Is Yeshua/Jesus necessary?

[Heber]

I agree with your assessment, Heber. My problem is that while many Christians and Messianics on this forum receive their opinions from "both the earlier and latter testaments", for Jews our opinion must be established on only the one testament. This means, I would expect the same voice to resonate through the Jewish texts if it were coming from God, and I've never heard that voice come from the Jewish Bible. Know what I mean?

Ah, but if one is not open to accept that G_d would do something like this then one would automatically 'crowd out' the voice that is speaking. The Jews who went into captivity were dumbstruck, it seems, that G_d would use their worse enemy to punish them. Although he spoke loud and clear the people could not see it because it was just so unlike G_d to do that to his own chosen people. In a sense it is the same in the reverse situation. The average Christian would not look to find Yeshua in the earlier testament (apart from, on the whole, those verses that point to Christmas or Easter) because they see what G_d did in the earlier testament just as irrelevant as some Jews see what he did in the latter testament.

Not sure if I've worded all that as clearly as my mind is thinking it but...

 

[ContraMundum]

I understand this from your perspective, of course. What I'm wondering is why God would even say that "it is the blood that makes atonement for your souls" if the blood of animals really could make no atonement at all. I guess what you're saying is something like the claim of Paul -- that these sacrifices were types and symbols. They were able to atone because they represented the later atonement that would be attained by Jesus' death. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, that is pretty much on the right path, but I would add that those sacrifices did more than just represent the atonement of the Cross, but had their effectiveness because of that atonement.

 

[Lulav]

You had to confess your sin to a priest before he could offer sacrifice for you.

Lev 5:5,6 ; 19:21,22 ; Num 5:5 cf. Jn 20:21-23

The actual idea of a "confessional booth", which is what you are asking for, is not found in the Temple for the obvious reason that the practice is older than the Temple (even found in Genesis), hence, you don't need a specific place to confess your sins.

I'm sorry CM, in not one of those references do I see the confession being made to the priest. I see the priest making the atonement for them as that was their job, but do not see taking confessions as part of it.

As I read it, the confession is to the one you sinned against, HaShem.

And if Yeshua is our atonement and that sacrifice has been made, why do you still need to go to a priest? They can't absolve you of sin.

 

[Lulav]

what do you think, I dont know him, you obviously do, you tell me


but God sent us his Son "Salvation" so I think he sent us salvation thru his son

I didnt hear God say anything about your cousin but its a great name hes got

what do you do with all the times in the tenakh where HaShem declares HE is our salvation?

What about the song of Moses sung to HaShem which says:

2 The L-RD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation ; my father's God, and I will exalt him.

As far as Joshua being the same, it isn't really. Joshua is from the Hebrew yod heh vav shin vav ayin and Yeshua is
yod shin vav ayin

This name is used over two dozen times in the tenakh for mostly names in the priestly families.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Is "salvation" based on believing that Jesus is the Saviour/Messiah?

No, it's not. At least not according to the Bible. That's a Christian "elitist" doctrine, and is unscriptural. Think about it for a second. Everyone who lived before Yeshua's time had no hope of salvation? All of G-d's chosen covenant people [the Jews] are not saved? This is the biggest lie in all of religion. Period.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

God is obviously working on your heart on this point. May you be like Jacob as you wrestle with Him...

Jacob wrestled with an angel, not HaShem.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Just to direct an answer toward these two things...

(1) You do not need to have kept Torah perfectly your whole life. If you turn to HaShem, he is able to forgive your sin as soon as you ask. He's merciful and good, and he'll turn to you. "Come let us reason together...."

(2) Blood is not a necessary part of the atonement. Leviticus 17:11 doesn't say that "you must have blood" but that "blood is the part of the animal that atones". It is not the kidneys. It's not the heart. It's not the liver. It's the blood. Why? Because the Torah says that the life-force of the animal is in the blood. But, blood isn't the only means of atonement, nor is it a necessary part of the process.

Blessings,
Yonah

I sure am glad your apart of this forum, Yonah. It's great to see the truth proclaimed by someone here. I really enjoy your posts...keep up the good work!


Shalom

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Hi dodari, I hope you are feeling a little better.

I would like to try and answer your question, from my understanding, so it will be quite simple

One of the things our church friends have asked in the past is "how did the people in the old testament get saved?"

My husband would always smile and say "they believed in Jesus."

"Well how can that be, because he wasnt even born yet?"

"They believed in the Messiah"

John 8v54
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Now the question becomes "Is Jesus the Messiah?"

Matthew 16v15
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God. Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven."

So the real question is all of this is - who do you say that Jesus is?

