Is this statement about Mary blasphemous?

laconicstudent said:

Theotokos Virgin rejoice, Mary full of grace, the Lord is with thee, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, for thou hast borne the savior of our souls.

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Well said, lc.

Dorothea said:

Most Holy Theotokos, please pray to your Son for us.

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Amen, Lord have mercy.

Unashamed Jesus Freak said:

I understand asking people who are alive to pray for me, but I do not ask people who are dead to pray for me.

Nowhere in the Bible do I find any instruction to pray to dead people or ask dead people to pray for me.

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Indeed not.

However, there is no such creature in all creation as a dead Christian. That is a contradiction in terms.

Therefore, any saint to whom we pray is indeed alive. Some are on earth, with us, some are in eternity, before the Throne. ALL join us when we pray. ALL kneel beside us when we partake of the Eucharist.

Dionysiou said:

Still going!? geeeeeeeeeeezzz alright whoever is unsure as to wether or not it is "ok" to pray to saints in heaven and mary and bla bla bla. Simply pray to God about it and ask Him "Hey, so about all this praying to saints business, whats the deal? good or bad?" Then you wait for an answer, quite simple really and it will solve your problem. Alternatively you could ask the Holy Spirit to tell you.

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Then, if you are still unsure, ask Our Lady.

http://www.the-rosary.info/

Stating the obvious to say that Christians still die.

Donasta said:

Stating the obvious to say that Christians still die.

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Do you really think so?

55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
1 Corinthians 15

Death will be deafeated. It has not yet. We may not have the sting of death but Christians still die. Their bodies are corruptable. They die.

Your post said Jesus abolished death on the cross, but Christians still die, so obviously the first death hasn't happened to many, never mind the second. I noticed that some of your posts say it's not biblical and others say it's not mainstream belief. In this case you said mainstream belief so I think you know the difference.

Donasta said:

Your post said Jesus abolished death on the cross, but Christians still die, so obviously the first death hasn't happened to many, never mind the second. I noticed that some of your posts say it's not biblical and others say it's not mainstream belief. In this case you said mainstream belief so I think you know the difference.

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Here it is again.

Humans are mortal. We are born, we live a certain time, and then we die. Mortality is part of the created universe.

God is immortal. He cannot die. Immortality is part of eternity; any being in eternity partakes of immortality; the angels, the saints in heaven, God himself.

When Christ became God with us:Emmanuel he exchanged his immortality for our mortality, so that we, in turn, can be enabled to exchange our mortality for his immortality. This is known as the Unequal Exchange.

At the moment when we accept that Christ's life was given for us, the Unequal Exchange is effected. This means that, although our mortal bodies may still die (and indeed will), for us as Christians there is NO SUCH THING as death, because Christ has defeated death on our behalf. As with the thief on the cross, the very day we die we will be beside Our Lord in Paradise. Therefore, there may well be lots of bodies buried in the churchyard, but this is not the same thing as saying there are lots of dead, or even asleep, Christians. There is no such thing in all creation as a dead Christian.

If we say those bodies are asleep and waiting for eternity, then we put eternity, and God himself, under time. God is not subject to time.

This is mainstream Christian belief. Most denominations also include a lot about sin and redemption, but essentially the Unequal Exchange underpins the whole sin and redemption motif.

Dorothea said:

Your theology is very different from mine, obviously, and I would say, from my perspective, incorrect. Why did Christ die on the cross? To conquer death and sin (sin = death). Which means, once He died on the Cross and descended into hades and bound Satan and resurrected on the Third Day, death was aobolished, Those righteous in the tombs who were waiting for Christ were released and rose to heaven. No longer did people return to the ground (dust). Christ conquered death so that we now can rise and be with Him after we pass on from here.

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Is it? Why did then Paul say that the last enemy that will be destroyed is death? Why is there still sin in this world? Just watch the news. Why is there still death in this world? Just go to a grave.

