-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Is turning from sin a requirement of getting saved?
- Thread starter Jim Bob
- Start date
R
Rightglory
Guest
James1979.
no man is under the wrath of God in the first place. If that were true, then Christ would never have come. He came to save sinners. He had mercy upon His entire creation. Where is the wrath?
The rest of what you say is exactly correct. Man will have no excuse that he did not or could not know God. He will be required to give an account of what he did with the measure of grace given to him.
What do you think the gospel is? It is not just the written scripture. It is the very word and Word of God. At the above text states were were born with the knowledge of God implanted within all of us.
Whoever stated that man does not respond because God interacts with him. It is all about God which is why man does not have an excuse. But man is also required to use the gifts given to him. Lazerus has nothing to do with a spiritually dead sinner be raised.
That was a physical resurrection not a spiritual one. That was the specific work of the Christ, the Incarnated Christ as His own resurrection. It gave life to the world, to every man that cometh into the world. It is why all men can respond again because that response will have consequences. Mankind has been freed from the bondage to death and sin.
Christ quicked every soul by His resurrection. It was the recreation of the world. Christ gave life to the world. You are missing the whole reason of why Christ came into this world. He needed to reverse the fall so that man, every man could respond to His call of an eternal union with Him.
When that person believes, repents and is baptised He receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which initiates the regeneration of that person.
You didn't know you made it, but you stated "We are justified by Christ's death (his soul) and his perfect obedience to the law. " All men were so justified. That is precisely what Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, II Cor 5:18, and Col 1:15=20 are saying.
There are no exceptions in these verses. It is the reaons why all men can respond. All were given an eternal existance through the resurrection of Christ. That is what He accomplished for mankind, John 6:39.
but what you are missing in your understanding is that man is already condemened through the fall of Adam. Every man was condemned to death. Unless that is corrected you can forget about heaven or hell. Unless Christ redeems the world, triumphs over death, you will never see heaven or hell. That is the whole point of Christ's reconciliation of the world.
Another gross error of your theology is that mankind, every human being will live forever, eternally. No man will be destroyed. That is why Christ came again, to restore His own created order back to life. The unsaved will have an eternal existance just like believers. The only difference between them is what is different in this life between believers and unbelievers. Belivers will exist with Christ, unbelievers will exist apart from Christ. That is a spiritual death, not a physical death. Being destroyed would sound like a good option, if one did not desire to be with God in this life. You have just eliminated hell from your theology.
John 17 is Christ's High Priestly prayer. It has nothing to do with the rest of mankind and the salvation of any individuals. It is applicable only to the disciples. It is the election of the disciples which I will commit on later.
Might work for a theology that needs isolated prooftexts, but John 17 is about the disciples in these verses.
The Holy Spirit seal is about God's promise to man. I don't think we need to worry about God in our relationship, but I do worry about my obligations and commitment. in that relationship. Scripture does not give any promises that man can make that He will remain faithful to the end. There are to many examples of many to departed. We would not have the 200 plus warnings to remain faithful. To keep our faith, to not lose faith. How can you be saved by and through faith, when you can lose that faith. God cannot be taken for granted. He will not be mocked. If you deny Him, He will deny you. That is a God given promise that falls under that same seal.
I suggest that you do look seriously at scripture and see that you do not have any guarantees for man in the relationship between God and man. It is a mutual relationship, not a forced arrangement. It is not one sided. It takes two to complete. God cannot save you alone, and you cannot save yourself alone. It takes both to be saved.
Why God provided salvation was not necessarily for man. It was because God is Sovereign over His creation. If God permitted death to reign, to permit the condemnation of Adam to remain, God's created universe would be disolved through death. Satan would have been the ultimate authority over God's creation.
But God in His Great Mercy saved the world and mankind from the condemnation of death. He needed to save all things. If He failed to save all things, He would have failed in saving anything. It's really that simple.
Regarding your comments above. None of us would have died in our sins. That is why you do not understand about scripture and our salvation. Why would we die in our sins, when we were already condemned to death. All the sins in the world would not have done anything either way. Even if we could have lived perfect lives, it would not have saved us. That is what Pual keeps saying about the law. Only the creator, the Giver of life in the first place can restore His created order back to life. Back to an eternal existance for which He created it, including all human beings.
