Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

Alive_Again · Jan 26, 2013

be very suspect of something that claims to revamp truth as we know it. That is where doctrines of devils come from.

So carry on your study and do it at length... While I agree with most of your statement I have to STRONGLY disagree with the bold text!

Many times it is the doctrines of devils that has been rooted in the common perception and it takes someone to stand against it. That is exactly what the reformation did to stand up to the error that had crept into the RCC.

Obviously when I say that, people have something in mind where it was important to point out error. I'm actually referring to foundational Christian beliefs (orthodoxy) is suddenly wrong, even though we have had the Spirit of God providing that truth, with plenty of opportunity for revision in this last century of reformation.

Hillsage · Jan 26, 2013

Alive_Again said:
I'm actually referring to foundational Christian beliefs (orthodoxy) is suddenly wrong, ...

I don't think it is a belief that is "suddenly wrong". On the contrary, I think you just suddenly found out. Universalist roots go back to the first centuries of the early church.

"According to Edward Beecher, a Congregationalist theologian, there were six theology schools in Christendom during its early years - four were Universalist ( Alexandria , Cesarea, Antioch , and Edessa ). One advocated annihilation ( Ephesus ) and one advocated Eternal Hell (the Latin Church of North Africa)."

So much for 'majority rule' winning then, like you think it ought to win now?

Notice that the only ONE theology school advocated your position....and then see if you can you say "Latin Church" and Roman Catholic, in one breath? I did (as a RCC)...and still can (as one who isn't). Unfortunately the "Latin Church" in good Christian manner, took the breath of anyone who believed anything against their doctrinal persuasion.

Of course they did this to 'protect' the truth...just like the bible translating companies do today, by refusing to hire anyone who disagrees with your position.

Alive_Again · Jan 27, 2013

There was a lot o confusion sown by the enemy in the early church (after the apostles death). Just because their were advocates of different thought didn't make it right.

So much for 'majority rule' winning then, like you think it ought to win now?

The Holy Spirit has had a long time to work in the church to set it straight. The Lord's taken many and let them even see Hell, so they could go and tell others about its reality. Many don't even believe in that.

Doctrines that preach that Satan will one day be saved are no doubt Satanic. Everlasting and all that this entails means just that and even Satan knows it. It somehow violates people's sense of God's mercy to think that there is eternal suffering.

How soft is tossing someone in the fire at all? On earth we would seem that extremely cruel, yet God's ways are higher and we have all the chance in the world to choose life.

Hillsage · Jan 27, 2013

Alive_Again said:
There was a lot o confusion sown by the enemy in the early church (after the apostles death). Just because their were advocates of different thought didn't make it right.

But 'thanks be to God', the 666 (sic) different orthodox "Christian" denominations we have today have fixed that "confusion"? Forgive my facetiousness.

Doctrines that preach that Satan will one day be saved are no doubt Satanic. Everlasting and all that this entails means just that and even Satan knows it. It somehow violates people's sense of God's mercy to think that there is eternal suffering.

We all have our opinions and you are certainly entitled to yours. My walk has simply moved me to a place where my opinion, which 'used to be the same as yours', has changed.

Ronald · Jan 27, 2013

Hillsage said:
Hillsage said:

Don't get upset, but IMO that isn't all you don't follow.

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Sorry, been away from the computer for a couple days.
I did follow you when you doubted that there is such a thing as spiritual death. It is a separation that Adam and Eve experienced and what we inherit. We are born blind, without a spiritual connection to God. If we aren't dead, what does Jesus do when He makes us spiritually alive by giving us a "new" spirit?
Again, Jesus told the disciples to "let the dead bury the dead". What do you think He meant by that?
"for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit." 1 Pet. 4:6
"And you -- being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh -- He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses."Col. 2:13

I also followed you when you said

the spirit is the life/energy force

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! I said no it isn't. This would imply that the Holy Spirit is a force and energy source. Animals don't have spirits, they do have souls. They are living, thinking, feeling but they are not spiritual beings. Our spirits are not physical nor do they empower physical life or give us energy. God gives us life and sustains life.
You also claimed that

the soul is the brain at work!

