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Is touching yourself a sin? (2)

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Floatingaxe

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I'm sorry, but....



You must not know many born again, spirit-led Christians.

As a matter of fact yes I do. And I've come to find out that they all don't look like we "think" they should. Too many people tend to put Christianity in a box and think that if you are a Christian "you must do this" or "you can't do that". Just because someones walk with God doesn't look like mine, or yours, doesn't mean they are not a born again, Spirit-led Christian.[/quote]


Right, we are all in different stages of growth. But, when truth is proclaimed, then it behooves a true born again believer to stop, look into the Word, and when he discovers the same truth for himself, he retracts and takes on that new truth--it's called "maturation". Sheep.


A nominal Christian doesn't do that. He stands his ground and digs his heels in, holding fast to his pet lie, unwilling to be taught--stiff-necked and unyielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching. Goat.
 
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rosiecotton

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{quote}Right, we are all in different stages of growth. But, when truth is proclaimed, then it behooves a true born again believer to stop, look into the Word, and when he discovers the same truth for himself, he retracts and takes on that new truth--it's called "maturation". Sheep.


A nominal Christian doesn't do that. He stands his ground and digs his heels in, holding fast to his pet lie, unwilling to be taught--stiff-necked and unyielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching. Goat.(quote)

So just because someone doesn't agree with you on a topic that makes them immature, stiff-necked and unyielding?? Well, there are many, many Christians who don't believe masturbation is a sin. Honestly, for myself, I haven't come to either conclusion. I am not saying it's always a 'good' thing to do, nor am I saying it's necessarily a sin.
But, I would never go so far as to question someones walk with God and whether or not they truly follow Christ based on their take on a topic such as this. If it truly is a sin, and that person does have a good relationship with God, then in His time, He will let them know.
 
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Floatingaxe

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It is a history of a person totally at odds with wholesomeness, that I am addressing here.

If a behaviour is something that isn't "always a 'good' thing to do", then it is categorized as sin. Period.
 
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Zecryphon

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So just because someone doesn't agree with you on a topic that makes them immature, stiff-necked and unyielding?? Well, there are many, many Christians who don't believe masturbation is a sin. Honestly, for myself, I haven't come to either conclusion. I am not saying it's always a 'good' thing to do, nor am I saying it's necessarily a sin.
But, I would never go so far as to question someones walk with God and whether or not they truly follow Christ based on their take on a topic such as this. If it truly is a sin, and that person does have a good relationship with God, then in His time, He will let them know.
[/QUOTE]
"But, I would never go so far as to question someones walk with God and whether or not they truly follow Christ based on their take on a topic such as this."

Neither would I. I could only question someone's walk with Christ and their claim to be a Christian if they repeatedly behaved and spoke in a way that was contrary to what God has made clear is acceptable. If they behave more like the world than like a Christian, you DO have to start to wonder about them and rightly so. We can not declare that any person is not a Christian, but we can certainly wonder if they are or not. There's nothing wrong with that. Does God not tell us to be on the lookout for wolves in sheep's clothing? To be on the lookout for false teachers? If we can not do that amongst ourselves, exactly what purpose does church discipline serve?

"If it truly is a sin, and that person does have a good relationship with God, then in His time, He will let them know."

I pray that He does.
 
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Floatingaxe

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"But, I would never go so far as to question someones walk with God and whether or not they truly follow Christ based on their take on a topic such as this."

Neither would I. I could only question someone's walk with Christ and their claim to be a Christian if they repeatedly behaved and spoke in a way that was contrary to what God has made clear is acceptable. If they behave more like the world than like a Christian, you DO have to start to wonder about them and rightly so. We can not declare that any person is not a Christian, but we can certainly wonder if they are or not. There's nothing wrong with that. Does God not tell us to be on the lookout for wolves in sheep's clothing? To be on the lookout for false teachers? If we can not do that amongst ourselves, exactly what purpose does church discipline serve?

"If it truly is a sin, and that person does have a good relationship with God, then in His time, He will let them know."

