Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[TheSeabass]

No one could be baptized into John's baptism


That's what the end of acts 18 and beginning of acts 19 was trying to clear up

There were many people baptized with John's baptism, Mark 1:5

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, the NT law was not yet in effect at that time.

Mark 1:4 says John's baptism was for the remission of sins, yet Hebrews 9:22 says "...without shedding of blood is no remission." So how could John's baptism remit sins BEFORE Christ shed His blood? It would remit sins in promise, those baptized with John's baptism would have their sins remitted looking forward to the time Christ would shed His blood. John's baptism was "unto repentance" Matthew 3:11 meaning those baptized with Johns baptism had to maintain a repentant life looking towards Christ shedding His blood so their sins would be remitted. If they did not maintain a repent life style then their sins would not be remitted when Christ shed His blood.


Christ's baptism eventually replaced John's baptism as how one is born again.

The dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus has nothing to do with John's baptism. There is no evidence to support such. The 'born again' or 'born from above' was directly linked by Christ to Him being lifted up.

John 3: KJV

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Nothing about John's baptism mentioned. Jesus was pointing out TaNaKh (OT) Scriptures Nicodemus would know and which speaks of the New Covenant promised:

Ezekiel 36: KJV

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jeremiah 31: KJV

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:


33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

 

[redleghunter]

Hebrews 11 tells me of those OT characters that had an obedient faith.

A faith that looked to Messiah.

 

[MarysSon]

Except when it isn't...Enoch. Elijah. Abraham and Lazarus (in the parable), The "good thief". Sinless babies. And of course the Catholic doctrine of Baptism of desire.

We should rather say that water baptism is the SURE way, the pointed-out-path. MAYBE God will save an individual anyway - it's all ultimately in God's hands - but if we listen to the shepherd we won't test the theory on ourselves.

Water Baptism is the normative way.
God can and DOES make exceptions, as in the cases you presented. HOWEVER, you should never formulate doctrines based on the exception.

The plain fact is that you cannot claim to have faith - then refuse to be Baptized and expect to be saved.

 

[TheSeabass]

Christ did NOT have to be baptized

And. HE did not receive the HOLY SPIRIT after HE was water baptuzed

HE already was HOLY and the full manifestation of THE FATHER


Too many overlook that John was told that the ONE whom he would see THE SPIRIT upon is THE ONE who would baptize with the HOLY SPIRIT and with fire

John received THAT SIGN of who CHRIST was before he baptized HIM

Why do you think John deterred from baptizing HIM and said, you come to me? I need to be baptized by YOU!

I never said anything about Christ being baptized, so I do not know what your point here is suppose to be.

But as far as Christ being baptized, He was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness" Matthew 3:15.
Psa 119:172 all of God's commandments are righteousness. Therefore Christ was baptized in order to obey-fulfill the will of God. Had He not been baptized that would have been unrighteousness, disobedience to the commands of God. Therefore Christ had to be baptized, not because He had sin that needed to be remitted, but in order to fulfill all righteousness...Christ came to earth to do the will of God Hebrews 10:5-7.

 

[MarysSon]

Pope Peter was teaching eternal assurance :

1 Peter 1: NKJV

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Peter is telling his readers that your reward cannot be taken away - UNLESS we lose faith. This is why he ALSO said the following:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[TheSeabass]

The dialogue between Jesus and Nicodemus has nothing to do with John's baptism. There is no evidence to support such. The 'born again' or 'born from above' was directly linked by Christ to Him being lifted up.

John 3: KJV

3 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.


12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:


15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Nothing about John's baptism mentioned. Jesus was pointing out TaNaKh (OT) Scriptures Nicodemus would know and which speaks of the New Covenant promised:

Ezekiel 36: KJV

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.


25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.


26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jeremiah 31: KJV

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:


32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:


33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

If being born again had nothing to do with John's baptism, then how was Nicodemus to be born again?

I know for a fact that this new birth included the element of "water" and I see John using that element in John 3:22-23.

 

[TheSeabass]

A faith that looked to Messiah.