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I say no again. God has a soul but He doesn't have a brain!
"I will set My tabernacle among you, and My soul shall not abhor you."Lev.26:11
"I dismissed the three shepherds in one month. My soul loathed them, and their soul also abhorred me."Zech.11:8
Behold! My Servant whom I have chosen,
My Beloved in whom My soul is well pleased!
I will put My Spirit upon Him,
And He will declare justice to the Gentiles."Matt.12:18

I defended my positions with scriptures and you rebutted all with 'opinion'. And then you never did explain why the "day" in chapter two, contained two days worth of creation from chapter one.

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The Hebrew word "yowm" when modified by a difinite or cardinal number means a 24-hour period (as mentioned in the seven days of creation). Otherwise, it can mean "a period of time", as it does in chapter two. In the RNSV, NIV, NCV, KNOX versions, day isn't even used: "These are the generations of the heaven and the earth when they were created". ("when" implies a period of time). In Homan Christian Standard, "at the time" is used.

I have figured it out IMO. They were told they would "surely die" and they did,

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This is a spiritual death that they experienced on that day. Their physical bodies began to die cellularly and their days were numbered. This is not a foreign doctrine that I made up. Dead in sins and transgressions means spiritually dead!

ALL before a 'thousand year day' had passed.

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Taking the "a day is like a thousand years ..." verse out of context and applying it to creation is an error. This verse is used in reference to the end times Day of the Lord which can be applied to the Millennial Kingdom, since we see judgment at both ends. To be sure, it is merely saying that God is not confined to time, He works outside of time.

GEN 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

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This all went as planned. God knew this was going to happen and obviously did not want them to live for ever in a sinful state.

"access, communication" GEN 4:13 And Cain said unto the LORD,...
15 And the LORD said unto him,
"connection" GEN 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

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God did communicate and appeared to those He chose to -- key, significant people in history, repentent followers. I would imagine it was audible as well.
Adam, Eve and many of their offspring were still believers including Cain, so that they weren't totally disconnected, like this world of their descendants. Don't you think they repented? I do. Enoch walked with the Lord and was taken up. Obviously he lived by faith and the Lord favored him.
Christs sacrifice traveled back in time to save all those who lived by faith, eternal salvation was imputed to them. I don't understand it completely, but their relationship was severed by sin.
Opinion again give me a scripture...I did.

LUK 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat

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This was a miracle, He made her alive and whole again. She was a believer to begin with, not blind and so this would be similar to him bringing us back.

EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

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Dead ... in addition to being in sin.

LUK 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

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Jesus never experienced spiritual death, just physical death as a man. He is God and never stopped being God.

Alive_Again · Jan 27, 2013

But 'thanks be to God', the 666 (sic) different orthodox "Christian" denominations we have today have fixed that "confusion"? Forgive my facetiousness.

666? That's extreme to the core. All denominations have a "core" of truth that God moves within and responds to. It's true that God has adapted to man's programs somewhat, but they preach salvation and holiness. People don't all agree on minor issues, but that is a far cry from 666. 666 means you've made your allegiance with the devil (with no turning back).

In fact Orthodox denominations (not talking about THE denomination), lead people to Jesus, read the Word of God, talk about the Holy Spirit, reverence God. Through they make sure everyone stays on track with the Trinity, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, communion, acknowledges the importance of scripture as truth, etc. This keeps cult doctrine out of the church. We've noticed in particular that the primary traits of cults are to change who Jesus and the Holy Spirit are. This is to be condemned.

Hillsage · Jan 27, 2013

Ronald said:
I did follow you when you doubted that there is such a thing as spiritual death. It is a separation that Adam and Eve experienced and what we inherit. We are born blind, without a spiritual connection to God. If we aren't dead, what does Jesus do when He makes us spiritually alive by giving us a "new" spirit?
Again, Jesus told the disciples to "let the dead bury the dead". What do you think He meant by that?
"for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit." 1 Pet. 4:6
"And you -- being dead in the trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh -- He made alive together with him, having forgiven you all the trespasses."Col. 2:13

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

So tell me, do you EVER SIN? If not then you must not be "alive unto God" according to your take of being alive/dead and this verse. If you sin, like the rest of us Christians, then your position just gets weak for inconsistency.

I also followed you when you said ! I said no it isn't. This would imply that the Holy Spirit is a force and energy source. Animals don't have spirits, they do have souls.

Please don't tell me they don't have flesh in light of scripture.