I pray that He does.[/quote]

 
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LeliAne

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Now you go right ahead and tell me if you can touch after reading scripture or if you believe anything that the bible says or tell me "What would Jesus Do? Careful with your answer!
 
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holo

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Yes, while your and Floatingaxe's attitude is so godly and Christ-like it shines...!
 
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Floatingaxe

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Yes, while your and Floatingaxe's attitude is so godly and Christ-like it shines...!


Why thank-you, holo! I do like to let my light shine. I refuse to hide it under a bushel. Let it be known that I am proud to call myself a Christian, a redeemed child of the Most High God! Light and salt. Sometimes the truth is salty and stings, but we are called to proclaim it nonetheless...as truth, and not compromised or watered down.
 
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Gukkor

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It is a history of a person totally at odds with wholesomeness, that I am addressing here.

If a behaviour is something that isn't "always a 'good' thing to do", then it is categorized as sin. Period.

Then to express love for anyone or anything is a sin, by that logic. After all, to love God and your neighbor are the highest of virtues, but the love of money is the root of all evil. Good to love sometimes, bad to love other times. Thus, love is categorized as sin. Period.

Of course, I don't actually think you believe this. I'm simply showing you where this sort of reasoning can lead you.
 
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Floatingaxe

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Can you explain what are you talking about? Where, in my post, have I mentioned the word, "love"?

 
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Zecryphon

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Yes, while your and Floatingaxe's attitude is so godly and Christ-like it shines...!
"Yes, while your and Floatingaxe's attitude is so godly and Christ-like it shines...!"

That "g" should be capitalized if you are talking about your Father in Heaven. Christ wasn't afraid to call it like He saw it and neither are we. You said earlier in this thread something to the effect of you not wanting to be identified as a Christian based upon a faith icon but rather by what you write in your posts. I have read quite a few of your posts in the time that I've been here and those posts are what I base my judgment of you upon, just like you wanted. Why are you now saying that people aren't being "Christ-like" to you,when people are doing what you said you want them to do?

Holo's own words: By the way, the reason I don't have a denominational or faith icon is that I'd rather not be judged after that sort of thing, but rather on what I write.

You have been judged by what you have written, nothing more. If you don't like the feedback you're getting, you'd have to take it up with the author of the comments, which is you.
 
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holo

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That "g" should be capitalized if you are talking about your Father in Heaven.
Yes, of course. How could I have been so unGodly as not to capitalize it? Good thing you did the Godly thing and reminded me.

It's your attitude, not the fact that you're reading my posts, that is rotten.

OK. So, as an example, if I were to that say [staff edit] based on what you've written. Have a problem with that? Hey, don't look at me, you have to take it up with yourself! It's YOU who made ME [staff edit]...

Brilliant logic.
 
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rosiecotton

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OK, back to the topic (instead of arguing about whether holo is a Christian or not...only God truly knows his heart- not us...)
Sometimes I wonder why this is a topic that sooooooo many people deal with. Probably almost every single person in this world deals with this at some time in their life (I know EVERYONE may not, but most people do).
And I wonder why. Out of all the other things we look at as sin....alcoholism, adultery, murder, etc.......this is the one thing most people deal with and have a hard time overcoming. Why? I mean, I know many people who have no problem saying no to alcohol, they aren't even tempted to even try it. So why is this something that many people struggle with and feel deep shame and guilt over if they do it? Say they haven't done it for months, then 'oops' one day they slip up, and then feel horrible and guilty.
God made us sexual beings. He made sex to feel good. Look at very young children, toddlers. Most parents will tell you that at very young ages, children touch themselves. I have two boys, and it seemed like that's all they did! Everytime you looked at them, their hand was there. They don't do it because they are having sexual thoughts, but because it feels good.
And, as parents, we tell them, "stop doing that! that's nasty!" or something to that effect. So, kids get the idea that it's dirty and nasty, even though, it's a very natural thing for kids to do. As I said, they are not having sexual thoughts, they do it only because it feels good.
Soooo, as they grow up and learn more about their bodies, and sex, they still hold the thought that 'it's dirty'. They are told it's wrong to lust (which I agree, the Bible says we aren't to lust). But, as stated we ARE created as sexual beings, but we feel we have to suppress our sexual feelings, thoughts, if we aren't married. We aren't "supposed" to have those feelings if we aren't married.
Could this be one reason so many people struggle with it and feel guilty about it? Because we are taught from a very young age that it's 'dirty'.
This was something that I struggled with a lot from a very young age. I always felt guilty about it. I even struggled with it after being married.
I then started reading different viewpoints on it (from Christians), and realized maybe it's not the big huge bad sin so many say it is. Once I started looking at it differently, it lost it's hold on me. I wasn't tempted anymore by it.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
 