An obedient faith, not a faith only.

 

[redleghunter]

If John's baptism was NOT how one was to be born again, then how was Nicodemus to be born again?

Holy Spirit. Just like us.

 

[TheSeabass]

Holy Spirit. Just like us.

Jesus said born of spirit and OF WATER.

By NO COINCIDENCE just a few verses later "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

"Water" of Jn 3:5 = "water" of Jn 3:22,23.

 

[redleghunter]

Peter is telling his readers that your reward cannot be taken away - UNLESS we lose faith. This is why he ALSO said the following:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.

For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.

Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter chapter 2 is about false teachers. It is always important to understand not only the audience (churched Christians) but the subject of the discussion:

2 Peter 2: KJV

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.


3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.


4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;


7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:


8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds


9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:


10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.


11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.


12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;


14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:


15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;


16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.


17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.


18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.


19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.


20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.


21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The closest you can come to the above as 'losing salvation' is fully conscious apostasy.

1 John 2: KJV

18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.


19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.


21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.


22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.


25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

[TheSeabass]

<staff edit>


John's baptism is how men, as Nicodemus, were to be born again John 3:5 cf John 3:22-23. But John's baptism was later replaced by Christ's baptism of the great commission Matt 28:19,20; Mk 16:16 at Pentecost in Acts 2:38 as how men are born again.
Those in Acts 19 (see also Acts 18:25-26) had been baptized with John's baptism after it had expired and was no longer in effect, therefore needed to be baptized with Christ's baptism (Acts 19:5) which was in effect at that time. In Acts 19:5 this baptism " in the name of the Lord Jesus" is the same water baptism "in the name of the Lord" commanded to the Gentiles back in Acts 10:47-48. (John's baptism was not 'in the name of the Lord.")

 

[miknik5]

John's baptism is how men, as Nicodemus, were to be born again John 3:5 cf John 3:22-23. But John's baptism was later replaced by Christ's baptism of the great commission Matt 28:19,20; Mk 16:16 at Pentecost in Acts 2:38 as how men are born again.
Those in Acts 19 (see also Acts 18:25-26) had been baptized with John's baptism after it had expired and was no longer in effect, therefore needed to be baptized with Christ's baptism (Acts 19:5) which was in effect at that time. In Acts 19:5 this baptism " in the name of the Lord Jesus" is the same water baptism "in the name of the Lord" commanded to the Gentiles back in Acts 10:47-48. (John's baptism was not 'in the name of the Lord.")

No
John can't baptize anyone into himself nor can anyone be born again in John

John was a temporary light and witness to CHRIST

His work was just what he said it was

"A voice in the wilderness.....

 

[miknik5]

And
Not only that
John wasn't even born again
He might have been the greatest BORN OF WOMAN, yes

The HOLY SPIRIT had not yet been given

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus said born of spirit and OF WATER.

By NO COINCIDENCE just a few verses later "After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

"Water" of Jn 3:5 = "water" of Jn 3:22,23.

Yes. What type of purification would Nicodemus the teacher of Israel know. He would know the TaNaKh. He would have no idea what Christian baptism is about. The apostles did not until Pentecost.

That is why I posted Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31. Jesus was teaching, actually revealing in terms Nicodemus should have known (OT) the New Covenant fulfilled in Him Christ Jesus.

If you look at the passages I posted from Ezekiel 36, God says he will sprinkle clean water on us. Is that literally God saying 'I will institute baptism.' No, I don't think so. It was an OT fact, washing was instituted in Mosaic law to become clean from a physical impurity or defilement. The metaphor of 'sprinkle clean water' in Ezekiel is directly related to a 'new heart' and 'new spirit.'

What washes away our sin in the New Covenant? Put another way....What is poured out for the remission of our sins in the New Covenant? How are we cleansed?

 

[miknik5]

Yes. What type of purification would Nicodemus the teacher of Israel know. He would know the TaNaKh. He would have no idea what Christian baptism is about. The apostles did not until Pentecost.