Num 16:22 And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?
Num 27:16 Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

They are living, thinking, feeling but they are not spiritual beings. Our spirits are not physical nor do they empower physical life or give us energy. God gives us life and sustains life.

Jesus raised Jairus' dead daughter by bringing her spirit back. Jesus died when he surrendered his spirit. Good enough for me, in support of my position.

This is a spiritual death that they experienced on that day. Their physical bodies began to die cellularly and their days were numbered. This is not a foreign doctrine that I made up. Dead in sins and transgressions means spiritually dead!

Your opinion. Which you are entitled to.

Taking the "a day is like a thousand years ..." verse out of context and applying it to creation is an error. This verse is used in reference to the end times Day of the Lord which can be applied to the Millennial Kingdom, since we see judgment at both ends. To be sure, it is merely saying that God is not confined to time, He works outside of time.

Opinion again, please quote at least one scripture when you want to engage me in a biblical debate. I quoted the Hebrew definition that supported my position and threw the "thousand years as a day" in because it also fits. If yo think it is limited to "the day of the Lord" that's cool.

This all went as planned. God knew this was going to happen and obviously did not want them to live for ever in a sinful state.

Obviously....your opinion again. This is really tiring for me Ron. We should just quit, I think.

God did communicate and appeared to those He chose to -- key, significant people in history, repentent followers. I would imagine it was audible as well.

Here's my rub. Your are right "appeared to those HE CHOSE to". I have studied "predestination/fore-ordained/chosen and elect" also. Guess what, if He doesn't pick you first, you aren't picking Him.

Adam, Eve and many of their offspring were still believers including Cain, so that they weren't totally disconnected, like this world of their descendants.

Are you making this up as you go You post a question, I post a scripture rebuting your stated 'opinion' and then you rebut with stuff like the above. I don't think we are going to be continuing on much more Ron. It is too pointless.

Don't you think they repented? I do. Enoch walked with the Lord and was taken up. Obviously he lived by faith and the Lord favored him.
Christs sacrifice traveled back in time to save all those who lived by faith, eternal salvation was imputed to them. I don't understand it completely, but their relationship was severed by sin.

Hebrews says "These ALL DIED, not having received the promise." Guess who is in that list?...ENOCH! Scripture doesn't say He was taken up, it says "He walked with God, and was not." Which means???? He was gone/dead. Then, in Hebrews it says "He didn't see death". Even though his name is in the list of those who "died in faith". You can let your indoctrination make this fit your theolgy, but I couldn't. Then I found out that this was a Hebraism and it simply meant 'he died quickly and without pain', sort of like going to sleep and not waking up. He never saw death coming...kind of how we ALL want to go.

Hillsage/scripture wrote concerning Jairus' daughter; LUK 8:55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat

Ron writes; This was a miracle, He made her alive and whole again. She was a believer to begin with, not blind and so this would be similar to him bringing us back.

Excuse me SHE WAS A BELIEVER??? So tell me when did she get BORN AGAIN, since it wasn't even available? You got ONE thing right for sure, this was a miracle.

Jesus never experienced spiritual death, just physical death as a man. He is God and never stopped being God.

Scripture must have it wrong then.

Heb 2:17 wherefore it did behove him in ALL THINGS to be MADE LIKE to the BRETHREN, that he might become a kind and stedfast chief-priest in the things with God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people,

Ron, we may be brothers, but we certainly don't have to be theological twins. This is going no where IMO.

Hillsage · Jan 27, 2013

Alive_Again said:
666? That's extreme to the core.

I totally agree, and only use it symbolically to make an extreme point. The schisms of the body of Christ (The many membered body, which my Lord died for) is woefully sick because of its divisions over doctrine. And who is behind that 'perfect plan'? I say the Devil. I also say I am for "unity of the Spirit" while those deceived think that means 'conformity of doctrine'.

All denominations have a "core" of truth that God moves within and responds to. It's true that God has adapted to man's programs somewhat, but they preach salvation and holiness.

AS do I...As do I. NONE of this has been contrary to 'that' which is truly essential.

People don't all agree on minor issues, but that is a far cry from 666.

Unless one makes minor issues essential...like you are doing?

666 means you've made your allegiance with the devil (with no turning back).

I'm disagree, but I am more than willing to let the real God confirm or deny your judgment of me. An EXTREME judgment, at that, I might add.

