Is Wisdom Greater Than Love?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Yeah, I guess that's true if we sometimes abide and sometimes don't.

God does not give us the choice to sometimes abide and sometimes don't.

His Word in full and often refers to abiding in Him as in sticking with Him through pain and sorrow, as well as joy and good times, never letting anything cause us to depart from Him.

Like being married, but even more / stronger bonds with Him than even marriage, and never having the option of leaving Him not even for a moment, as far as any willing choice on our part as if to leave Him - also shown in the lives of the ekklesia in the NT - living every day in union with Jesus. Not one day on, one day off, nor even one hour nor even one minute away from His Presence.

 

[spockrates]

God does not give us the choice to sometimes abide and sometimes don't.

His Word in full and often refers to abiding in Him as in sticking with Him through pain and sorrow, as well as joy and good times, never letting anything cause us to depart from Him.

Like being married, but even more / stronger bonds with Him than even marriage, and never having the option of leaving Him not even for a moment, as far as any willing choice on our part as if to leave Him - also shown in the lives of the ekklesia in the NT - living every day in union with Jesus. Not one day on, one day off, nor even one hour nor even one minute away from His Presence.

Yeah, no. You said:

When we abide in JESUS, everything we do , think, speak, and hope for is in God's Love and His Wisdom, same as JESUS Lived ALWAYS.
​

You sin. So did you mean instead to say this? "When we abide in Jesus...not everything we do...is in God's love and wisdom... ."

Or are you saying you don't sin?

 

[Galatea]

So glad you could make it, Galatea! I enjoy our conversations. How's it going?



Not sure how the thing that begins is the same as the thing it begins. A woman raises a starter pistol and pulls the trigger. The runners hear the shot and run. The shot isn't the same as the race, it merely begins (is the cause of) the race. So is our fear of God before we become Christians wisdom, or is this fear merely what begins (or causes us to seek) wisdom?



That's wise indeed!



You touched on something important to understanding this topic, I think. John writes, "God is love". Paul writes, "Christ Jesus...is made unto us wisdom". Does this mean the Son of God is both Love and Wisdom?



Previous question answered! Yes, I think you must be right.



So this discussion may end sooner than I expected. God is Love and Wisdom - whether symbolically or literally, I don't know, but that's OK. So when Solomon writes of Wisdom: "Nothing you desire compares with her," he might be saying, "Nothing you desire compares with God."

I find it interesting that even non-biblical characters agree. For Plato writes that his mentor Socrates said, "I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess wisdom, which I find wanting in others. But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing." (Apology 23)

* * *

I guess the only question left to answer is this: Is it possible for one trait of God to be greater than another trait of God? Is it possible the Love that God is, is greater than the Wisdom that God is? Or are they, as you say equally great?

(Let me know if you come up with any other reasons why this isn't a possibility, as I'm not yet sure it's impossible. I'll also give it some thought and see if any Wisdom comes to me.)

It's going, lol. I have enjoyed these threads. Thanks for posting.

Yes, I believe all persons of the trinity share all the attributes. They don't have the same offices, but the same attributes.

Since God is perfect, He is not out of proportion, unlike us. People can be just, but not loving, loving but not wise. God has all the attributes in fullness- total love, yet total holiness, total justice, yet total mercy. He is not imbalanced.

This is my interpretation of the nature of God from Scripture. In Him we find no fault, therefore He would not be lacking in one attribute while over represented in another.

 

[spockrates]

It's going, lol. I have enjoyed these threads. Thanks for posting.

Yes, I believe all persons of the trinity share all the attributes. They don't have the same offices, but the same attributes.

Since God is perfect, He is not out of proportion, unlike us. People can be just, but not loving, loving but not wise. God has all the attributes in fullness- total love, yet total holiness, total justice, yet total mercy. He is not imbalanced.

This is my interpretation of the nature of God from Scripture. In Him we find no fault, therefore He would not be lacking in one attribute while over represented in another.

