Is this overly cynical?

[DZoolander]

I suppose the best way for me to get into this subject is by example... That way I can best illustrate the types of situations that make me feel this way...

I know a couple... She's 30, he's about 32. They've been together for 16 years. She got pregnant by him at 14 - and had the child. They "dated" for another 3 years afterward - until they were 18 - and they "did the right thing" and got married. In the 12 years since - they've had 2 more children (for a total of 3).

It would not be an exaggeration for me to say that he's spent the whole time that they've been together being a total scumbag - on pretty much every level. He insults her - he calls her stupid - he says she's fat and unattractive (she's mildly chubby...by no means "fat") - he's cheated on her numerous times - he constantly degrades her and trashes her self esteem - he calls her hideous names - he's been physically abusive - etc... Basically - the worst you can imagine in a mate.

Finally - about 3 months ago - she finally got the nerve to say "I've had enough - I'm worth more than this" - and left him. Good for her - ya know?

Now - of course - he's "found Jesus" - and he's pulling the "God hates divorce" card.

...and ya know - that kind of stuff makes me cringe.

Ya know - my perspective is a little different than most other Christians... I frankly think divorce is sometimes a great thing.

You know what God hates also? You being a scumbag. You certainly didn't factor that into the equation for the past 15 years - ya know? When it was to your advantage - to heck with God...however when it actually has an impact upon you...now you're lecturing on what God wants?

I often wonder what percentage of "marital negotiations" like this are truly righteous - and what percentage are simply crappy people opportunistically bringing God into the mix as a last refuge to try and retain control of their partners once things have spiraled beyond their control.

Can God change hearts? Sure. However - I don't think that God changes the hearts of the unwilling.

It would be one thing if (say in the above case) the guy said...

"You know, I'm so sorry for what I did. I've been an idiot. You were perfectly right to leave...and I think that you did the best thing in doing so. I love you - and I love our children. Tell me what I can do to help in this period of transition - but rest assured I will not pressure you. I will do whatever is necessary to help - while I work on getting myself together with God.

If you want to leave - I understand and I respect that. I hope, however, that things are fixable. I won't date...and I will respect your space. When you do come to a decision, however, please let me know. I will support whatever your decision is - either way."

...and then truly behave accordingly.

I mean - if you're truly repentant for what you've done - and if you truly love the other person - I think that's what you ought to do. Sometimes you've gotta pay the piper for your crappy behavior - ya know?

...and there's not a bit of coercive "You're a sinner" nonsense thrown into that.

But that's never how it goes. Like with my friend - within 3-4 days of leaving the house - he's on the phone with her admonishing her on "sin" - and how "God hates divorce" - etc.

In cases like that - I have to admit - I'd like to see a divorce. I don't believe that people like that have changed. I simply see it as continued manipulation from an opportunistic and manipulative person. I see it as a perversion of the Word.

I dunno. Is that overly cynical of me?

 

[eatenbylocusts]

It's hard to believe in miracles, but that's what makes them miracles because it doesn't seem possible. She should remain separated until she's seen his changed character. If he isn't getting into Bible study and being mentored..........forget it.

My ex-h did something like that. We were engaged, he cheated, got caught. I felt so guilty for what we had been doing I recommitted my life (made it all worth it) and started witnessing and giving him Christian writings. Guess what? He became a Christian and we got married. Not too long after we moved into our first place he cussed at me for the first time, stopped going to Bible study..................... I got pregnant unexpectedly and fast forward almost 10 years and he's still a jerk and being a bully to his son, not coming home, girls calling and hanging up when I answer, not working much, so much more.................

Your friend needs to see fruit.

 

[DZoolander]

I agree.

Ya know - I'm sorry to hear you have a marriage like that. That's the kind of thing that makes me cynical - because what you describe of your husband is how I believe people to be. I believe people are goal oriented - and are more than happy to use whatever tools they believe will be meaningful to the other person in order to achieve their goal. When it comes down to it - it's not true or meaningful at all.

It's not significant. It doesn't resonate within them...except to the extent they know it resonates with you.

Ya know?

People that clean up their acts because they see a repercussion aren't to be trusted. More often than not - it's not genuine. They're simply scared - and looking to push whatever button they believe will work - until you're back and it becomes more inconvenient for you to leave again.

