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Is time just a line or something more?

Ripheus27

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First off, here's a link to an article about a physicist who thinks time is at least two-dimensional: A Two-Time Universe? Physicist Explores How Second Dimension of Time Could Unify Physics Laws

Now Immanuel Kant anticipated non-Euclidean geometry to some extent by claiming that Euclidean geometry itself is based on synthetic a priori axioms, i.e. principles that, even if universally true and known by evidence not disclosed to us by the senses, are yet able to be denied without leading to contradictions. Another thing Kant claims in the Transcendental Aesthetic (where his comments about the synthetic apriority of geometry are concentrated) is that, "Time is one-dimensional," is also able to be denied without leading to a contradiction, wherefore Kant may have anticipated the 2D-time physics model Itzhak Bar is working on. Anticipated it in a very abstract sense, anyway...

I've never read Flatland, but it's been indicated to me that the book explains the dimensionality of perception in the following way: for any n-dimensional perceiver, objects can be perceived in n - 1 dimensions. So, for example, humans are 3D perceivers, so they can see all the sides of a 2D structure at the same time. If we were 4D, though, we could see all the sides of 3D objects at once, and so on.

Now map this logic onto temporal apprehension. A 2D temporal perceiver would see at once all the points making up a line traced by an object through time (this is because 1D structures, i.e. lines, are n - 1 for a 2D temporal perceiver). This is exactly how eternity has traditionally been conceived of: God (assuming It exists) doesn't see things moment-by-moment, but in terms of all moments "all at once," as an "eternal present." So an eternal God, if existent, would be one Who was fully aware of things not outside of time but from a higher dimension thereof. (Of course, we can push this thinking to the limit and attribute absolute infinity to God, wherefore God sees 1,000,000D time, and 2,300,000,000,000D time, etc. That's a way to think of divine ineffability without abandoning all concrete concepts.)

Besides theology and physics, modeling time as n + 1D might yield interesting results in other fields. One I would argue at length for subjecting to such treatment would be the philosophy of emotions and music, as well as theories of déjà vu, but in this thread I'm going to conclude by talking a little about ethics. Suppose, for instance, that ethics requires free will that transcends the order of physical cause-and-effect. Kant himself argued that this order is the transcendental synthesis of moments in time: the laws that bind events together into a coherent whole, the laws of nature, are laws for "connecting the dots" in time to form a line.*

What happens if we are not confined to just a line in time, though? Free will might be a force that operates in the domain of higher-dimensional time. It would not conflict with physical causation, but neither would it be subordinate to the process. Hannah Arendt came up with an interesting model of forgiveness, for instance, as basically a power of the human spirit to literally break apart moral timelines (see The Human Condition, not sure which section, for her pertinent remarks). To go back to Kant again, Kant describes spiritual redemption as involving a "revolution in our hearts," something that doesn't result through a single moment of our moral lives but involves an action on our part that somehow comprehends our personal moral timelines as a whole.

What do you think? Do you have any evidence of your own that maybe the ordinary notion of time as a line is mistaken?
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*To those of you who've read up on Carl Jung's concept of synchronicity as an "acausal connecting principle" in time, how plausible do you find it to model synchronicity on the Kantian doctrine of transcendental synthesis, but applied to at least a 2D temporal manifold?
 

steve_bakr

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Interesting. BTW, Do you know of any theologians who have appropriated these ideas?

Karl Rahner felt that eternity was not an endless period of time and that God could not be a part of time. If he were, that would make God a part of the process of existence rather than its originator and sustainer. He maintains that God cannot be measured in any way, which he would be if he were part of time. Of course, this is based on the total Otherness of God. Also, that woud make time finite, although perhaps ultimately immeasurable, because you can't measure time as long as you are part of time or contained within it.
 
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Ripheus27

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Interesting. BTW, Do you know of any theologians who have appropriated these ideas?

Karl Rahner felt that eternity was not an endless period of time and that God could not be a part of time.

I agree in the sense that there is a difference between eternity and sempiternity, and in the sense that time-as-a-line is so ingrained in usual thinking that hyperdimensional time is rarely imagined or even conceived of.

So not only have no theologians, to my knowledge, played around with such concepts, but aside from Itzhak Bars, some mathematicians, less than a handful of philosophers, and one video game (LucasArts' The Dig), I don't remember hearing anyone ever ask whether or suggest that time is more than 1D.

