Is Yeshua G-d?

[Talmidah]

At one time, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of Messianic belief. I've gotten some confusing statements regarding this from a couple of Messianics recently. Just asking the question to get a consensus of the opinions of the people here.

Are there Messianics who believe that Yeshua was a man, not deity, not part of the Godhead/Trinity, who was simply trying to point people to Hashem and Torah observance?

Thank you

 

[Henaynei]

it is not true that the only 2 potions are that Yeshua was only a man or that He is part of a tribunal called the "godhead." There is at least a third option

 

[Talmidah]

it is not true that the only 2 potions are that Yeshua was only a man or that He is part of a tribunal called the "godhead." There is at least a third option

Hi Henaynei ,
I should have been clearer. I didn't mean to imply that those are the only two questions. I was just really curious about the ones I asked, and I'm interested in finding out about other beliefs or options as well. I'm just trying to grasp a better understanding of where Messianics stand on this.

 

[Henaynei]

because:

1) to date most Messianics, Jewish and Gentile, have come from the Church
2) most are ignorant of any "orthodox" teaching other than that of the Church on this matter
3) folks are often very resistant to changing or of being seen as different and risking rejection

it is true that most of MJism believes that G-d is composed of three distinct individuals.... but

there are a growing number of brave and dedicated MJs who believe the Shema, period.

There are also some who have been led astray because they could not reconcile the Shema with the Trinity. They have been "cut of the herd" by anti-missionaries who dazzle them with the kind of Judaica these honest and earnest souls hunger for. These they teach that Yeshua was just another man, out the long line of those who failed to really be the True Messiah.

 

[Talmidah]

because:

1) to date most Messianics, Jewish and Gentile, have come from the Church
2) most are ignorant of any "orthodox" teaching other than that of the Church on this matter
3) folks are often very resistant to changing or of being seen as different and risking rejection

it is true that most of MJism believes that G-d is composed of three distinct individuals.... but

there are a growing number of brave and dedicated MJs who believe the Shema, period.

As I said, I'm interested in learning the opinions of whichever Messianics choose to post, whatever their belief

There are also some who have been led astray because they could not reconcile the Shema with the Trinity. They have been "cut of the herd" by anti-missionaries who dazzle them with the kind of Judaica these honest and earnest souls hunger for. These they teach that Yeshua was just another man, out the long line of those who failed to really be the True Messiah.

Do you (general you, not just Henaynei) believe that every Messianic who eventually left 'the herd' was led astray and dazzled by Judaica?

 

[CovenantRay]

Shalom Mishbocha:

[Legalistic Premable about this being solely MY opinion and I speak for no other goes HERE]

In this Jewish Believer's experience and understanding, Y'shua was pre-existant, is eternal, emptied Himself to come to earth as a man. He came to preach about HaShem and His Kingdom and in a fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies, paid the covenant price for our inability to keep that covenant.

Y'shua never "technically" claimed to be HaShem, yet He did things only He could do, and never denied it. He did call himself the same "I AM" as the voice of the burning bush, forgave sins. When asked by Pilate, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "So you say."

My response is not intended to be an Apologetic, nor an Evangelistic one. Rather, this is MY opinion.

Y'shua is the Messiah of the Jews. He is who He claimed to be. To say that He was merely a "good man" or "good rabbi" or a "prophet", is incorrect and is addressed by Y'shua Himself in the New Testament. Either He is who He claimed to be or a liar or a lunatic.

I find Him to be truthful in all things, neither a liar nor a lunatic.

He revealed Himself to me after a year of intense prayer. Someday I may share that with you all.

Shabat Shalom,

CovenantRay

 

[Wags]

At one time, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of Messianic belief. I've gotten some confusing statements regarding this from a couple of Messianics recently. Just asking the question to get a consensus of the opinions of the people here.

Are there Messianics who believe that Yeshua was a man, not deity, not part of the Godhead/Trinity, who was simply trying to point people to Hashem and Torah observance?

Thank you

It would be nice to be able to discuss this topic amongst ourselves, but alas I think that would be a violation of the rules. And it could result in people being asked to relinquish the messianic icon.

I did come across some intersting reading just this afternoon on this topic, haven't had time to study it all out (that could take awhile), but at first blush there is much food for thought. You can check it out here.

 

[plum]

Shalom Mishbocha:

[Legalistic Premable about this being solely MY opinion and I speak for no other goes HERE]

In this Jewish Believer's experience and understanding, Y'shua was pre-existant, is eternal, emptied Himself to come to earth as a man. He came to preach about HaShem and His Kingdom and in a fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies, paid the covenant price for our inability to keep that covenant.