...and I agree with you wholeheartedly. You need to see fruit. A lot of it...for a *long* period of time. Anyone can behave themselves for a short period of time. Let them believe that even with good behavior - they stand a good chance of not getting what they want (which ought to be true anyhow). Then see how they behave.

If they're doing it for the right reasons - and if it's genuine - it'll stick regardless. Ya know?

 

[overit]

Ay ay the ole' hoover-no, not cynical it is my true and honest opinion that abusers don't change-and that's my biggest concern asides from his cheating.
I'm not saying it's impossible but it's probably most likely he won't...as you said he knows he's dirt-and thinks since nobody else will have him and maybe he can hoover nicely "i've changed" or threaten enough "God hates divorce" that she'll take me back and I can make it harder for her to leave. She got rid of him-good riddance life is so much nicer away from dirtbags like that-he's changed? good for him let him go live his life in ministry for God and let her recover and live w/out abuse or even the memory of it by being by him. THe fact that he's pulling those words is indicative he hasn't changed.

Tell her there are some great support forums for women recovering from marriages like this where we can help them greatly-how to spot hoovers-how to stay strong.....once you are out and free to go back into that hell is suicide.

God pulled her out for a reason-falling back into that hole she may not have another chance back out. If he's been physical before especially-it's know to happen these guys will put the good front when you go back and the "punish" them severly-many ending in death. Tell her to stay clear-no you aren't cynical-it's life it's the cycle-it's a cyle SHE has to end, for good. Abusers should never be married-if they are and you divorce them hopefully they never remarry (like my ex claims) and hopefully extinct them at some point. Ughhh

 

[PWinChrist]

Dearly Beloved,

Please listen to your heart and pray to the Father for guidance. If you have a pastor, I urge you to go to him, because the advice you are getting from this forum is preposterous. Remember, "Whom God has joined together, let no man put asunder." Any advice that does not line up with the Word is not worth taking heed to. This decision should be between you and your spouse and God and/or you spiritual leader. You both will know if it is God or not. If you are truly living your life for God, then He will be with you, always.

God Bless,
PWinChrist

 

[overit]

PW-the advise is not for the poster-it's for his friend-and it's NOT presposterous to leave an abusive man!!! THat is a lie!!! There are tons of Scriptures to "back" this also-and they are ALREADY divorced! I will not debate this though-it's senseless for me to argue w/anyone who tries to justify staying married to an abuser with Scripture. Adding those heavy burdens on men's (women's) shoulders.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Do you really think her divorcing this guy will solve more problems than it will create for everyone involved?

 

[DZoolander]

Frankly, yes.

But then again - my point of view is influenced by the idea that there ought to be true and lasting consequences for our actions. I believe that real consequences make us better people - and I believe that the severity of the consequence ought to fit the severity of the infraction.

It's really not that hard to be a decent person - ya know? If you're having a hard day - and your wife comes into the room - eek out a smile for her regardless. That's what she deserves. If you're angry - choose not to say the crappy thing - because it *is* a choice. If you truly love her - then treat her as a loving mate would treat her.

If you cannot manage to subdue your nonsense sufficiently to be a decent person to the individual that you ought to be the most decent to - then you don't deserve to keep them.

So - on principle - yeah. Maybe it will teach the dude a lesson - maybe his first ever - and he'll gain an appreciation for how to treat the next one due to the realization that he can lose it if he doesn't behave himself.

 

[Autumnleaf]

Frankly, yes.

But then again - my point of view is influenced by the idea that there ought to be true and lasting consequences for our actions. I believe that real consequences make us better people - and I believe that the severity of the consequence ought to fit the severity of the infraction.

It's really not that hard to be a decent person - ya know? If you're having a hard day - and your wife comes into the room - eek out a smile for her regardless. That's what she deserves. If you're angry - choose not to say the crappy thing - because it *is* a choice. If you truly love her - then treat her as a loving mate would treat her.

If you cannot manage to subdue your nonsense sufficiently to be a decent person to the individual that you ought to be the most decent to - then you don't deserve to keep them.

So - on principle - yeah. Maybe it will teach the dude a lesson - maybe his first ever - and he'll gain an appreciation for how to treat the next one due to the realization that he can lose it if he doesn't behave himself.

Or it won't teach him anything, she will find another guy who will treat her just like he did, and the children will have to deal with the divorce and all those lovely statistics which will move against them in a bad way fast.

