo

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Isaac or Ismael whom Abraham sacrificed?
The son of Sara, or the son of Hagar?
Two of them were blessed, but only one of them who received God's promises.


edited with thanks to muslimsoldier4life:
not sacrificed but ALMOST sacrificed..

Neither Isaac nor Ishmael was sacrificed, but God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, the child of promise, the only child of Abraham and Sarah.
 
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smaneck

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Quote the verses from the Qur'an. I think the Qur'an implies it was Isaac.

Surih 37

99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

Isaac is mentioned further on in the same surih:

112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves.

That would imply that the son Abraham attempted to sacrifice was already there before Isaac was born.
 
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GeorgeTwo

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Surih 37

99. He said: "I will go to my Lord! He will surely guide me
100. "O my Lord! Grant me a righteous (son)!"
101. So We gave him the good news of a forbearing son.
102. Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I have seen in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills, one of the steadfast!"
103. So when they had both submitted (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
104. We called out to him "O Abraham! ...
105. "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.

Isaac is mentioned further on in the same surih:

112. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet,- one of the Righteous.
113. We blessed him and Isaac: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves.

Let me help you using verses in the Qur'an

The following Surah speaks of Abraham's wife Sarah and the good news that she would have a son and call him Isaac.

And his wife was standing by, wondering. Then We announced to her the good news of Isaac, and from the progeny of Isaac, Jacob. Surah 11:71

Next Surah speaking of the sacrifice:

"O my Lord, grant me a righteous (son)!" So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear. Then when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said, "O my son, I see in a vision that I offer thee in sacrifice. Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said, "O my father, do as thou art commanded. Thou will find me if Allah so wills one practicing patience and constancy!" So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah) and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice), We called out to him, "O Abraham, thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For this was obviously a trial -- and We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):99-107

Notice in this Surah that the name of the son is not given but it does say that the birth of this son was "good news."

There is no account of Ishmael's birth in the Qur'an that I could find.

Next Surah:

Has the story reached thee of the honored guests of Abraham? Behold, they entered his presence and said 'Peace!" He said "Peace". ... They said, "Fear not," and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. But his wife came forward (laughing) aloud! She smote her forehead and said, "A barren old woman! " They said, "Even so has thy Lord spoken: and He is full of wisdom and knowledge." -- Surat-uz Zariyat (51):24-25, 28-30

This Surah is also talking about Sarah and Isaac. Notice we have the "good news/glad tidings" expression.

Next Surah:

Peace and salutation to Abraham! Thus indeed do we reward those who do right. For he was one of Our believing Servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet - one of the righteous. We blessed him and Isaac. -- Surat-us Saffat (37):109-113

Notice the phrases "and they gave him glad tidings of a son and "We gave him the good news of Isaac.

To my knowledge there is no Surah that refers to Ishmael as glad tidings or good news.


Notice what the commentary in my Qur'an says about this:

"The boy thus born was according to Muslim tradition (which however is not unanimous on this point) the first-born of Abraham viz. Ismail."

Why would this matter be "according to Muslim tradition" if the Qur'an was clear about who the son was? Why is the Qur'an so ambiguous?

I think the Qur'an confirms that it was Isaac and not Ishmael who God asked Abraham to sacrifice. The Qur'an is correct and the tradition is wrong.

The New Testament confirms it was Isaac.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.).

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered up his son Isaac upon the altar?" (James 2:21, R.S.V.)
 
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smaneck

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Notice in this Surah that the name of the son is not given but it does say that the birth of this son was "good news."

Abraham was said have been 80 years old when Ismael was born. You don't think that would have been good news?

There is no account of Ishmael's birth in the Qur'an that I could find.

Unless that is what Surah 37 refers to.

This Surah is also talking about Sarah and Isaac. Notice we have the "good news/glad tidings" expression.

Sorry, but the fact that Isaac was good news does not mean Ismael was not. In fact I presume the birth of Ismael after so many years was *great* news.

To my knowledge there is no Surah that refers to Ishmael as glad tidings or good news.