If he were, that would make God a part of the process of existence rather than its originator and sustainer. He maintains that God cannot be measured in any way, which he would be if he were part of time. Of course, this is based on the total Otherness of God. Also, that woud make time finite, although perhaps ultimately immeasurable, because you can't measure time as long as you are part of time or contained within it.

One of the things that got me into Christian theology was studying the doctrine of divine simplicity. Even so, I've never had enough evidence to believe that "having parts" is a weakness. On the other hand, my model of eternal-perception-as-2D-temporal perception doesn't imply that God, as eternal, is limited to time, for God could be defined as perceiving from all dimensions of time, so that He is ultimately more than eternal--greater than all finitely-numbered dimensions of time.
 
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Crandaddy

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One of the things that got me into Christian theology was studying the doctrine of divine simplicity. Even so, I've never had enough evidence to believe that "having parts" is a weakness. On the other hand, my model of eternal-perception-as-2D-temporal perception doesn't imply that God, as eternal, is limited to time, for God could be defined as perceiving from all dimensions of time, so that He is ultimately more than eternal--greater than all finitely-numbered dimensions of time.

I see Divine simplicity as necessary to preserve Divine aseity. If God weren't simple, then wouldn't he be dependent on his parts for his existence? Wouldn't his parts be ontologically prior to the whole that is God? And if so, wouldn't this be a weakness of sorts? Could an ontological composite be a necessary being, for example?
 
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Time is just our way of conceptualizing change.

I don't have any particular problem with time being measured along two dimensions, as long as one can make some sort of rational sense out of that. I don't see why that would be impossible.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Ripheus27

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I see Divine simplicity as necessary to preserve Divine aseity. If God weren't simple, then wouldn't he be dependent on his parts for his existence? Wouldn't his parts be ontologically prior to the whole that is God?

I don't know enough mereology to confidently say one way or another, but otherwise it seems to me as if some wholes could be prior to their parts in a way, or that some could be interdependent on them (so that neither has priority).

And if so, wouldn't this be a weakness of sorts? Could an ontological composite be a necessary being, for example?

Suppose a necessary existence is one that is not possibly nonexistent. Now we might think, "If x has parts, then if its parts were divided, it would not exist," wherefore x having parts implies a potential situation (being divided) in which it does not exist. If God is absolutely necessary, though, then in no situation is it possible for Him not to exist; ergo, He has no parts.

But reconsider the conditional, "If x has parts, then if its parts were divided, it would not exist." Though we might grant parts to God, we wouldn't have to grant anything more than the logical possibility of their division. Metaphysically, they might be indivisible; and so the conditional would be off the mark in a way when applied to God's parts.
 
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Crandaddy

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I don't know enough mereology to confidently say one way or another, but otherwise it seems to me as if some wholes could be prior to their parts in a way, or that some could be interdependent on them (so that neither has priority).

Hmmm... I'm not seeing it. Could you cite an example?

Suppose a necessary existence is one that is not possibly nonexistent. Now we might think, "If x has parts, then if its parts were divided, it would not exist," wherefore x having parts implies a potential situation (being divided) in which it does not exist. If God is absolutely necessary, though, then in no situation is it possible for Him not to exist; ergo, He has no parts.

But reconsider the conditional, "If x has parts, then if its parts were divided, it would not exist." Though we might grant parts to God, we wouldn't have to grant anything more than the logical possibility of their division. Metaphysically, they might be indivisible; and so the conditional would be off the mark in a way when applied to God's parts.
Well, possibly, IF there can be a composite that's metaphysically indivisible. Again, I don't see how that would work, but I'm open to suggestions.
 
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Ripheus27

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Well, possibly, IF there can be a composite that's metaphysically indivisible. Again, I don't see how that would work, but I'm open to suggestions.

Well, I could use God as my example, but thereby beg the question... Here's what Kant says in "Observations on the Second Antinomy":

Space ought not to be called a compositum but a totum, for its parts are possible in the whole, and not the whole by means of the parts. It might perhaps be called a compositum ideale, but not a compositum reale.

As a compositum ideale, or a totum, space (and by analogy time) is mereologically divisible in the abstract, but metaphysically indivisible.
 
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Crandaddy

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Well, I could use God as my example, but thereby beg the question... Here's what Kant says in "Observations on the Second Antinomy":
Space ought not to be called a compositum but a totum, for its parts are possible in the whole, and not the whole by means of the parts. It might perhaps be called a compositum ideale, but not a compositum reale.
As a compositum ideale, or a totum, space (and by analogy time) is mereologically divisible in the abstract, but metaphysically indivisible.

