Is this true?

[PenelopePitstop2]

Still can't find the book I mentioned which has all the figures although I thinkit may have been Philips not Wolf who endorsed it now I think about it. In any case the link below looks at the pros and cons and shows how each argument can be backed up depending on your view.


http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/thoughts.html

 

[JPPT1974]

At times like these, I am glad that
The US has a death penalty!
Sadly, not all countries don't.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Jesus' forgiveness and our eternal salvation does not absolve us from natural consequences of our sin though, when it comes to the natural law of the government in which we abide when or if we commit crimes.

It doesn't give us an automatic get out of jail free card here on earth. So, we cannot apply salvation or Christ's atonement for our sins to the consequences of our breaking the law of man.

We are still answerable to the law of man under the governments where we abide as long as we are alive. If we commit crimes, there will be consequences regardless of the hope in eternity through Christ that we have.

But then, we all do!

The wages of sin is death.

But the price has been paid for everyone, no matter what they have done.

 

[Miracle Storm]

After religion class today, I learned that most conservative Christians support the Death penalty. Especially in America. Here, where the justice system isn't perfect and you have corruption within the government, yet we support the death penalty? I guess I could see if it were actually a just government, but not here. Is this really true? Do you really support this?

I guess it's hard to say.
I have really never had a "passion" against it.
But when you think that innocent people may be put to death it makes it more real.

I've always felt if someone has done these horrible things and I mean horrible, let them die.

I don't know if Jesus would feel that way though. I think he would probably be opposed. He tells us to turn the other cheek, it's a hard thing to do.
Simpler when someone lies to you, or curses you, cuts you off the road or something small.
But when you hear of brutal killings, serial rapes, terrorists....it makes it hard to have a passion against it.

Plus think if it were your family that had been victimized.

I just really can't answer that question. It does concern me of innocent people dying though.

I will be praying about this though Ishida, good topic to bring up. It is one I think of very little and probably need to find out where I stand on this issue by prayer.

thanks
God bless.

 

[ClaireZ]

So many people use the Bible as a justification for capital punishment, yet if you read the Bible, murder is hardly the only crime for which the death penalty is mandated.

If you take part of the truth, it is still a lie. You must embrace the whole truth in order to align your views with Biblical teaching.

In this case, very few of us would be alive, and posting here.

For instance, the death penalty was mandated for breaking the Sabbath. I am sure most of us have shopped, or cooked, or thrown in a load of laundry or done a home repair on a Sunday. I know I have.

If you are going to live by the law, you need to keep the whole law.

 

[Miracle Storm]

So many people use the Bible as a justification for capital punishment, yet if you read the Bible, murder is hardly the only crime for which the death penalty is mandated.

If you take part of the truth, it is still a lie. You must embrace the whole truth in order to align your views with Biblical teaching.

In this case, very few of us would be alive, and posting here.

For instance, the death penalty was mandated for breaking the Sabbath. I am sure most of us have shopped, or cooked, or thrown in a load of laundry or done a home repair on a Sunday. I know I have.

If you are going to live by the law, you need to keep the whole law.

I'm not clear on who you are responding too here or who is "living by the law"


Hello, saved by grace here, Not under the law anymore, yeah hi that's me. My righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

But anyway maybe I missed something in the thread because I didn't read through it only posted my first reaction thoughts of the OP.

So is it my understanding then you believe the death penalty to be wrong in any circumstances?

 

[ClaireZ]

I'm not clear on who you are responding too here or who is "living by the law"


Hello, saved by grace here, Not under the law anymore, yeah hi that's me. My righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

But anyway maybe I missed something in the thread because I didn't read through it only posted my first reaction thoughts of the OP.

So is it my understanding then you believe the death penalty to be wrong in any circumstances?

Yes, I am against the death penalty. We are no longer under law, and the justice system is too flawed to render God's judgement. Men are weak, and evil, and flawed, they are incapable of exacting the ultimate punishment fairly, and without error.

There are just too many cases where innocents have ended up on death row.

While life imprisonment is still horrible for someone falsely accused and unfairly judged, it is a reversible error.

 

[daveleau]

This is an issue I actually struggled quiet a bit. I was raised in the good old US of A. And I do support the death penalty since I think its a good crime (especially murder) deteraint.