In fact Orthodox denominations (not talking about THE denomination), lead people to Jesus, read the Word of God, talk about the Holy Spirit, reverence God.

As I too have done, as well as jail ministry, deliverance ministry, being on prophetic teams, counseling ect. ect. Wouldn't surprise me that I have a much bigger testimony than you. We will find out that truth 'some day' also.

I think it is best that you and I also go our separate ways. You enjoy your 'doctrinal box' and I will enjoy mine.

Alive_Again · Jan 27, 2013

I'm actually referring to foundational Christian beliefs (orthodoxy) is suddenly wrong, ...

I don't think it is a belief that is "suddenly wrong". On the contrary, I think you just suddenly found out. Universalist roots go back to the first centuries of the early church.

Of course we don't preach universalism in Orthodoxy. That's because it is unorthodox. The core values of the church being the actual orthodoxy.

So much for 'majority rule' winning then, like you think it ought to win now?

I'm talking about churches where the Holy Ghost is in manifestation. That means where God speaks, He is more likely to reign.

Does it not seem suspect to you that he would one day be saved, when the Bible states that he'll burn for ever and ever?

But 'thanks be to God', the 666 (sic) different orthodox "Christian" denominations we have today have fixed that "confusion"? Forgive my facetiousness.

666? That's extreme to the core. All denominations have a "core" of truth that God moves within and responds to.

People don't all agree on minor issues, but that is a far cry from 666.

Unless one makes minor issues essential...like you are doing?

If you walk in love, it won't matter a great deal that you believe the devil will be saved. If you believe everyone will be saved, where is the urgency in the soul winning? After all, they're going to be saved. Why have accountability either? We're all going to Heaven!

The 666 thing is very telling on your perspective. It is very common among universalists to entirely dismiss orthodoxy as being altogether deceived. That is the dangerous thing about "unorthodoxy". You end up moving away from where the Holy Spirit is in manifestation because you put it all in the "box" as you say, as they all "suffer" from corrupt beliefs. You lose the prize when you do that because God is in the church today. It's coming back to me now all of the dialog I have had with Universalists. It's very tragic in my opinion. Of course, I'm the one who's is supposed to be missing out. I don't mean to offend, but I actually feel sorry for that kind of perspective. That is a very segregated view putting you on the "outiside" of the move of God in the orthodox church today. Sad indeed.

666 means you've made your allegiance with the devil (with no turning back).

I'm disagree, but I am more than willing to let the real God confirm or deny your judgment of me. An EXTREME judgment, at that, I might add.

I'm not judging you at all. You're your own man. We're just looking at doctrine.

BTW, if you take the mark, there is no coming back. You need to be very clear about that. You probably won't see it in your day anyway. Anyone preaching otherwise is really doing some damage. I trust you are not, since you obviously "eclipse" my ministry. It is a mistake to compare oneself to others. We need to compare to what God calls us to and our faithfulness to it. That is where your comparisons need to remain.

As I too have done, as well as jail ministry, deliverance ministry, being on prophetic teams, counseling ect. ect. Wouldn't surprise me that I have a much bigger testimony than you. We will find out that truth 'some day' also.

I hope you do. That will mean that you do some real benefit for the kingdom. I don't know how you measure that. That statement seems to be born out of an offense that goes before a fall.

It will be told at the Judgment Seat of Christ when our works will go through the fire.

I think it is best that you and I also go our separate ways. You enjoy your 'doctrinal box' and I will enjoy mine.

It seems very sad to me. I'm very sorry.

MikeBigg · Jan 28, 2013

Abana said:
I have to be honest and say that I haven't read this whole thread but I do have a thought to ponder. I ask myself these questions often:
1. What did God tell Adam would happen to him if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil?
2. Did God warn Adam that he would suffer the fate of an everlasting torment in the flames of hell?
3. Has God changed?
4. What is sin?
5. What are the wages of sin?
6. Is one sin greater than the other?
7. Is Adam's transgression greater than Jesus' redemption?

These questions have flooded my heart since being compelled to study Romans 5.

{snips]

Thanks for your post, Abana and your questions. Some of them have been asked in the thread already.

Romans 5 is great isn't it!

