Is your belief conditional?

[Cieza]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

 

[elman]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

What would be the point? What is the point of this post?

 

[Cieza]

What would be the point? What is the point of this post?

Each should be answered with a YES or a NO

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

 

[elman]

Each should be answered with a YES or a NO

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

No to all. So what? A question that would have some point to it, would be would you still love your neighbor? That one I would answer yes on.

 

[solarwave]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven

Well I find it hard to see how it could be proven that there is no heaven if God's existence hasn't been disproven. I'll assume its possible though.

1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

If there was still reason for belief then I assume I would. Or do you mean would I still follow God if there was no eternal reward?

 

[zaksmummy]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Many Jewish people do not believe that there is an eternal life after this one or that heaven exists, yet they still remain faithful to God in the obedience of his commandments. You see have faith in God is not just about what happens when you die, it also affects what you do with your life now.

 

[salida]

To me this is like saying would I believe in my mom if she kicked me out of her house for no reason. If I can't be with God someday-whats the point-heaven or somewhere else?

 

[AdamKane]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

These are ridiculous and empty suppositions which will never happen.

 

[zaksmummy]

These are ridiculous and empty suppositions which will never happen.

This section is "exploring Christianity", Cieza is asking a question, whats wrong with that?

 

[Pure760]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

Why are the questions always so negative, again let this be the important question:

What if it was proven that only pure love is real and everything outside of it is insane? What if this was common knowlage amongst humanity?

Its completely true but the problem is only one could prove this fact to themselves and faith is initally required. So the truth will never be accepted on a widespread scale which is the purpose of the apocalypse. The more that come to full understanding with the reality of things the more it will tip the scale so to speak.. and areas with no understanding will be destroyed and this will continue gradually until the true God reigns over the planet once and for all.

 

[Julian of York]

There seems to be some confusion here. Your profile says that you are a "humanist". Other readers likely do not understand this concept, so please bear with me for a moment while I attempt to help those understand what humanism is.
DEFINITION: "As an ethical process, humanism does not consider metaphysical issues such as the existance of supernatural beings."
Hmmm...If you are a humanist, does this describe your beliefs? If so, why do you bother with our beliefs in the supernatural? Are you a backslidden humanist, who is questioning her non-beliefs in God?
"For the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him; neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned."I Corinthians 2:14

Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you are saying. There is a line of thought called "religious humanism". Perhaps that is you.
DEFINITION: "Religious humanism attempts to fulfill the traditional social role of religion."
Hmmm...If you are a religious humanist, then you must be working for social justice, and understanding,and feeding and clothing the poor, and all of those good deeds.
"And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity ,it profiteth me nothing." I Corinthians 13:3
Okay...so what is "charity"?
"Charity suffereth long,and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vauneth not itself,is not puffed up (proud). Does not behave itself unseemly,seeketh not her own,is not easily provoked,thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth. Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things." I Corinthians 13:4-7
So, what is charity? Cieza, charity is "love in action".But as these verses explain, the MOTIVE behind doing good is of primary importance. So a religious humanist MUST make sure of their motive and reason for charity.
What is your motive?

Again, I may be "barking up the wrong tree". Perhaps you are a "secular humanist".
DEFINITION: Secular humanism is an ideology which espouses reason ,ethics ,and justice while SPECIFICALLY REJECTING SUPERNATURAL AND RELIGIOUS DOGMA AS A BASIS FOR MORALITY AND DECISION MAKING."
I sincerly hope you are not one of those. That would lead a thinking person to believe that the only reason you post on this site is to argue, or to "poke fun", or to attempt to convert some to humanism (Evangelistic Humanism? Oh, my!).
This is a very heavy verse, quoted here in love and humility, but it seems to be a Bible verse for the secular humanist:
"Therefore they say unto God' Depart from us ;for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? And what profit shall we have, if we pray unto Him?"Job 21:14-15

How very sad those verses are.
Once again,though, you may be an honest seeker.
"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Cieza, is God talking to you?

With Christian Love,
Julian of York

 

[Cieza]

No to all. So what? A question that would have some point to it, would be would you still love your neighbor? That one I would answer yes on.

It's very clear that your belief is conditional that you get into heaven. This means the purpose of your belief is no more than an insurance policy for you in the event that there is a heaven. The problem with this is if God is all-knowing, then he knows you only believe so you can ensure you go to heaven. Do you think he's going to want people like that going to heaven? Ask a seasoned Christian and I'm sure the answer you'll get is no.

 

[Cieza]

Well I find it hard to see how it could be proven that there is no heaven if God's existence hasn't been disproven. I'll assume its possible though.



If there was still reason for belief then I assume I would. Or do you mean would I still follow God if there was no eternal reward?

What I mean is would you still believe God exists if it were proven there was no eternal reward?

 

[Cieza]

Many Jewish people do not believe that there is an eternal life after this one or that heaven exists, yet they still remain faithful to God in the obedience of his commandments. You see have faith in God is not just about what happens when you die, it also affects what you do with your life now.

How is it an atheist can live his life with good morals without needing God's guidance, but a Christian can't?

 

[Cieza]

To me this is like saying would I believe in my mom if she kicked me out of her house for no reason. If I can't be with God someday-whats the point-heaven or somewhere else?

You're just like elman. Your belief is conditional upon you being granted eternal life. In other words, your belief is like having an insurance policy to ensure you are granted admission into heaven in the event there is a heaven. The problem with this is that God will know your belief isn't genuine and you are believing only as a ticket to get into heaven.

 

[Cieza]

Why are the questions always so negative, again let this be the important question:

What if it was proven that only pure love is real and everything outside of it is insane? What if this was common knowlage amongst humanity?