I'm in the same boat as stated above. There is no such thing as a perfect government or one without the problems listed in the OP, even in OT times, yet the issue is not deterance, but justice. If someone does something heinous, there needs to be a punishment that fits their crime.

 

[Albion]

I've always felt if someone has done these horrible things and I mean horrible, let them die.

I don't know if Jesus would feel that way though. I think he would probably be opposed. He tells us to turn the other cheek, it's a hard thing to do.

Hard to know for certain how he feels, but he never did say that the State was wrong to execute prisoners.

What is more important is that we are speaking of THE STATE administering justice, not what an INDIVIDUAL should do or not do (such as turning the other cheek). In fact, it's interesting, isn't it, that at almost the moment when he was admonishing Peter over the cutting off of the soldier's ear, he was allowing himself to be turned over to the Roman government for execution...without any similar comment coming from him about that practice being wrong to do.

 

[Izdaari Eristikon]

So many people use the Bible as a justification for capital punishment, yet if you read the Bible, murder is hardly the only crime for which the death penalty is mandated.

If you take part of the truth, it is still a lie. You must embrace the whole truth in order to align your views with Biblical teaching.

In this case, very few of us would be alive, and posting here.

For instance, the death penalty was mandated for breaking the Sabbath. I am sure most of us have shopped, or cooked, or thrown in a load of laundry or done a home repair on a Sunday. I know I have.

If you are going to live by the law, you need to keep the whole law.

It would be absurd to think of the government of the United States, or of any of the several states, as keeping the Mosaic Law. I do not apply the death penalty; the State of Washington (or whichever) does. And while the majority of Americans are Christians (at least nominally: what percentage actually means it I don't know), our law is English Common Law, not religious law of any kind. I thank God, and our Founders whom collectively I do believe He inspired (see my John Adams sig quote), for that. The State of Washington does not render God's judgement, but man's, as it does also for non-capital crimes. On net balance, I'd have to say I oppose capital punishment... but I could go either way on it. I don't think it's as just as it ought to be, nor as effective as it ought to be, due to the absurd (and I think perhaps unconstitutional) delay before it's applied, but still I oppose it on practical grounds, not on principle.

 

[Criada]

I still ccan;t see how we can ever have tthe rifght to take anorther human's lfe!
Especiallly that of one who is not saved!!

To qwuote Tolkein;

"I do not feel any pity for Gollum.He deserves death."
"Desrves death! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not tooo eager to deal out death in the name of justice...."

 

[Albion]

I still ccan;t see how we can ever have tthe rifght to take anorther human's lfe!
Especiallly that of one who is not saved!!

For one thing, your comment shows that you are still blending together what the State does with what is right or wrong for an Individual to do. So long as this is not set right, the matter is bound to remain perplexing.

 

[Criada]

For one thing, your comment shows that you are still blending together what the State does with what is right or wrong for an Individual to do. So long as this is not set right, the matter is bound to remain perplexing.

Nooo, I feeel the same is true whether it is the state or an individfual!
The State is made yup of individuals...

 

[BelindaP]

Yes. But even when the State does it, a person has to pull the trigger, as it were. Is it right for that person to do it?

 

[Albion]

Yes. But even when the State does it, a person has to pull the trigger, as it were. Is it right for that person to do it?

There's nothing in the Bible that says it is not.

We might find fault with it for some other reason, but morally speaking, there's nothing wrong with it--as you have posed the question, that is.

 

[Albion]

Nooo, I feeel the same is true whether it is the state or an individfual!
The State is made yup of individuals...

You are entitled to the opinion, yes. However, it is more a philosophical concept you are proceeding from. I am trying to speak to the moral issue and with the standards of Conservative Christianity for my guide. The scriptures clearly distinguish between state and individual. The Ten Commandments include one about murder--which I assume everyone opposed to Capital Punishment refers to--but all the commandments are directed towards personal doings and not to state. In this one, it is murder, not killing that is prohibited. For information on how the Bible feels about the state and this matter, we see "Give unto Caesar...." and "Be subject unto the higher powers." It's like the slavery question. The Bible tells slaves how to live, but doesn't criticize the institution of slavery at the same time.