 

[overit]

Or it won't teach him anything, she will find another guy who will treat her just like he did, and the children will have to deal with the divorce and all those lovely statistics which will move against them in a bad way fast.

This could be the case or it could not be, and I understand the point you are making....BUT if the woman in question gives proper time for healing and rebuilding her life and uses that time to approach their life in a healthy way and stays away from relationships until she understands her own choices it can and many times DOES turn around AL. The only time what you mentioned happens is if they jump from relationship to relationship and not allow proper healing for herself and more imporantly the children.
I'm living proof-and I know tons of other women like me. As an example-I cut the cycle-and still now over 5 yrs later I've still dedicated my life to becoming healthy and having a stable life for my children-I did not jump into relationships/remarriage or having another man in my life or theirs because I know that this is the best route for them. I'm not saying everyone will choose this life or that 5 years is necessary to rebuild....but IMO it's the wisest choice for us-and guess what? That keeps MY children away from those grim statistics you mentioned.


Women should focus (or men) after divorce on their children, period...not their own happiness, loneliness and need for relationships. Become healthy, become spiritually strong and lead them well-learn from your mistakes....dont' make poor choices, keep relationships away from your kids and spend a GOOD time ALONE-with GOD, building your support network-ensuring your kids have a good relationship w/the father, their uncles/grandfathers and other positive male role models and get strong, healed, wise and healthy. THAT is what will eventually attract a healthy and lasting strong relationship down the road. Keep the focus on Christ and your children....it's hard work and dedication to break the cycle and learn to deal w/your life while relying on God and not men (or women), but to say it's too hard is just laziness and unwillingness to do what's best for your children. It's more then doable if you stay focused on the big picture and not on our own "needs" and dysfunctional way of dealing with life.

 

[DZoolander]

Or it won't teach him anything, she will find another guy who will treat her just like he did, and the children will have to deal with the divorce and all those lovely statistics which will move against them in a bad way fast.

I agree to a large extent - but I'm more in overit's camp here.

Is that a definite possibility? Absolutely. But that's assuming that people don't learn from their mistakes and will continue making the same ones over and over again.

I guess the way I look at it is... if you truly leave the guy - you at least stand the chance of learning from your mistake and making better choices in the future. If you stay with him - you might as well just give up - because there's no chance.

...and in my view - a partial chance is preferable to no chance.

 

[DZoolander]

...and with respect to statistics - while I'm thinking about it...

I wonder which fare better statistically? Children of divorcees - and the consequences that brings...or children brought up in abusive homes where a cycle of violence and demeaning your mate is common course?

 

[overit]

...and with respect to statistics - while I'm thinking about it...

I wonder which fare better statistically? Children of divorcees - and the consequences that brings...or children brought up in abusive homes where a cycle of violence and demeaning your mate is common course?

The difference is in how the divorce is handled by the custodial parent-children from divorced homes that live with a safe, stable and happy single parent DO fare MUCH better then those that grow up in "two parent" homes where abuse exists-not to mention the generations and other people thereafter it would affect. BY FAR divorce is the best option there. KEY IS to maintain stability-work towards restoration of co-parenting relationship eventually (if possible and dad isn't abusive towards kids) and building strong role models. That child will end up w/much better chances in life.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

Nope, you're not overly cynical. She needs to get the book "I Don't Love You Anymore", by David Clarke, PhD. He is also a Christian and he applies biblical principles to situations just like hers.

She needs to remain separated from him and put the ball in his court to give her a concrete list of the changes he is going to make and exactly how he plans to make them (i.e. anger management classes, counseling, etc.) Recommend the book to her Ezoo, it's a really good one that will give her a firm biblical backing for holding strong and seeing change rather than giving in and finding that he reverts to his old miserable self shortly after reconciliation.

My husband tried the same thing. "I want to change." Not "I am changing." Not "I am going to do xyz to bring about change." Just, I want to. Well, hey; I wanted him to change, too. But - he didn't. It was just words said with no effort to back them up.

I also received an email, late in the process, that said "please please think what would Jesus want you to do." I replied, "Jesus told me to run."

After it had become apparent to everyone that there would not be any change in his life, I let him know in clear and concise terms that while I pray that he will one day straighten up and become a person of integrity, faith and honor and make someone a good husband and father, it will not be with me & my kids.

 

[DZoolander]

Exactly.