This is what I asked before, what did you mean by this "deserve the wrath of God". If Christ did not come, we would not recieve the wrath of God. We would have succumbed to the power of satan who ruled this world by death. Heb 2:14.
You have a complete misunderstanding of what Christ accomplished and why. God actually had mercy upon all because in His justice He did not think it just to permit death to reign over the world by virtue of one man's one sin. He rather thought it to be more just to give to each individual the right and privelge to condmen themselves or save themselves. We do that by faith. We enter into a saving spiritual relationship or we can reject God. Heaven and hell only exist because God defeated death, the power of satan. Now all men have an eternal existance but must choose where they desire to be for an eternity.
It has nothing to do with being good. As I stated above, we could have lived a perfect life it still would not have saved us from the fall.
Can you explain just how a mortal human being would be able to restore life, an eternal physical existance for himself?
Also, just how could a sinner be able to atone for his own sins?
The primary problem of man is that He is dead, a mortal being.
What is required of you is to believe. Repent, be baptised and recieve the Holy Spirit. All men are capable of doing that, and have been from the beginning. We are all consubstantial with each other, we are all the very same essence, a human being.
The Holy Spirit begins that work externally with all men. Man is obligated to give an active choice. It is not passive. But man can leave that commitment at any time. There is nothing holding man except man's own desires.
Satan can surely possess you if you permit him to do so. it is all within your power, your choice. If you doubt that, reread the story of Adam. Did God prevent him from leaving the relationship they had? God isn't going to prevent you either. That was the purpose of God creating man with a rational soul. To be in His Image, to be communal. That was to be a freely entered, mutual relatioship to be real. We are in the very same relationship as Adam had with God.
You are also confusing what election is for. There are only 5 elections in all of scripture. NOne of them was for salvation. Or none were for specifically granting salvation to anyone.
ONly two were individuals - they being Christ and Paul. The others were Israel, which is what you refered to in the Esau episode, the Disciples, and the Church (elect). Every single one was for a specific service, none for salvation of individuals or even salvation directly.
no man is under the wrath of God in the first place. If that were true, then Christ would never have come. He came to save sinners. He had mercy upon His entire creation. Where is the wrath?
The rest of what you say is exactly correct. Man will have no excuse that he did not or could not know God. He will be required to give an account of what he did with the measure of grace given to him.
What do you think the gospel is? It is not just the written scripture. It is the very word and Word of God. At the above text states were were born with the knowledge of God implanted within all of us.
Whoever stated that man does not respond because God interacts with him. It is all about God which is why man does not have an excuse. But man is also required to use the gifts given to him. Lazerus has nothing to do with a spiritually dead sinner be raised.
That was a physical resurrection not a spiritual one. That was the specific work of the Christ, the Incarnated Christ as His own resurrection. It gave life to the world, to every man that cometh into the world. It is why all men can respond again because that response will have consequences. Mankind has been freed from the bondage to death and sin.
Christ quicked every soul by His resurrection. It was the recreation of the world. Christ gave life to the world. You are missing the whole reason of why Christ came into this world. He needed to reverse the fall so that man, every man could respond to His call of an eternal union with Him.
When that person believes, repents and is baptised He receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which initiates the regeneration of that person.
If it was passive we would not be held accountable. God would need to be the judge of himself. Saul could have rejected that message on the road to Damascus. Paul was not forced to do what he did. God did not coerce Paul's will so that he could do nothing but react in the affirmative. Same for Judas, same for Mary and a host of other NT examples.
You didn't know you made it, but you stated "We are justified by Christ's death (his soul) and his perfect obedience to the law. " All men were so justified. That is precisely what Rom 5:18, I Cor 15:22, II Cor 5:18, and Col 1:15=20 are saying.
There are no exceptions in these verses. It is the reaons why all men can respond. All were given an eternal existance through the resurrection of Christ. That is what He accomplished for mankind, John 6:39.
but what you are missing in your understanding is that man is already condemened through the fall of Adam. Every man was condemned to death. Unless that is corrected you can forget about heaven or hell. Unless Christ redeems the world, triumphs over death, you will never see heaven or hell. That is the whole point of Christ's reconciliation of the world.