Y'shua never "technically" claimed to be HaShem, yet He did things only He could do, and never denied it. He did call himself the same "I AM" as the voice of the burning bush, forgave sins. When asked by Pilate, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "So you say."

My response is not intended to be an Apologetic, nor an Evangelistic one. Rather, this is MY opinion.

Y'shua is the Messiah of the Jews. He is who He claimed to be. To say that He was merely a "good man" or "good rabbi" or a "prophet", is incorrect and is addressed by Y'shua Himself in the New Testament. Either He is who He claimed to be or a liar or a lunatic.

I find Him to be truthful in all things, neither a liar nor a lunatic.

He revealed Himself to me after a year of intense prayer. Someday I may share that with you all.

Shabat Shalom,

CovenantRay

what he said.

 

[Tishri1]

The more I study Judiasm and it's take on the Messiah, the more I see My Yeshua...I truly Believe He is who He, and his Disciples,and G-d,says he is!

 

[Bon]

Shalom Mishbocha:

[Legalistic Premable about this being solely MY opinion and I speak for no other goes HERE]

In this Jewish Believer's experience and understanding, Y'shua was pre-existant, is eternal, emptied Himself to come to earth as a man. He came to preach about HaShem and His Kingdom and in a fulfillment of hundreds of prophecies, paid the covenant price for our inability to keep that covenant.

Y'shua never "technically" claimed to be HaShem, yet He did things only He could do, and never denied it. He did call himself the same "I AM" as the voice of the burning bush, forgave sins. When asked by Pilate, "Are you the King of the Jews?" He answered him, "So you say."

My response is not intended to be an Apologetic, nor an Evangelistic one. Rather, this is MY opinion.

Y'shua is the Messiah of the Jews. He is who He claimed to be. To say that He was merely a "good man" or "good rabbi" or a "prophet", is incorrect and is addressed by Y'shua Himself in the New Testament. Either He is who He claimed to be or a liar or a lunatic.

I find Him to be truthful in all things, neither a liar nor a lunatic.

I am in agreeance with Ray also.

He revealed Himself to me after a year of intense prayer. Someday I may share that with you all.

Shabat Shalom,

CovenantRay

Oh would you Ray?

Talmidah....can I ask you a question?
Hopefully one that you can easily answer.

What is your take on the plurality of "ELOHIM"?

Thanks... Bon

 

[DavidHaCohen]

Can I answer that one?
We Jews believe it to be a case of majestic plural, intended to differenciate between the True G-d of Israel and pagan deites also called "El".

Plural forms in semitic tongues in order to express superiority is not uncommon. Ba'al, for instance, is a plural form, but that doesn't mean the pagan deity Ba'al is a trinity.

Dave

What is your take on the plurality of "ELOHIM"?

Thanks... Bon

 

[Bon]

Can I answer that one?
We Jews believe it to be a case of majestic plural, intended to differenciate between the True G-d of Israel and pagan deites also called "El".

Plural forms in semitic tongues in order to express superiority is not uncommon. Ba'al, for instance, is a plural form, but that doesn't mean the pagan deity Ba'al is a trinity.

Dave

Ah! yes, I've heard that.

I have another question......?

The Jews have been, and still await 'their' Messiah. Who and what are you (the Jews) expecting in your Messiah?

Is he a man, a deity, an angel?
What is his relationship with G-d?

What scriptures point towards him?

Is this the Messiah for all nations or for the Jews only?

Thanks

Bon

 

[Henaynei]

As I said, I'm interested in learning the opinions of whichever Messianics choose to post, whatever their belief


Do you (general you, not just Henaynei) believe that every Messianic who eventually left 'the herd' was led astray and dazzled by Judaica?

please don't misunderstand me - the fault is with the one who sought after the esoterica of Judaism rather than a relationship and understanding of HaShem...

Sometimes folks get more focused on practice and esoteric knowledge of Judaism than on the Truth of Judaism - those are the ones most easily "dazzled" because their anchor is weak....

there is a rabbinic midrash about this:

A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed, some seed fell alongside the path; and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky patches where there was not much soil. It sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow; but when the sun had risen, the young plants were scorched; and since their roots were not deep, they dried up. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. But others fell into rich soil and produced grain, a hundred or sixty or thirty times as much as had been sown.