If you really want the correct answer, why not ask Yeshua himself how one inherits eternal life?....

(Mark 10:17-19 Complete Jewish Bible)
As he was starting on his way, a man ran up, kneeled down in front of him and asked, "Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?" Yeshua said to him, "Why are you calling me good? No one is good except God! You know the mitzvot -- `Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't give false testimony, don't defraud, honor your father and mother, . ."


If it was a requirement to believe that Yeshua is the Mashiakh for eternal life, wouldn't you think he would have told him that? Yet, Yeshua speaks not a word about that. He says to obey the Torah to inherit life eternal. Just like the Tanakh teaches.

 

[ContraMundum]

I'm sorry CM, in not one of those references do I see the confession being made to the priest. I see the priest making the atonement for them as that was their job, but do not see taking confessions as part of it.

Really? I can't agree. I thought it was rather obvious. So, you believe that a man made a private confession to no one in particular, then approached the priest and told him what to sacrifice????

The NT clarifies this. You are encouraged to confess "one to another".

I realise a lot of people have personal problems with admitting their guilt before men, especially those who are not accustomed to it or have a prejudice against institutions or whatever, but unless you confess your sins "one to another" (James 5:16) then under the Older Covenant no one would be able to make a sacrifice for you. I assure you that you could not interpret the texts in a light that leaves the priesthood at the mercy of the laity- he would always be in danger of making the wrong offering and would have to take your word for it.

As I read it, the confession is to the one you sinned against, HaShem.

...and God might hear your confession, but in the OT will direct you to a priest or another to intercede and/or offer sacrifice for you. Consider the stories of Abraham and Abimelech, Job and his three friends and so forth. God did not accept their prayers or offerings. Other had to do it for them, according to God's direction and ordinance.

And if Yeshua is our atonement and that sacrifice has been made, why do you still need to go to a priest?

A High Priest has priests under him. Jesus is the High Priest, and His people are a royal priesthood. There are those from among that priesthood who are called by God and the people to the office of the presbytery or episcopate to function as the public figure of the priesthood of all, and thus are called to also pronounce God's absolution to repentant sinners. Those same people (the Church's ministry) can hear a confession privately (or publically) in order to declare God's absolution (through the Gospel) to the confessing sinner. The rule for private sacramental confession is "all may, none must, some should".

They can't absolve you of sin.

I think the Jn 20 citation pretty much knocks that on the head. How do you understand the term "absolve"? We may be talking about different things.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

A High Priest has priests under him. Jesus is the High Priest, and His people are a royal priesthood.

And just who are his people, exactly?

 

[ContraMundum]

And just who are his people, exactly?

Whoever He chooses to be. Christians believe the NT scriptures and what they teach about that. I'm sure you, as a non-Christian, are ready to tell us all how we are wrong.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Whoever He chooses to be. Christians believe the NT scriptures and what they teach about that. I'm sure you, as a non-Christian, are ready to tell us all how we are wrong.

Naaah, I'm finished with combative posts over here. And what do you mean "we" this is a Messianic board, not Christian, or have you forgotten? I was merely asking you a simple question is all. Your answer is really vague, but hey, if that's the best you've got, then so be it.

 

[ContraMundum]

Naaah, I'm finished with combative posts over here. And what do you mean "we" this is a Messianic board, not Christian, or have you forgotten? I was merely asking you a simple question is all. Your answer is really vague, but hey, if that's the best you've got, then so be it.

My answers to you are always deliberately vague, because I don't think you really are interested in my opinion or really want to discuss my beliefs with any respect.

 

[visionary]

My answers to you are always deliberately vague, because I don't think you really are interested in my opinion or really want to discuss my beliefs with any respect.

Deliberate vagueness is his evasiveness when clarity will reveal ... more than he wants us to see where he is coming from.

 

[ContraMundum]

Deliberate vagueness is his evasiveness when clarity will reveal ... more than he wants us to see where he is coming from.

That's quite vague.

 

[visionary]

I learned that from you...

 

[Lulav]

Whoever He chooses to be. Christians believe the NT scriptures and what they teach about that. I'm sure you, as a non-Christian, are ready to tell us all how we are wrong.

He chooses us, we don't choose him? Then why did he give us a choice all these millennium?

 

[ContraMundum]

I learned that from you...

Thank you...I have learned many things from you too.

 

[ContraMundum]

He chooses us, we don't choose him? Then why did he give us a choice all these millennium?

I don't think it's that simple. Another topic, another time.

 

[Lulav]

I think it's pertinent to the discussion, is Yeshua necessary. Do we choose him or does HaShem make that decision for us?