Another gross error of your theology is that mankind, every human being will live forever, eternally. No man will be destroyed. That is why Christ came again, to restore His own created order back to life. The unsaved will have an eternal existance just like believers. The only difference between them is what is different in this life between believers and unbelievers. Belivers will exist with Christ, unbelievers will exist apart from Christ. That is a spiritual death, not a physical death. Being destroyed would sound like a good option, if one did not desire to be with God in this life. You have just eliminated hell from your theology.
.
John 17 is Christ's High Priestly prayer. It has nothing to do with the rest of mankind and the salvation of any individuals. It is applicable only to the disciples. It is the election of the disciples which I will commit on later.
Might work for a theology that needs isolated prooftexts, but John 17 is about the disciples in these verses.
A saved sinner only has possession of eternal life. He has not obtained the inheritance until death. One can always lose that inheritance for many reasons.
The Holy Spirit seal is about God's promise to man. I don't think we need to worry about God in our relationship, but I do worry about my obligations and commitment. in that relationship. Scripture does not give any promises that man can make that He will remain faithful to the end. There are to many examples of many to departed. We would not have the 200 plus warnings to remain faithful. To keep our faith, to not lose faith. How can you be saved by and through faith, when you can lose that faith. God cannot be taken for granted. He will not be mocked. If you deny Him, He will deny you. That is a God given promise that falls under that same seal.
I suggest that you do look seriously at scripture and see that you do not have any guarantees for man in the relationship between God and man. It is a mutual relationship, not a forced arrangement. It is not one sided. It takes two to complete. God cannot save you alone, and you cannot save yourself alone. It takes both to be saved.
Why God provided salvation was not necessarily for man. It was because God is Sovereign over His creation. If God permitted death to reign, to permit the condemnation of Adam to remain, God's created universe would be disolved through death. Satan would have been the ultimate authority over God's creation.
But God in His Great Mercy saved the world and mankind from the condemnation of death. He needed to save all things. If He failed to save all things, He would have failed in saving anything. It's really that simple.
Regarding your comments above. None of us would have died in our sins. That is why you do not understand about scripture and our salvation. Why would we die in our sins, when we were already condemned to death. All the sins in the world would not have done anything either way. Even if we could have lived perfect lives, it would not have saved us. That is what Pual keeps saying about the law. Only the creator, the Giver of life in the first place can restore His created order back to life. Back to an eternal existance for which He created it, including all human beings.
This is what I asked before, what did you mean by this "deserve the wrath of God". If Christ did not come, we would not recieve the wrath of God. We would have succumbed to the power of satan who ruled this world by death. Heb 2:14.
You have a complete misunderstanding of what Christ accomplished and why. God actually had mercy upon all because in His justice He did not think it just to permit death to reign over the world by virtue of one man's one sin. He rather thought it to be more just to give to each individual the right and privelge to condmen themselves or save themselves. We do that by faith. We enter into a saving spiritual relationship or we can reject God. Heaven and hell only exist because God defeated death, the power of satan. Now all men have an eternal existance but must choose where they desire to be for an eternity.
It has nothing to do with being good. As I stated above, we could have lived a perfect life it still would not have saved us from the fall.
Can you explain just how a mortal human being would be able to restore life, an eternal physical existance for himself?
Also, just how could a sinner be able to atone for his own sins?
The primary problem of man is that He is dead, a mortal being.
What is required of you is to believe. Repent, be baptised and recieve the Holy Spirit. All men are capable of doing that, and have been from the beginning. We are all consubstantial with each other, we are all the very same essence, a human being.
The Holy Spirit begins that work externally with all men. Man is obligated to give an active choice. It is not passive. But man can leave that commitment at any time. There is nothing holding man except man's own desires.
Satan can surely possess you if you permit him to do so. it is all within your power, your choice. If you doubt that, reread the story of Adam. Did God prevent him from leaving the relationship they had? God isn't going to prevent you either. That was the purpose of God creating man with a rational soul. To be in His Image, to be communal. That was to be a freely entered, mutual relatioship to be real. We are in the very same relationship as Adam had with God.
You are also confusing what election is for. There are only 5 elections in all of scripture. NOne of them was for salvation. Or none were for specifically granting salvation to anyone.
ONly two were individuals - they being Christ and Paul. The others were Israel, which is what you refered to in the Esau episode, the Disciples, and the Church (elect). Every single one was for a specific service, none for salvation of individuals or even salvation directly.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