Regards,

Mike

Ronald · Jan 29, 2013

Hillsage said:
Hillsage said:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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Wow, you are equating "dead in sin" with "dead unto sin"? They are opposites. You have your fundamentals twisted.
Soteriology, the study of salvation, contains the basic truth that man is born spiritually dead (separated from God)!
You need to bo back to Christian kindergarden sir. Ask any pastor (except the one who taught you for years) or priest these questions:
Is man born spiritually dead?
Are we given a "new spirit", alive to God? If so, it would rule out your "life/energy source" concept.
Is the brain part of the soul of man or is the soul immaterial?

Basic stuff, Christianity 101. Even wikipedia can inform you. I'm done --go study!

MikeBigg · Jan 29, 2013

4LivingCreations said:
I would participate, and be civil. Though this forum seems busy enough I might miss the thread with my limited time to check.

Thanks for that - it is appreciated. I haven't started a thread, I'm still not convinced it can be done here, not necessarily because of people being impolite, but that I'm not sure we could ensure we start with a blank sheet of paper.

I wouldn't want it to get into a thread that just bashes bible verses back and forth.

Hmmm. Thinks hard, but hasn't got a solution yet.

Mike

Hillsage · Jan 29, 2013

MikeBigg said:
Thanks for that - it is appreciated. I haven't started a thread, I'm still not convinced it can be done here, not necessarily because of people being impolite, but that I'm not sure we could ensure we start with a blank sheet of paper.

I think the only blank sheet of paper that is really needed is yours Mike, since it was you who started the post in quest of 'an answer'. If all papers were blank you simply have "the blind leading the blind" don't you? I readily admit my paper isn't blank...anymore. And it is equally obvious that 'the sheet' of others isn't blank, either.

Hmmm. Thinks hard, but hasn't got a solution yet.

Thinks hard but needs to ask questions if seeking an answer???? What exactly are you thinking so far. Give an honest response to what you've read so far...and ask any question you might have for both sides. What strikes you as 'right' and 'wrong'.

From your opening post OP.

(I'm not sure this is the best place to post this, but please lets not discuss the existence of hell in this thread - thank you).

Why did you post here? I'd have to say, this really isn't the best place, because because it is an UNORTHODOX question. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been moved by the moderators to that forum. To post here is to expect a 'Spirit filled/Charismatic' box filled answer. I just checked in here expecting to see a post along the lines of 'Spirit filled/Charismatic believers', which I am...and have been for 40 years.

MikeBigg · Jan 30, 2013

Hillsage said:
I think the only blank sheet of paper that is really needed is yours Mike, since it was you who started the post in quest of 'an answer'. If all papers were blank you simply have "the blind leading the blind" don't you? I readily admit my paper isn't blank...anymore. And it is equally obvious that 'the sheet' of others isn't blank, either.

You may be right. I personally haven't studied the subject in detail, so all I have are the things I've picked up along the way. So, starting from scratch is important to ensure I have no dodgy doctrines. For those who have already studied and come to a conclusion, I guess from them I would like to see at least some respect for the blank sheet, rather than a death by Bible verse type thread - that I guess we'd get around here.

From your opening post OP.
Why did you post here? I'd have to say, this really isn't the best place, because because it is an UNORTHODOX question. I'm honestly surprised it hasn't been moved by the moderators to that forum. To post here is to expect a 'Spirit filled/Charismatic' box filled answer. I just checked in here expecting to see a post along the lines of 'Spirit filled/Charismatic believers', which I am...and have been for 40 years.

Well, 2 reasons: 1) I hadn't heard of the unorthodox section; 2) I wanted to ask the question in what I'd now call an orthodox place. There are many places on the internet where unorthodox doctrines are promoted. I'm wary of being led down a wrong route by enthusiastic wrong thinkers. So I asked among fellow charismatics.

Thinks hard but needs to ask questions if seeking an answer???? What exactly are you thinking so far. Give an honest response to what you've read so far...and ask any question you might have for both sides. What strikes you as 'right' and 'wrong'.

Hmm. Over the last several years I have been on a discovery of God's goodness and grace. I'm struck by some of the things Jesus said about Himself; He describes Himself as "gentle and humble at heart". We know Jesus revealed the Father to us, so we can say that the Father is gentle and humble at heart, too. And proverbs 3 says:

11 My son, do not despise the Lord’s discipline,
and do not resent his rebuke,
12 because the Lord disciplines those he loves,
as a father the son he delights in.