Wisely said! Most Christians tell me God is always wise and always loving, and they don't know what to say when I ask if sending someone to hell is an act of love. For it seems to me it might be a way of loving those in heaven by keeping them separate from certain people (like a shepherd keeping a wolf out of the sheep pen) but it's not loving to the one banished, unless hell isn't as horrifying as it's made out to be. Such eternal separation is just and wise but not loving toward those separated, I believe. Do you believe the same?

If you're not sure, will you give an example of what you had in mind when you said God isn't always loving?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Most Christians tell me God is always wise and always loving, and they don't know what to say when I ask if sending someone to hell is an act of love.

< shrugs >
That reveals a lot about them, doesn't it ?

God's Word , written, clearly describes the consequences of sin, for all mankind,
as
well as God's Only Way to be saved from death.

 

[spockrates]

< shrugs >
That reveals a lot about them, doesn't it ?

God's Word , written, clearly describes the consequences of sin, for all mankind,
as
well as God's Only Way to be saved from death.

Well, to me, it's sometimes clear as mud. But that's a topic for another time.

 

[Galatea]

Wisely said! Most Christians tell me God is always wise and always loving, and they don't know what to say when I ask if sending someone to hell is an act of love. For it seems to me it might be a way of loving those in heaven by keeping them separate from certain people (like a shepherd keeping a wolf out of the sheep pen) but it's not loving to the one banished, unless hell isn't as horrifying as it's made out to be. Such eternal separation is just and wise but not loving toward those separated, I believe. Do you believe the same?

If you're not sure, will you give an example of what you had in mind when you said God isn't always loving?

I did not say God is not always loving. He is always loving, yet always just. He is not only love- but also holiness and justice.

God does not send people to Hell. People choose justice over mercy. God wants to extend mercy to all, but some don't want to accept mercy on God's terms. They chhose to be judged on the merits of their works- condemned by their hubris, thinking they are good enough to make it to Heaven on their own.

I believe, very firmly, that God loves people who condemn themselves to Hell.

 

[spockrates]

I did not say God is not always loving. He is always loving, yet always just. He is not only love- but also holiness and justice.

God does not send people to Hell. People choose justice over mercy. God wants to extend mercy to all, but some don't want to accept mercy on God's terms. They chhose to be judged on the merits of their works- condemned by their hubris, thinking they are good enough to make it to Heaven on their own.

I believe, very firmly, that God loves people who condemn themselves to Hell.

Sorry for the delay, sorry for misunderstanding and thanks for the reply.

My thought is this: Imagine if God abolished hell so it no longer existed and allowed everyone into heaven who wanted to go there, without requiring anyone to change their behavior. Then it would be:

1. Loving toward those who escaped hell (since it's loving to alleviate suffering and show mercy). As Paul tells us: "love is kind...it keeps no record of wrongs," (1 Corinthians 13:4-5).
2. Unloving to those who were already in heaven (since it's unloving to not protect the innocent from the sinful behavior of those who escaped hell yet refused to repent). As Paul tells us: "[Love] always protects..." (1 Corinthians 13:7).

In effect, it would be keeping the status quo. The situation we live in on earth would continue in heaven, which isn't for many something to look forward to. This would most certainly be unwise of God and against God's nature.

So it's a win-lose situation. With hell, the damned are unloved, but those in heaven are loved. No hell, people in heaven are unloved, but those who escape hell are loved. Yet damnation, though unloving to some, is wise, because it's just. Perhaps some people leave God with no wise choice but to withhold love from them, I think.

* * *

I mean, I can see those who will be damned are being loved now, for they have every opportunity to change their minds and destinations. But how are the damned loved once they find themselves in hell?

 

[spockrates]

@Galatea: So should we say this? "Yes, Paul, Love is the most excellent way! But sadly, sometimes people give God no choice but to resort to the less excellent way of justice."

But then I think, "Spockrates, think what you're saying! Can any way of God not be the most excellent?"

Maybe, then the truth is that Love is the most excellent of ways when appropriate, but justice is also just as excellent when appropriate, for both are excellently wise?

 

[Galatea]

@Galatea: So should we say this? "Yes, Paul, Love is the most excellent way! But sadly, sometimes people give God no choice but to resort to the less excellent way of justice."

But then I think, "Spockrates, think what you're saying! Can any way of God not be the most excellent?"