But does space exist just by itself? Or does time, for that matter? If there were no spatial or temporal objects, then could there be any space or time?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I tend to think not. It seems to me that there are spatial and temporal locations, extensions, and relations of and between objects, and that we abstract from and quantify over spatial and temporal extensions and use these abstractions to map out relations between spatial and temporal locations.

So, I'd say that space and time are real as they exist in spatial and temporal objects, but space and time by themselves are just our abstractions. I'd also say that, insofar as objects are spatially and temporally extended, they're really divisible into both spatial and temporal parts. Of course, we can't cut objects up into temporal parts, but I don't see why doing so would be metaphysically impossible, and so I don't see why God couldn't do it.
 
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Ripheus27

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I lean towards... I think it's called "space-time substantivalism," the idea that space and time are independent on their content. Either that or straight-up transcendental idealism. For example, if space only exists through its objects, then if there were a finite number of objects in a world, the "horizon" of space would be the outermost sphere of these objects. But it seems as if we could imagine motion beyond that sphere, and it would have to be motion into and through space outside the relations within the sphere. (But then again, I've never understood a Leibniz-style theory of space and time as relations only, so maybe I'm failing to grasp the Leibnizian reply to my objection.)
 
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ThunderTongue

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Ripheus27 said:
Isn't "Now" a temporal term, though? Or are you denying that the past and the future are as real as the present?

Oh they are real in that they happened or will happen...but there is still only now...we measure time by what happens around us, but it all happens in the now.

If you haven't caught a glimpse of what I'm talking about, then no words I say will do. You have to have been there. Words only dull the essence
 
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Ripheus27

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Oh they are real in that they happened or will happen...but there is still only now...we measure time by what happens around us, but it all happens in the now.

If you haven't caught a glimpse of what I'm talking about, then no words I say will do. You have to have been there. Words only dull the essence

If you're talking about eternity, I know what you're talking about, and words only dull the essence of such a thing for those who don't appreciate the glory of language. (In other words (pun intended), I've had mystical experiences, but the failure of many to describe such experiences I think reflects their own limited vocabulary skills, not the reality of the mystical state.)
 
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ThunderTongue

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Ripheus27 said:
If you're talking about eternity, I know what you're talking about, and words only dull the essence of such a thing for those who don't appreciate the glory of language. (In other words (pun intended), I've had mystical experiences, but the failure of many to describe such experiences I think reflects their own limited vocabulary skills, not the reality of the mystical state.)

Yup
 
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Crandaddy

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I lean towards... I think it's called "space-time substantivalism," the idea that space and time are independent on their content. Either that or straight-up transcendental idealism. For example, if space only exists through its objects, then if there were a finite number of objects in a world, the "horizon" of space would be the outermost sphere of these objects. But it seems as if we could imagine motion beyond that sphere, and it would have to be motion into and through space outside the relations within the sphere. (But then again, I've never understood a Leibniz-style theory of space and time as relations only, so maybe I'm failing to grasp the Leibnizian reply to my objection.)

Well, I'd say that the sphere and the horizon would just be your abstract projections, and that in actual fact, any motion of an object beyond that horizon would be nothing more than that object's spatial change relative to other objects, no different in kind than its motion within the sphere.

I think it's natural for us to project abstractions onto the world and to create mereological constructs within our minds that don't have any real, mind-independent existence, and it seems to me that this is all the sphere and the horizon would be.
 
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steve_bakr

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If you're talking about eternity, I know what you're talking about, and words only dull the essence of such a thing for those who don't appreciate the glory of language. (In other words (pun intended), I've had mystical experiences, but the failure of many to describe such experiences I think reflects their own limited vocabulary skills, not the reality of the mystical state.)

One of the qualities of mystical experience is that it cannot be described adequately. Mysticism transcends language. There have been wonderful descriptions of mystical experience from Christian mystics, Buddhist mystics, and Hindu mystics. But the universal understanding is that these descriptions can only approximate the real experience.

But here you are suggesting that you may have some kind of superior "vocabulary" that enables you to accurately describe your mystical experience--i.e. describe the indescribable.

If you can perform such a feat, I invite you to do so right now.

What you have been talking about so far is philosophy. Show me your personal mystical experience.

What is the sound of the Infinite Silence which is always....here!

What is your true essence right this moment and before your parent's were born?

Describe your own mystical experience.
 
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