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Zecryphon

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"OK. So, I say you're a drooling idiot based on what you've written. Have a problem with that?"

Not at all. But you'd have to prove how what I write proves that I am what you claim I am.

"Hey, don't look at me, you have to take it up with yourself! It's YOU who made ME call you an idiot...

Brilliant logic."

I'm thoroughly convicned that you and logic have never met. You tell people that you want to be judged by what you write and then get your panties in a twist when you are. Where's the logic in that?
 
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Gukkor

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Can you explain what are you talking about? Where, in my post, have I mentioned the word, "love"?


Your reasoning was that if something wasn't always a good thing to do, it was a sin. You were implicitly referring to masturbation in that post; I simply took your logic and applied to something else, namely, love.
 
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Zecryphon

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"And I wonder why. Out of all the other things we look at as sin....alcoholism, adultery, murder, etc.......this is the one thing most people deal with and have a hard time overcoming. Why?"

My guess would be because it feels good and doesn't harm another person in the short-term, so therefore it must be okay. Because isn't that how we judge whether or not an action is good? By whether or not it will hurt someone else? If we think what we do won't directly hurt someone, we do it.

"I mean, I know many people who have no problem saying no to alcohol, they aren't even tempted to even try it. So why is this something that many people struggle with and feel deep shame and guilt over if they do it?"

Guilt and shame can come from a number of places, but I think the biggest problem here is the mixed message the world sends to us on this issue. On the one hand we're told by psychologists and sex therapists and other people in those types of fields that it's okay and healthy to touch. Yet on the other hand if people around you find out you're doing this, you're automatically classified as some loser who can't get a girlfriend or a hook-up for a night and have to take matters into your own hands. The message that there is clearly something wrong with you, what people hear most loudly in this situation.

"Say they haven't done it for months, then 'oops' one day they slip up, and then feel horrible and guilty.
God made us sexual beings. He made sex to feel good. Look at very young children, toddlers. Most parents will tell you that at very young ages, children touch themselves. I have two boys, and it seemed like that's all they did!"

I think there's a difference between a young toddler touching himself and a grown man or a teenager touching himself. The difference being the toddler hasn't been taught anything about it, he just knows it feels good. He hasn't been taught that it's either right or wrong. He hasn't been taught that that is something you do in private. A teenager and a grown-man should know those things. If the Christian feels horrible and guilty about this or any other activity, they should repent and and then in the future abstain, by whatever means necessary from committing the act again. If that means therapy, or self-help books or seminars so be it. If it means being in constant prayer or getting an accountability partner do that as well. But none of that can or will happen unless a person feels that what they're doing is shameful in the first place. If you feel no shame for what you've done, there is no reason to change what you're doing.

We can't force shame upon other people, that's a feeling they feel from their conscience. Deep down inside, they know what they have done is wrong. Now they can try to ignore that and go on with their activity, but when someone says "hey that's wrong", we're not shaming them or giving them a feeling, when they hear that their conscience kicks in and lets them know that what they have done is wrong.

"Everytime you looked at them, their hand was there. They don't do it because they are having sexual thoughts, but because it feels good."

At that age, it's all they know, I agree.

"And, as parents, we tell them, "stop doing that! that's nasty!" or something to that effect. So, kids get the idea that it's dirty and nasty, even though, it's a very natural thing for kids to do."

That's where parents kinda fall short in my opinion, they should also tell the child why that's bad to do. Most parents never do, because they do whatever they can to avoid talking about sex with their children.