Also, not exactly. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:18 that without resurrection, those that asleep (euphemism for the dead) are lost (note that the word "apollumi" can also be translated as lost, as is seen in Luke 15:4; but there, in verse 18 or chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians, it's translated as "perished", even though "lost" is equally valid). It says:

[FONT=&quot]1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](13)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] But if there be no resurrection of the dead[/FONT] ...
[FONT=&quot](18)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are lost.[/FONT]

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Why would they be lost without resurrection if they are with God? Isn't being in the presence of God everything? How are they lost without the resurrection (it's a physical resurrection, because it's also speaking about the resurrection of Christ in verse 12, which is also physical, because He never resurrected spiritually for He was never spiritually dead; so the resurrection in that chapter is physical; no spiritual talk here) if they are with God? To be resurrected is to be brought back to life. How are they lost without resurrection if they are in Heaven, with life itself (John 11:25)?

No. We do not rise and be with Him immediately after we die. It is written:

[FONT=&quot]1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJV[/FONT] (emphasis mine)
[FONT=&quot](16)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](17)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](18)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.[/FONT]

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It says that the dead will resurrect at Christ's coming, the alive will have a new body, and will be caught up in the air. And then they "shall ever be with the Lord". Note that it also says "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air". Why would they meet Jesus if they are already with Him? Is it that they weren't actually with Him and at the resurrection some meet Him the first time?

Also, the final words of this chapter are interesting: Wherefore comfort one another with these words. The first century Christians comforted themselves with the resurrection, that they will resurrect on the day of Christ's second coming and then they shall (in the future) meet Him. I wonder why don't people comfort themselves with the resurrection any more? I mean, just look how much they talked about it. They put their hopes in the resurrection. Scriptures say that the dead will rise with new bodies, the alive will receive new bodies as well, and then they both (which were dead and which were alive at His coming) will go up in the clouds to meet Jesus Christ, and then they shall be with Him forever. But as I said, pastors today don't put their hopes in this.

But today some pastors don't even preach about the resurrection. They put their hopes in death, that when they'll die they'll see the Lord. But it's the opposite! The dead don't praise the Lord (Psalm 115:17). Those alive praise God, our Lord (Isaiah 39:19). We will be resurrected on the day Christ comes, we will be made alive, and then we will meet and praise God. Amen?

Mary is not mentioned in Scripture after the Book of Acts. Her death is not even recorded in the Bible nor is her supposed "ascension" either. If she was so important to salvation or to the Christian faith than God would have mentioned something about her after the Book of Acts. Wouldn't you think?

The actions of most of the apostles are not mentioned in the New Testament; nothing is said of where the majority of the 12 went, nor what they did, nor are their teachings and advice accounted. We do not call them "unimportant", however.

But the apostles are not referred to as "kings of heaven" or "co-redeemers" with Christ as Mary is in the Roman Catholic Church. There are no statues of the apostles that people bow down before or pray to either. There are no prayers like "Hail apostles, full of grace..." either.

Unashamed Jesus Freak said:

But the apostles are not referred to as "kings of heaven" or "co-redeemers" with Christ as Mary is in the Roman Catholic Church. There are no statues of the apostles that people bow down before or pray to either. There are no prayers like "Hail apostles, full of grace..." either.

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"Hail Mary, full of grace ..." is a quoted from Luke, chapter 1 (beg. verse 28); it is not as much repeated in my Church, but it is one way the RCatholics honor the God-inspired words in the Holy Scriptures "all generations call me blessed".

Indeed, we do commemorate all the Apostles, and we ask for their prayers as well. Apostle is a rare and much honored appellation in the Churches that commemorate them. In my Church, we do not have statues, but there are in the RC statues of the Apostles. We have icons, and indeed have icons of the Apostles.

Death is the separation of the soul from the body, an "unnatural" state for mankind, as death was not created by God. Christ 'died' on the cross, yet God can never die. Peter attests in his epistle that Christ descended and taught in Hades; thus He taught the souls of those whose bodies had decayed.

Paul teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even death. Death is defeated and is being defeated and will finally be forever defeated at the end of the creation we call "time". But until then, those who have died are not separated from God, and remain our brothers and sisters alive in the body of Christ. Christ rose, and His body does not contain death; He has conquered death.

shinbits said:

God charged Saul with sin for consulting with a dead person.

Yet another Biblical contradiction from these folks.

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He was not consulting Saul, but a demon. And please don't make me explain. I don't want this thread to go off-topic too much.