Its completely true but the problem is only one could prove this fact to themselves and faith is initally required. So the truth will never be accepted on a widespread scale which is the purpose of the apocalypse. The more that come to full understanding with the reality of things the more it will tip the scale so to speak.. and areas with no understanding will be destroyed and this will continue gradually until the true God reigns over the planet once and for all.

I asked four questions and you didn't answer a single one. They are all simple yes/no questions. How would it hurt you to answer each of the questions with either a yes or a no?

 

[Cieza]

There seems to be some confusion here. Your profile says that you are a "humanist". Other readers likely do not understand this concept, so please bear with me for a moment while I attempt to help those understand what humanism is.
DEFINITION: "As an ethical process, humanism does not consider metaphysical issues such as the existance of supernatural beings."
Hmmm...If you are a humanist, does this describe your beliefs? If so, why do you bother with our beliefs in the supernatural? Are you a backslidden humanist, who is questioning her non-beliefs in God?

I consider myself to be a secular humanist. See below.

Perhaps I have misinterpreted what you are saying. There is a line of thought called "religious humanism". Perhaps that is you.
DEFINITION: "Religious humanism attempts to fulfill the traditional social role of religion."
Hmmm...If you are a religious humanist, then you must be working for social justice, and understanding,and feeding and clothing the poor, and all of those good deeds.

It sounds like a religious humanist is one who "plays" church or pretends to be a Christian when they really aren't. Am I correct?

So, what is charity? Cieza, charity is "love in action".But as these verses explain, the MOTIVE behind doing good is of primary importance. So a religious humanist MUST make sure of their motive and reason for charity.
What is your motive?

My motive for doing good deeds? For loving someone or something? My motive for caring about my neighbor or not wanting innocent people of Haiti to suffer is probably tied into the herd instinct which CS Lewis talks about in Mere Christianity. I believe us humans get our moral values from watching others and learning from what we observe. There are probably also instinctive moral values that we are born with - for which no observations could change those.

Again, I may be "barking up the wrong tree". Perhaps you are a "secular humanist".
DEFINITION: Secular humanism is an ideology which espouses reason ,ethics ,and justice while SPECIFICALLY REJECTING SUPERNATURAL AND RELIGIOUS DOGMA AS A BASIS FOR MORALITY AND DECISION MAKING."
I sincerly hope you are not one of those. That would lead a thinking person to believe that the only reason you post on this site is to argue, or to "poke fun", or to attempt to convert some to humanism (Evangelistic Humanism? Oh, my!).

While I would consider myself a secular humanist, I'm not trying to poke fun at Christianity. I will admit, the persistent avoidance of direct questions which Christians exhibit is something I find outrageously humorous. If people answer my questions directly and to the point with sincere honesty, then I could engage them in intellectual dialog about Christianity. But avoid my questions and I'll only laugh behind your back.

This is a very heavy verse, quoted here in love and humility, but it seems to be a Bible verse for the secular humanist:
"Therefore they say unto God' Depart from us ;for we desire not the knowledge of thy ways.What is the Almighty, that we should serve Him? And what profit shall we have, if we pray unto Him?"Job 21:14-15

How very sad those verses are.
Once again,though, you may be an honest seeker.
"But without faith, it is impossible to please Him; for he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

Cieza, is God talking to you?

With Christian Love,
Julian of York

Ask God if he is talking to me. I don't know of any way to communicate with God. So perhaps you can ask him and relay his answer to me.

Yes, I am an honest seeker. But if God won't show me anything to suggest he exists, then he shouldn't expect me to find anything!

 

[joey_downunder]

If it were proven that there is no eternal life and no heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus died for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still maintain your personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still continue to read the Bible and/or go to church?

I would not believe. I won't follow a God who promises all those things who was/is proven to be a liar. I hate liars.

Now same questions reworded for you:
If it were proven that there IS eternal life and IS a heaven:
1) would you still believe that Jesus did not die for the sins of others?
2) would you still believe that there isn't is a fully omniscient & omnipotent God?
3) would you still ensure you had no personal relationship with God?
4) Would you still refuse to read the Bible and/or go to church?

 

[LOCO]

How is it an atheist can live his life with good morals without needing God's guidance, but a Christian can't?

Define 'good morals' for this particular atheist and where does his morals stem from?

Who decides for this atheist what is right/wrong behaviour? Is it the individual, the State or a collective?

Generally the atheist is a victim of moral relativism. S/he has no objective yardstick for which to measure what is true vs. false, at least in the moral realm. It is entirely based on their particular likes and dislikes. Little demi-gods!

True that most people anyway have to live according to some objective standards even those derived from moral absolutes. For instance, most people don't steal. Perhaps the fear is of being caught and punished by State authorities is what compels them, not an affront against God.

Blessings

 

[oi_antz]

Define 'good morals' for this particular atheist and where does his morals stem from?

Who decides for this atheist what is right/wrong behaviour? Is it the individual, the State or a collective?

Generally the atheist is a victim of moral relativism. S/he has no objective yardstick for which to measure what is true vs. false, at least in the moral realm. It is entirely based on their particular likes and dislikes. Little demi-gods!

True that most people anyway have to live according to some objective standards even those derived from moral absolutes. For instance, most people don't steal. Perhaps the fear is of being caught and punished by State authorities is what compels them, not an affront against God.

Blessings

Not everyone is motivated by fear of being caught. I for instance do not use my flatmate's coffee because I consider it immoral. I suspect that much morality would be a typical sentiment for an atheist just as much a Christian. However this is not to say everyone holds morality so rigidly, there are in fact people who steal their flatmates' coffee! Touching wood because our flat does not have thieving flatmates though some flats do.