Which is so beautiful - my Father delights in me, even when I've been stupid. This is how parenting should be. I wish I was more like this with my kids.

We also know that the different aspects of God's nature and character mutually supportive and non-contradictory.

It is hard to reconcile these aspects of God with an eternal torment. A punishment that goes on and on and on as reward for a finite "crime" which I didn't even commit. I just doesn't seem just.

Then you put into that mix some of Romans 5:

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

{ my emphasis }

So, eternal torment doesn't make sense to me, yet universalism, even though alluded to in Romans 5 (and other places) is considered heresy (or at best unorthodox).

During these last few years I have come to realise that English translations of the Bible cannot be trusted. It is so dependent on the translators' existing doctrines. (Which is why everyone jumps to the Greek to find out what was really said.) Which really makes finding out what an English Bible should say quite tricky.

Because of the journey I've been on for the last few years, I'm tending towards "eternal" being a mis-translation. Having looked, albeit briefly, at Bible verses and explanations on both sides, "eternal" not being forever fits in better with my relationship with God and my knowledge of Him as a gracious, gentle, loving Father who loves the lost as much as the found.

Regards,

Mike

4LivingCreations · Jan 30, 2013

So, eternal torment doesn't make sense to me, yet universalism, even though alluded to in Romans 5 (and other places) is considered heresy (or at best unorthodox).

It might help to look at it as "Universal Reconciliation" rather than "Universal Salvation", which also might include a different concept of "Salvation".

What Salvation is freely given, and what Salvation is given to those who ask? Salvation from death, or destruction, vs. Salvation from our selves, sin, each other, etc.

I believe all men are reconciled, and enter paradise, but I believe there is a choice as to whether we practice it while given the chance, vs. a lake of fire (a thorough witness to our wrongs) which makes the choice to be like Jesus obvious, clear, and unfortunately, no longer achievable by way of practice, only freely allowed in a final grand mercy and tearful hindsight.

Option A: A job well done in the name of Christ, no harshly being thrust before the mirror. (You already cast yourself into the fire and changed willingly)

Option B: You failed. This is how it all works, behold yourself and all your wrongs, all the pain you inflicted. Do you understand the things you can never do again?

The detestable corpses that remain to be viewed forever are the corpses of our sinful half, the tares, the chaff, the other man in the same bed, the other woman grinding away at the harvest.

Peace.

Hillsage · Jan 30, 2013

Mike,

You are asking yourself good questions, for good reasons...IMO, of course.
The unorthodox forum is really the only place where it is supposed to be freely discussed, and it is also where you'll hear the best, as well as some of the worst, support FOR the belief. But you also have a number of those who go there for the very purpose of refuting it. And again you'll hear the best/worst posts. I do understand your coming to the 'Spirit filled forum' first, but you can also see where it is going....or not going. Always remember what scripture says; "You shall know them by their fruit".

Which is so beautiful - my Father delights in me, even when I've been stupid. This is how parenting should be. I wish I was more like this with my kids.

I hear you, and I still have guilt from my failure in that department...since I am now a grandfather of 5 and my 2 live 325 and 500 miles from us. Invest wisely in them now...and expect to make mistakes.

So, eternal torment doesn't make sense to me, yet universalism, even though alluded to in Romans 5 (and other places) is considered heresy (or at best unorthodox).

You are absolutely right. But think about this....Martin Luther was considered a hereticby the ORTHODOX church of his day...even as it is considered ORTHODOX today....right? Martin set an example for all of us, to not worship the institutional church. WE ARE THE CHURCH as far as the scriptures are concerned.

During these last few years I have come to realise that English translations of the Bible cannot be trusted. It is so dependent on the translators' existing doctrines. (Which is why everyone jumps to the Greek to find out what was really said.) Which really makes finding out what an English Bible should say quite tricky.

Don't you know that is 'heresy'? I have come to believe that there are too many worshiping, the "scriptures" about God more than they are the 'God of the word'. Websters even has a word defining it...bibliolatry. And it certainly isn't referring to 'heathens or pagans'.

Because of the journey I've been on for the last few years, I'm tending towards "eternal" being a mis-translation.