"As I said, they are not having sexual thoughts, they do it only because it feels good.
Soooo, as they grow up and learn more about their bodies, and sex, they still hold the thought that 'it's dirty'. They are told it's wrong to lust (which I agree, the Bible says we aren't to lust). But, as stated we ARE created as sexual beings, but we feel we have to suppress our sexual feelings, thoughts, if we aren't married. We are "supposed" to have those feelings if we aren't married."

Yes you can have the feelings, but how you act upon those feelings says a lot about you. Just because you have a feeling doesn't mean you have to act upon it. There is pleasure in self-denial as well. To know that you are in control or your urges and your urges aren't in control of you, is very satisfying and empowering.

"Could this be one reason so many people struggle with it and feel guilty about it? Because we are taught from a very young age that it's 'dirty'."

It could be. But as I said before I think if we explained why it's dirty and why it's bad to do, people might grow up and have a healthy understanding of why it's bad. I don't think most people have that now. I think right now it's like you've been saying, they've only been told it's bad, but not why it's bad. Parents tend to teach their kids the same things they were taught. The kids parents probably heard the same thing growing up, that it's bad, but not why it was bad. So the adults are probably just as confused as the kids are.


But the thing about masturbation is, all people still associate it with being bad. The people that do touch always do it in private, behind a locked door and turn on the tv to muffle their cries of ecstasy. They still try to hide it. Why? If it's as okay as alot of people would like us to think it is, why not do it out in the living room, or somewhere less isolated, where someone might see you? If it's really okay, no one should have a problem with it. So what if your wife or husband comes home and sees you pleasuring yourself. There's nothing wrong wtih it right? But there's the rub. How will your actions affect them? Might they think that they're not satisfying you or your needs in some way? If you're not married, how about if your boyfriend or girlfriend caught you doing that? How would they feel? Once you've been caught doing it, you feel shame and are immediately sorry and apologize to the person who caught you. Why? Because you instantly know that you've now done something that has hurt another person. So it's no longer okay. So ask yourself this, are you sorry for your actions or just sorry that you got caught?

"This was something that I struggled with a lot from a very young age. I always felt guilty about it. I even struggled with it after being married.
I then started reading different viewpoints on it (from Christians), and realized maybe it's not the big huge bad sin so many say it is. Once I started looking at it differently, it lost it's hold on me. I was tempted anymore by it.
Anyway, just some thoughts."

Thank you for shaing. You've asked some great questions.
 
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holo

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"OK. So, I say you're a drooling idiot based on what you've written. Have a problem with that?"

Not at all. But you'd have to prove how what I write proves that I am what you claim I am.
The proof would be your own posts. As you say, take it up with the author.

No, I don't. I am disturbed and appalled by your guys' attitudes, though. I'm fortunately strong and independant enough myself not to be ruined by it, but you have no idea how many people are. You and Floatingaxe have blood on your hands, you slam shut the doors of heaven in the faces of those Christ died to redeem. You got it for free, but you won't pass it on free. Instead, you add all sorts of rules and regulations and commandments and expectations - none of which ever saved YOU, but that you say must be there to save others. That's my problem.
 
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Zecryphon

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Holo, the main problem you have is that you don't understand the law and why it is still necessary. You don't understand it's purpose. Others have tried to explain it to you and you ignore what they're saying. For those who claim the law is neccessary, what do you have for them? Condemnation, insults and sarcasm. I can not shut the doors of Heaven or stop salvation from being passed around. But since you think this is my intention, please show me where in my posts I have shown this attitude. I'll be waiting eagerly for it.

In fact I'd love for everyone to be saved, but in order for that to happen they have to know why they need saving and what they're being saved from. You want all gospel, no law. Without the law the gospel doesn't make sense. That's why the world rejects it, it appears as foolishness. I pray one day you'll take the time to learn this and stop slamming people who understand the purpose the law serves and advocate it's use in evangelism.
 
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Zippythepinhead

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This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is touching yourself a sin?"
Yes. It possibly leads to greater sexual sins such as adultery and fornication. It also demonstrates an inability to discipline ourselves sexually.
 
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