Maybe, then the truth is that Love is the most excellent of ways when appropriate, but justice is also just as excellent when appropriate, for both are excellently wise?

God does all things well. If we turn our backs on His mercy, we are choosing His justice.

But it is all meted out in love, whether He is meteing out mercy or justice. I firmly believe God loves every human that ever was, only many don't love Him- and what is worse, they don't think He loves them.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. I know the Bible says that God hates evildoers, but He died for them and would save them. So, He hates and loves simultaneously.

This is my understanding of the nature of God.

 

[Galatea]

Sorry for the delay, sorry for misunderstanding and thanks for the reply.

My thought is this: Imagine if God abolished hell so it no longer existed and allowed everyone into heaven who wanted to go there, without requiring anyone to change their behavior. Then it would be:

1. Loving toward those who escaped hell (since it's loving to alleviate suffering and show mercy). As Paul tells us: "love is kind...it keeps no record of wrongs," (1 Corinthians 13:4-5).
2. Unloving to those who were already in heaven (since it's unloving to not protect the innocent from the sinful behavior of those who escaped hell yet refused to repent). As Paul tells us: "[Love] always protects..." (1 Corinthians 13:7).

In effect, it would be keeping the status quo. The situation we live in on earth would continue in heaven, which isn't for many something to look forward to. This would most certainly be unwise of God and against God's nature.

So it's a win-lose situation. With hell, the damned are unloved, but those in heaven are loved. No hell, people in heaven are unloved, but those who escape hell are loved. Yet damnation, though unloving to some, is wise, because it's just. Perhaps some people leave God with no wise choice but to withhold love from them, I think.

* * *

I mean, I can see those who will be damned are being loved now, for they have every opportunity to change their minds and destinations. But how are the damned loved once they find themselves in hell?

It is alright, about the delay.

I don't believe Christians change their behavior- that would be a works salvation. I believe repenting is not a change of behavior but rather a change in belief- the agreeing with God that you are helpless and hopeless and can not lift one finger to aid salvation.

People change their behaviors after salvation because they seek to please God and because they love Him.

The thief on the cross could not change any of his criminal behaviors or tendencies, but he changed belief.

It is God that makes us new creatures in Christ, and not we ourselves.

I think God very much loves people in Hell.

 

[Jezmeyah]

Thought it might be interesting to discuss what biblical evidence there is to support the premises that Wisdom or Love is the greater virtue. The idea was born after comparing this biblical passage,

1 Corinthians 13:13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.​

with this one,

Proverbs 3:13-15 Blessed are those who find wisdom, those who gain understanding, for she is more profitable than silver and yields better returns than gold. She is more precious than rubies; nothing you desire can compare with her.​

In Col.1:9-10 wisdom and understanding are mentioned, having importance so as to walk worthy of the Lord.

Taken at face value, the first passage asserts Love is greater than Faith and Hope, but it doesn't say it's greater than all virtues.

Neither does that verse list all virtues. So your train of thought has jumped the tracks.

None of the other virtues can function without those three main ones.

The second passage, however says there's nothing I desire that compares with Wisdom. Since I want both God's wisdom and love, the inference is Wisdom is the greater of the two.

While love is imparted within the innerman, Wisdom is not a virtue sourced within the inner man.

Wisdom must be found and developed and utilized.

Now I'm willing to admit I'm wrong, and won't be offended if anyone proves me so. I'm more interested it obtaining wisdom about Wisdom and Love than proving anything to anyone, except maybe to myself!

​

The faith, hope and love are attributes implanted into the Christian at the new birth.

The greatest is love, the prime nature of God. In Galatians it lists the attributes of the innerman, the first mentioned is love. That's not a random occurrence. All of the subsequent virtues spring out of that love.

Wisdom is not in that list.

Wisdom however is not an implanted virtue, it is a cultivated one. As is the virtue of faith (along with all others) intended to be developed.

With faith you find wisdom from God that you desire. With faith you hold onto that wisdom and with understanding learn how to apply it correctly. All the while acknowledging that Love has provided all virtues and desire for God's wisdom to you.

It's not about which is more important. It's wisdom to realize that God is the source of all therefore they all function together and have equal importance.