And this is a huge revelation IMO. One that took the most research on my part, before being 'finally' committed...after 10 years of study. All I can say is this, Universalism may not have 'all the answers', but it certainly gives one the freedom to ask 'the right questions' in their search, even as you are doing.

Hey brothers,
I just went to check the rules for sure. I won't be posting much more here, it's just not allowed, and they were pretty explicit.

Faulty · Jan 31, 2013

Since there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22), and it is an impossibility for those who know of repentence and reject it to be brought to repentence again through the shedding of the blood of Christ (Heb 6:4-6), then where is the additional blood sacrifice coming from that people who are supposedly "forgiven and released" from hell are basing their justification towards God on?

4LivingCreations · Jan 31, 2013

Since there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22), and it is an impossibility for those who know of repentence and reject it to be brought to repentence again through the shedding of the blood of Christ (Heb 6:4-6), then where is the additional blood sacrifice coming from that people who are supposedly "forgiven and released" from hell are basing their justification towards God on?

Yet, "Remission" is not forgiveness. Remission is an ongoing disappearance of something.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Set Apart Spirit..."

...refers to the very topic at hand! The dismissal of calling God evil. Once a person has surrendered, He does not transgress likewise again.
"IF" and lest he "put Him to an open shame" via a fully conscious blasphemy of the Set Apart Spirit.

Blood is a cry for Salvation. First thing you think or say when you bleed is "somebody make it stop!" To shed it, is to make someone "cry uncle" or hurt them to provoke the cry.

Note that Jesus did not shed His own blood, that is a very errant phrase that is tossed around in churches. His blood was shed by others.

To cry only for our own salvation is to wash in our own blood. (worthless) To cry for the salvation of others, as Jesus did, is to wash in the blood of the Lamb.

If there is such a rule that we cannot know repentance (turning away from sinful intent), and fall from it as if to necessitate doing it again, then nobody can qualify. We know of it and reject it every day. We "stop smoking" and start again. We stop our road rage, then suddenly start it again.

The blood, and forgiveness, are perpetual, not additional, but it has to stop sometime, before the throne.

Some will stand before the throne before physical death, those who serve every 24 hours of every night and day, all their life (Rev 4:4), some afterward, experiencing His presence as a lake of fire.

Jasper and Sardine stones, used to make seal rings, one for wax (the scroll, the book of Revelation itself) and one for ink (the word bound in the noggin)

The rainbow is still around the throne, a precious stone (testimony) colored in life and renewal.

Peace.

SavedByGrace3 · Jan 31, 2013

Faulty said:
Since there is no forgiveness of sins without the shedding of blood (Heb 9:22), and it is an impossibility for those who know of repentence and reject it to be brought to repentence again through the shedding of the blood of Christ (Heb 6:4-6), then where is the additional blood sacrifice coming from that people who are supposedly "forgiven and released" from hell are basing their justification towards God on?

Good point.
Something to ponder.

Mediate · Feb 1, 2013

My testimony of the God of reconciliation is here;

In my late teens, I came to a point where my life had gotten so bad that I just wished it would end. I found that nomatter what I did I just couldn't get it right. And I joined a christian community to try to find some sense of peace. I had read the bible and I knew in my heart 'Jesus, wow, he would make me see the light, wouldn't he'.

And what I found was disturbing to me.

Aren't we all here to find God?' I would ask, as I had stones thrown and questions like 'have you repented? Have you asked Jesus forgiveness!! Repent!!'

I was told that God was found through jumping through hoops and 'saving' others.

'But Christ came and died for me, didn't he?' I asked ' so that Living a life of peace and being a good person is all that matters, right?'

'Hahaha no Mediate, you must believe and profess that Jesus died for your sins, and repent of them all!'

'So then I have to profess and never sin again?'

'No, but if you believe, you'll be washed of sin!'

'So I can do whatever I want and get away with it then?'

'No! But you can't sin!'

'So then I need to never sin, right?'

'No! But you'll be forgiven your sins! And those sinners will go to hell!!'

'But how am I better than them, then?'

'Because you believed on Jesus!!!'

'But all I did was profess, and your telling me I can sin all I want and be forgiven'.

'NO! You can't sin. Let me explain; because you believe, then God forgives your sins!'

'What if I'm not sorry for one or two?'

'Then you were never saved really! Eternal torture!!'

'So I shouldn't sin in-case I go to hell?'