 

[PenelopePitstop2]

You are entitled to the opinion, yes. However, it is more a philosophical concept you are proceeding from. I am trying to speak to the moral issue and with the standards of Conservative Christianity for my guide. The scriptures clearly distinguish between state and individual. The Ten Commandments include one about murder--which I assume everyone opposed to Capital Punishment refers to--but all the commandments are directed towards personal doings and not to state. In this one, it is murder, not killing that is prohibited. For information on how the Bible feels about the state and this matter, we see "Give unto Caesar...." and "Be subject unto the higher powers." It's like the slavery question. The Bible tells slaves how to live, but doesn't criticize the institution of slavery at the same time.

The flaw in using the argument towards submitting to authorities and giving the taxes that are due is that it is fair enough to do these things but what if we are talking about whether it is right to allow Governments to do what is wrong and goes against the word of God. If your argument was correct then every German should have supported Hitler's goverment in killing Jews because they should submit to God's ordained authority. This of course is wrong and many christians helped Jews during that time therefore commiting a felony against the Government. So you cannot just say that because the law of the land says thus we must obey it. In fact in a democracy you should be using your vote to campaign for what is right according to the bible.

In my opinion, if my ethical stand does not permit me to kill another man as punishment for a crime, then I should not expect another man to administer that justice for me. Whilst justice is good, mercy is better. A life for a life does not make things better for the victim or for society.

The very fact that only a tiny proportion of murderers receive capital punishment and of those that are sentenced a proportion win on appeal suggests the system as it stands is flawed regardless of your viewpoint.

To make an effective deterrant you would need to administer capital punishment in every murder case and continue this for long enough to make a point. Then of course you have the difficulty of establishing whether the person is sane and just evil or whether they are mentally ill. A jury is under much greater pressure to reach a guilty verdict when they know a man's life hangs in the line.

At least with prison, if a mistake is made the person may have lost time but not their life. With death there is no room for mistakes

 

[jive4005]

I just choose the "Jesus way". The only "philosophies" I'm interested in are
1. God first and formost...
and
2. Love they neighbor as thyself.

So much talkin' and very little walkin'... as I see it.
When will we give up all the mundane conversation and really start living the life God has call us to live. It certainly wasn't to have eternal debates.

rev

 

[Albion]

The flaw in using the argument towards submitting to authorities and giving the taxes that are due is that it is fair enough to do these things but what if we are talking about whether it is right to allow Governments to do what is wrong and goes against the word of God. If your argument was correct then every German should have supported Hitler's goverment in killing Jews because they should submit to God's ordained authority.

This is a valid point, and one that I almost commented on myself. However, my concern was directed at the following:

What we have from the New Testament to guide us on this matter of obeying government is limited to such verses as I mentioned there. We don't find any saying not to allow Capital Punishment. This was offered as a caution to those who think that the Bible clearly is on the other side; it isn't.

This of course is wrong

And so may we say with equal assurance that what government do wrong is not confined to this one extreme example from history. We can just as well argue that MOST of the government's programs are immoral. Do we then oppose government? Can you make an argument for anarchism from the Bible? I don't think so.

A life for a life does not make things better for the victim or for society.

That's debatable in itself.

The very fact that only a tiny proportion of murderers receive capital punishment and of those that are sentenced a proportion win on appeal suggests the system as it stands is flawed regardless of your viewpoint.

I already agreed to that, but we aren't discussing the practice on practical grounds.

 

[PenelopePitstop2]

I agree we should submit to authority unless we are asked to violate a command from God. For example Daniel submitted to the King until he was commanded to worship the king and then he refused. This is right.

Example abortion is legal in the UK and America, however I am not forced to have one therefore on a personal level I do not have to compromise, however does this mean I should remain silent, No there is a way to stand up for what is right whilst remaining within the law and submitting to authority. Christians who persecute doctors who carry out abortions are wrong and an example of how not to do it. We could however still submit to authority and oppose an action or law we disagree on. For example, you could use your vote to elect candidates who are not in favour of abortion. You could promote alternatives for women so they have a better choice of actions i.e. support, welfare, adoption etc. You can use your rights to influence people who make laws and initiate change.

Esther is a good example of remaining in submission and yet changing the mind of the king.

The reason I use the example a life for a life does not make it better is that killing a man who has killed your loved one, will not bring them back. It will also not make those who have murderous hearts think twice about murdering therefore it's no good as a deterrant.

As a christian, I believe even a murderer can be forgiven. Let's not forget Moses was one as was David and yet God did not kill them. We should show mercy and pray that these men have a revelation of how much they need Christ.