It isn't a name, George.

But if you want to play that game, the Qur'an only applies the words "patient" and "forbearing" to Ismael and those are the terms used in Surah 37.

Notice what the commentary in my Qur'an says about this:

"The boy thus born was according to Muslim tradition (which however is not unanimous on this point) the first-born of Abraham viz. Ismail."

Why would this matter be "according to Muslim tradition" if the Qur'an was clear about who the son was? Why is the Qur'an so ambiguous?

I think the Qur'an confirms that it was Isaac and not Ishmael who God asked Abraham to sacrifice. The Qur'an is correct and the tradition is wrong.

The New Testament confirms it was Isaac.

Since it depends on the Tanakh, I would expect that to be the case.

But this statement is obviously wrong:

"By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son ..." (Hebrews 11:17, R.S.V.).

Isaac with was not Abraham's only son. If Abraham offered up his only son it would *have* to be Ismael and it would have had to have occurred before Isaac was even born.
 
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smaneck

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Christ came from the lineage of Isaac, and not Ishmael. The Incarnation of God is through Isaac, and not Ishmael. For Christians, no other blessing or promise compares to being given the responsibility to bring the person of God into this world.
Ishmael is not an important figure in Christianity therefore. His is more of a local importance only.

But Muhammad came from the lineage of Ismael. That may not make him an important figure in Christianity but the second largest religion in the world can hardly be described as having 'local importance only.'
 
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sur

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...but, may I ask you which surah/ayah in the Quran that answer my question above, bro?

I asked exact same question to fellow muslims a while age HERE (Link)...

Quran does not specify which son it was... It's in Ahadees,,

In the link above, go thru post#9 that might help.
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Isaac or Ismael whom Abraham sacrificed?
The son of Sara, or the son of Hagar?
Two of them were blessed, but only one of them who received God's promises.


As to whom was to receive God's promise, read post#5(LINK) in the link above.

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..God didn't promise the land of Canaan to the descendants of Ishmael ...
Look closely, who was "The Seed"(sperm). --vs-- who was born "By Promise" to a barren.


Who was the HEIR????>the one born from flesh/sperm/bowel of Abraham:-
GEN 15:4 ....but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels(ishmael) shall be thine heir.




Gen:13:14…LORD said unto Abram…look…northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward. 15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

GEN:15:18…Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the river Euphrates
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GEN:21:13 And also of the son of the bondwoman (Hagar) will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.





Who was born by flesh(sperm\bowel)???> Ishmael:-
GAL 4:23 But he who was of the bondwoman(Hagar/Agar) was born after the flesh;....





Who was born by “Promise” that angel made about Sarah having a son?>>>Isaac:-
GAL 4:23 .......but he of the freewoman(Sarah/Sarai) was by promise. (also gen:21:1).
GAL 4:28 Now we(Jews & Christians), brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.


Who was the HEIR????>the one born from flesh/sperm of Abraham:-
GEN 15:4 ....but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels(ishmael) shall be thine heir.

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Abraham’s seed will divide exceedingly:-
GEN:17:2: And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee(Abraham) exceedingly.



This exceeding growth will be thru which son???>Ishmael(from Hagar the maidservent):-
GEN:16:10: And the angel of the LORD said unto her(Hagar/Agar), I will multiply thy(Hagar’s) seed(ishmael) exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.


GAL:4:27: For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren(Sarah) that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate(without husband;Hagar) hath many more children ....than .... she(Sarah) which hath an husband.(same in Is:54:1)






Ismail was BLESSED with excessively multiplying seed. NO such promise was made to Sarah.
Gen:17:8:And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed(Ismail)after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.9You shalt keep my covenant and thy seed(Ismail) after thee in their generations.

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smaneck

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Mohammed is merely a Prophet, so his lineage is of no direct importance, except as a point of pride among Arabs.

Prophethood is a much higher station in Islam than it is in Christianity. Like Jesus, Muhammad is a Prophet "like unto Moses."
 
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