'NO! You shouldn't sin, because Jesus God hates sin!'

'But do you not sin?'

'YEs! But God forgives my sin!'

'Why does he forgive your sin and not someone elses outside here?'

'Because I believe on Christ!'

'So then all we have to do is believe Jesus died and we'll get our sins forgiven and go to heaven!'

'NO, you have to be one in the spirit and believe in your heart!'

'What's the spirit?'

'Well, that's God's life force/part of the trinity of God!'

'Oh, Ok. So how do I have the spirit?'

'By believing in Christ's death and resurrection adn repenting of your sins!'

'So if I repent, then I'll have the spirit. So anyone who believes in Christ will have the spirit and never sin again?'

'No!! Not everyone who believes will have the spirit!!'

'So, how do I know if I have the spirit?'

'God will tell you!'

'So God knows if I have the spirit?'

'Yes!!'

'So why do some get it and others don't?'

'Because God is righteous!!'

'But doesn't that mean that he sends some people to hell without a chance and others to heaven?'

'Don't dare question God's motives!! God is righteous!!'

'Okay. So what happens if I really want to have the spirit, and be in heaven, but God doesn't give me it after I believe adn profess and repent?'

'Then you were never saved!!'

'Even if I am really sorry?'

'Yes. Some people just go to hell!'

'How is that fair?'

'Because God says so!'

'So I have to repent, and believe on Christ to get to heaven, but I might not even get to heaven?'

'*gets annoyed* stop asking questions. God is a mystery and human minds can't understand the mystery of God!!'

so confused and disheartened, I left.

And I spent the next few years trying to peice together every puzzle. There were always questions I asked that nobody seemed to have the answers to. Like 'getting a place in heaven' was all just dumb luck.

and then what I discovered made everything change.

God said to me one day, 'Don't do it for yourself, son. It's not about that'.

I realized that condemnation and spite and jumping through hoops to 'get back in the house' (eden, heaven) after God had cursed humanity and thrown us out, was never the righteous motive for faith.

Like a child who gets grounded and does everything in their power to get back outside. They don't say 'My mother and father did this for a reason. I need to learn why. They just will look for any condition or any path back outside again. and that's what christians and myself had been doing. Using the bible just to find any 'way' or 'path' to get back into where we believe we 'belonged' again. It was like saying 'God, I belong in there. I'm getting back in, I'll do anything you want! I surrender!! The crying child saying 'let me in God, let me in God, let me in God, please God', all masked in a life of 'of course I will God, of course, of course I will'. But that isn't right.

I realised that the world as we know it, which includes sin, and death, WILL end some day. And all we must do is be patient and love one another till then.

Patience is what I never had! Patience is what humanity does not have!

God put his hand on my shoulder and said 'Son, I have a plan. You won't be there forever. Don't worry. Just you tell people. Just you comfort people like I'm comforting you. It'll all make sense some day'.

And I was elated! 'Thank you Father!!'

I realised that I wanted God more than I wanted 'the place in the garden'. Though it took God's own insight to make me see that's what I wanted! I wanted God's will!. And this is what it will be like for 'sinners'. Through God's revealing, they'll realise he was what they really wanted and needed all along.

And I studied and studied and studied, and I came to a few conclusions.

1. The word 'Eeon' and 'Olam', they do not mean eternity. They mean 'beyond the horizon', 'as far as the eye can see', 'just past our vision'.

they are attributed to a state of things rather than a length of time.

2. God gets what he wants, and we are fortunate that God wants us all to be with him in paradise. 'God's will is that all be saved'.

3. For those who do not come to realization, for those who have been downtrodden, confused, beaten up by society, or rejected from religion, or have been dismayed by what teacher's today profess; there will be a moment of realization, unfaded, as in a mirror, (in God's 'consuming fire', when he is as a 'refiner of Gold and Silver', and they shall have the 'mud of the earth' rubbed in their eyes, and their sight shall be restored. The result of their refining gives off a smoke that is elation beyond what any man can comprehend. It is the witness to their own sight being restored, adn they shall remember it and regard God in high authority from their own free will!

It is a moment as 'I did not see this. I am truly sorry, you were right God'. In free will they will come and have both knees knelt before God. Joy running as spouts from their eyes.

Is universalism the only option if there is no hell?

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