Catherineanne said:

The defeat of death does not remain for some future time or event; in human terms it has already happened.

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The last enemy that shall [in the future] be destroyed is death. ~1 Corinthians 15:26

Catherineanne said:

...and none who are 'asleep'.

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And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (Acts 7:60) Stephen was a Christian, wasn't he? And, according to the word, which is truth, he fell asleep.

After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. (1 Corinthians 15:6) Again, these "brethren", "brothers", Christians, which saw Jesus after He resurrected, are asleep, according to the truth, which is the word. So there are Christians that are 'asleep', or dead, as you'll see in the next paragraph.

...and the dead in Christ shall rise first... (1 Thessalonians 4:16) The "dead in Christ" are Christians thus, logically, according to this verse, there are indeed dead Christians, also called dead in Christ.

Catherineanne said:

Do you really think so?

55 "O death, where is thy victory? O death, where is thy sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
1 Corinthians 15

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And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. (Colossians 2:15) This verse says that Christ defeated the principalities and powers and triumphed over them. But they didn't disappear, did they (after being defeated)? It is written: Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. (1 Corinthians 15:24) Even though He defeated these principalities and powers, they are not subdued to Christ yet. They haven't disappeared yet, even thought hey have been defeated. My point is that He triumphed over death, defeated it, but it hasn't disappeared yet. Just go and pass trough a cemetery. You'll see irrefutable proof there. Or go watch a funeral. It's very much the same.

Catherineanne said:

As with the thief on the cross, the very day we die we will be beside Our Lord in Paradise.

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The thief didn't go on that same day in Paradise. It is in contradiction with Scriptures.
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NOTE: I will not respond to any question about death in this thread; let's keep it about Mary.

Thekla said:

Death is the separation of the soul from the body, an "unnatural" state for mankind, as death was not created by God. Christ 'died' on the cross, yet God can never die. Peter attests in his epistle that Christ descended and taught in Hades; thus He taught the souls of those whose bodies had decayed.

Paul teaches that nothing can separate us from the love of God, not even death. Death is defeated and is being defeated and will finally be forever defeated at the end of the creation we call "time". But until then, those who have died are not separated from God, and remain our brothers and sisters alive in the body of Christ. Christ rose, and His body does not contain death; He has conquered death.

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As I said:

NOTE: I will not respond to any question about death in this thread; let's keep it about Mary.

Now please, let's talk only about Mary. If not, this thread will be closed, for it will be derailed off-topic. Okay?

And I would suggest you abandon the topic of death in this thread. It is advisable to know about it, for it is written: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:13). But this is not the right place.

addo said:

As I said:

NOTE: I will not respond to any question about death in this thread; let's keep it about Mary.

Now please, let's talk only about Mary. If not, this thread will be closed, for it will be derailed off-topic. Okay?

And I would suggest you abandon the topic of death in this thread. It is advisable to know about it, for it is written: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:13). But this is not the right place.

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To the extent that it relates to the existence of those who are in Christ, though their bodies are 'asleep' (recumbent, in Greek), it is pertinent to the discussion of any of the Saints.

addo said:

As I said:

NOTE: I will not respond to any question about death in this thread; let's keep it about Mary.

Now please, let's talk only about Mary. If not, this thread will be closed, for it will be derailed off-topic. Okay?

And I would suggest you abandon the topic of death in this thread. It is advisable to know about it, for it is written: But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:13). But this is not the right place.

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Please note, the moderators are alive and well and doing what they do.

Therefore, is no need for anyone here to assume the position of Thread Police. If you notice an infringement of the rules, then report it accordingly. Otherwise, it is not very kind to tell other people what they may or may not talk about, because this verges on bullying.

The question of eternity is relevent to any discussion of Our Lady because some have described her, and other saints, as dead. This is a statement which has been shown to be unBiblical in relation to any Christian.

Those who, nonetheless, want to continue to believe in dead Christians are free to do so. Doesn't bother me.

addo said:

The thief didn't go on that same day in Paradise. It is in contradiction with Scriptures.

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Once again, you have God subject to time, which is the wrong way round. Eternity is not in time, but outside it.

Good luck trying to come to grips with this.