That is why I posted Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31. Jesus was teaching, actually revealing in terms Nicodemus should have known (OT) the New Covenant fulfilled in Him Christ Jesus.

If you look at the passages I posted from Ezekiel 36, God says he will sprinkle clean water on us. Is that literally God saying 'I will institute baptism.' No, I don't think so. It was an OT fact, washing was instituted in Mosaic law to become clean from a physical impurity or defilement. The metaphor of 'sprinkle clean water' in Ezekiel is directly related to a 'new heart' and 'new spirit.'

What washes away our sin in the New Covenant? Put another way....What is poured out for the remission of our sins in the New Covenant? How are we cleansed?

We could alwayss point to John 2 which was a visual playout of CHRIST's very ministry as LORD of THE SABBATH

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

Hebrew 9:16,17:
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

The meaning of Hebrew 9:16-17 is that a testament is not of force until AFTER men are dead, meaning Christ's NT could not come into force until some point after He was dead. Matthew 28:19-20 John 16:15-16 and Luke 24:47 are 3 accounts of the Great Commission. Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." Christ spoke these words AFTER He had died, yet these words still not take effect for several weeks later in Jerusalem. So even though I may die today, it can still take some time for my will to go through a probate period before it takes effect.

I'm afraid you're taking that verse and separating it from it's context. that verse is connected to an entire discourse about Christ death which marked the new covenant in His blood with Him becoming our high priest. this in regard to the forgiveness of sin through Christ sacrifice. the paragraph containing this verse ends in saying that without the shedding of blood their is no remission of sins.

It is not dealing with the validity of new testament law at all.

 

[MarysSon]

Who have you come to depend on for salvation?

Salvation comes only through the grace of God via the Sacrifice of Jesus on the cross.

The is nothing else that saves us.

 

[TheSeabass]

No
John can't baptize anyone into himself nor can anyone be born again in John

John was a temporary light and witness to CHRIST

His work was just what he said it was

"A voice in the wilderness.....

There is no verse that says no one could be born again with John's baptism. From the context of John 3, John's water baptism was how Nicodemus could be born again, yet Pharisees rejected John's baptism Luke 7:30 leaving him not born again.

 

[TheSeabass]

Yes. What type of purification would Nicodemus the teacher of Israel know. He would know the TaNaKh. He would have no idea what Christian baptism is about. The apostles did not until Pentecost.

That is why I posted Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31. Jesus was teaching, actually revealing in terms Nicodemus should have known (OT) the New Covenant fulfilled in Him Christ Jesus.

If you look at the passages I posted from Ezekiel 36, God says he will sprinkle clean water on us. Is that literally God saying 'I will institute baptism.' No, I don't think so. It was an OT fact, washing was instituted in Mosaic law to become clean from a physical impurity or defilement. The metaphor of 'sprinkle clean water' in Ezekiel is directly related to a 'new heart' and 'new spirit.'

What washes away our sin in the New Covenant? Put another way....What is poured out for the remission of our sins in the New Covenant? How are we cleansed?

Jn 3:10 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?" "These things" refers to what Christ just said to him about being born again.

Nicodemus had no excuse not knowing what Christ was talking about, and Pharisees as Nicodemus, rejected John's baptism Luke 7:30 leaving them not born again. The Pharisees instead would trust their salvation based on being descendants of Abraham, John 8:39. Matthew 3:7-11 the Pharisees had knowledge of John's baptism therefore Christ is telling them in John 3 to quit rejecting John's baptism. Jesus submitted to John's baptism as most likely would His Apostles. As one commentator once noted how the Pharisees stumbled at water baptism as some today likewise do.

In water baptism one is buried and rises up from that water grave having just had all his sins was cleansed away by the blood of Christ. If the Pharisees, as Nicodemus, were knowledgeable as they claimed to be then they wold see this new birth Christ spoke about in John 3 from the OT as Ezekiel 18:31 and they also had John telling them about this new birth Matthew 3:7-11 with John warning them about trusting their salvation simply on being Abraham's descendants, Matthew 3:9;