"So listen to what the parable of the sower means. Whoever hears the message about the Kingdom, but doesn't understand it, is like the seed sown along the path -- the Evil One comes and seizes what was sown in his heart. The seed sown on rocky ground is like a person who hears the message and accepts it with joy at once, but has no root in himself. So he stays on for a while; but as soon as some trouble or persecution arises on account of the message, he immediately falls away. Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. However, what was sown on rich soil is the one who hears the message and understands it; such a person will surely bear fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirty times what was sown."

so it is with people - we let the distractions, the thorns of the world or a particular system of worship, choke our view of "the Sun" HaShem and stunt, misdirect or stop our growth....

fact is we ALL are at risk for being one of these "seeds" at various time of our life.... it is our task to make sure we are putting G-d, and not just the things of G-d, first and central in our lives....

 

[Yovel]

there is a rabbinic midrash about this:

A farmer went out to sow his seed. As he sowed, some seed fell alongside the path; and the birds came and ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky patches where there was not much soil. It sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow; but when the sun had risen, the young plants were scorched; and since their roots were not deep, they dried up. Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. But others fell into rich soil and produced grain, a hundred or sixty or thirty times as much as had been sown.

"So listen to what the parable of the sower means. Whoever hears the message about the Kingdom, but doesn't understand it, is like the seed sown along the path -- the Evil One comes and seizes what was sown in his heart. The seed sown on rocky ground is like a person who hears the message and accepts it with joy at once, but has no root in himself. So he stays on for a while; but as soon as some trouble or persecution arises on account of the message, he immediately falls away. Now the seed sown among thorns stands for someone who hears the message, but it is choked by the worries of the world and the deceitful glamor of wealth, so that it produces nothing. However, what was sown on rich soil is the one who hears the message and understands it; such a person will surely bear fruit, a hundred or sixty or thirty times what was sown."

so it is with people - we let the distractions, the thorns of the world or a particular system of worship, choke our view of "the Sun" HaShem and stunt, misdirect or stop our growth....

fact is we ALL are at risk for being one of these "seeds" at various time of our life.... it is our task to make sure we are putting G-d, and not just the things of G-d, first and central in our lives....

I agree. A lot of people are distracted by different views because they don't really have a true relationship with HaShem. If we have a great relationship with HaShem we will go by what His word says not what others say or believe.

Relationship, Relationship, Relationship is the only way to get to know HaShem.

 

[jgonz]

I agree. A lot of people are distracted by different views because they don't really have a true relationship with HaShem. If we have a great relationship with HaShem we will go by what His word says not what others say or believe.

Relationship, Relationship, Relationship is the only way to get to know HaShem.

Exactly. The same problem exists within Christianity (or pick a religion). People get caught up in the outside stuff and forget the relationship with the L-rd.

 

[CovenantRay]

I am in agreeance with Ray also.



Oh would you Ray?

Talmidah....can I ask you a question?
Hopefully one that you can easily answer.

What is your take on the plurality of "ELOHIM"?

Thanks... Bon

Dear Bon:

It is my intention to do so at some point, but it will take some time, thought and prayer. It is easy for me to share my faith, however it is not so easy to share my intensely personal revelation. Please be patient.

I have a slightly different slant on the "plurality of Elohim", if I may. I was taught by my Rabbi at my conservative synagogue that this signifies royalty, similar to what the queen of England might say, i.e., e.g.: "We would be delighted" when referring to herself.

Please don't misunderstand me, I am not comparing Elohim to the queen of England! Only the concept of the royal/regal use of plurality.

As previously pointed out, by DavidHaCohen, there are other uses of this construct.

Todah,

CovenantRay

 

[plum]

i think the personal difficulty comes when we think the more outward details of a practice are what makes the relationship aspect happen.

 

[hlaltimus]

At one time, I thought I had a pretty good understanding of Messianic belief. I've gotten some confusing statements regarding this from a couple of Messianics recently. Just asking the question to get a consensus of the opinions of the people here.

Are there Messianics who believe that Yeshua was a man, not deity, not part of the Godhead/Trinity, who was simply trying to point people to Hashem and Torah observance?

Thank you

You can quickly answer the initial question as to whether Yeshua was divine. If He wasn't, then how did He survive the tomb? If He wasn't a true man then He couldn't have fulfilled the moral law vicariously for men and women which was given to them and not to angels. If He wasn't God, then He had a big, big problem in coming out of the bowels of the Earth after His death. He had to be both.

 

[Talmidah]

You can quickly answer the initial question as to whether Yeshua was divine. If He wasn't, then how did He survive the tomb? If He wasn't a true man then He couldn't have fulfilled the moral law vicariously for men and women which was given to them and not to angels. If He wasn't God, then He had a big, big problem in coming out of the bowels of the Earth after His death. He had to be both.

Hi hlaltimus
Thank you for your answer...yes, I'm very familiar with this line of thought. The reason I posted in this particular forum is that I wanted to get the thoughts of the Messianics.