That's just like when I went through my divorce 10-11 years ago. It isn't that I wished her ill or anything. In fact - I sincerely hoped back then (and to this day in fact) that she eventually would get her act together and live a happy/fulfilled/non drama laden life.

...it just wasn't gonna be with me in the picture anymore.

 

[DZoolander]

...and thanks for the book recommendation!

 

[eatenbylocusts]

Frankly, yes.

But then again - my point of view is influenced by the idea that there ought to be true and lasting consequences for our actions. I believe that real consequences make us better people - and I believe that the severity of the consequence ought to fit the severity of the infraction.

I believe there should be consequences too, but sometimes we humans are not the ones to do the punishing. And the Bible needs to be applied also, not just deciding for ourselves when divorce/remarriage is ok.

Just to make this very clear- I absolutely believe that a woman (or male) should not stay in an abusive marriage. Restoration should be the prayer even though the odds look bleak. She needs to consider God's will and what the Bible says-considering what it says about remarriage in her situation and keep that in mind when she tries to figure out how long she will hope for restoration. Divorcing him in order to punish him can also be punishment for her and the kids too. Society generally would encourage someone to divorce quickly and seek marriage with another, but it may be that God wants this person to remain separated for an extended time while He works on the man.

I don't pretend to understand why physical abuse is not given as grounds for Biblical divorce and remarriage, but your friend needs to consider this. This is just one more reason why someone should take their time before finalizing a divorce. Time apart seeking God's will and getting healing should be the priority.

 

[Flibbertigibbet]

I don't pretend to understand why physical abuse is not given as grounds for Biblical divorce and remarriage, but your friend needs to consider this. This is just one more reason why someone should take their time before finalizing a divorce. Time apart seeking God's will and getting healing should be the priority.

Perhaps you missed this:

It would not be an exaggeration for me to say that he's spent the whole time that they've been together being a total scumbag - on pretty much every level. He insults her - he calls her stupid - he says she's fat and unattractive (she's mildly chubby...by no means "fat") - he's cheated on her numerous times - he constantly degrades her and trashes her self esteem - he calls her hideous names - he's been physically abusive - etc... Basically - the worst you can imagine in a mate.

 

[rppearso]

in red

I believe there should be consequences too, but sometimes we humans are not the ones to do the punishing. And the Bible needs to be applied also, not just deciding for ourselves when divorce/remarriage is ok. We should not just make whimsical decisions we should pray about it but when it has become clear to divorce you need to just do it and dont look back becasue you never get that time back, I have learned that relationships are really not that hard if both people in the relationship are fullfilling there role.

Just to make this very clear- I absolutely believe that a woman (or male) should not stay in an abusive marriage. Restoration should be the prayer even though the odds look bleak. She needs to consider God's will and what the Bible says-considering what it says about remarriage in her situation and keep that in mind when she tries to figure out how long she will hope for restoration. Divorcing him in order to punish him can also be punishment for her and the kids too. Society generally would encourage someone to divorce quickly and seek marriage with another, but it may be that God wants this person to remain separated for an extended time while He works on the man.

I don't pretend to understand why physical abuse is not given as grounds for Biblical divorce and remarriage because God expects us to have common sense, the question was never raised to Jesus in the proper context, it was only asked by pharisies in a condesending manner God wants the best for us so why would he want us to stay in an abusive relationship and never be able to have sex again because your ex was a scum bag, I dont believe that to be true, I think people take scripture way to literal and way out of context why did he speak to the woman who wanted a family member healed in what appeared to be a kinda nasty tone, she was not a Jew and Jesus made a snide remark and helped her thats our inturpretation but 2000 year of context and translation can really change things thats why you have to read with common sense, people look to scripture almost as a way to free themselves from having to think objectivly, well the bible says abc 123 so therefore you should continue to be beat, why dont you try praying about it and going from there and if you pray about it the church should not doubt you especially if the circumstances are reasonable. If your friend prays about it and still wants a divorce you should support them and if they want to remarry you should also support that if he is a nice guy, she has a right to be satisfied emotionally and sexually with a nice guy, but your friend needs to consider this. This is just one more reason why someone should take their time before finalizing a divorce. Time apart seeking God's will and getting healing should be the priority.

 

[FaithfulWife]

EZoo~

I don't think you are being overly cynical at all. Here's why:

Malachi 2:14-16

14Yet you ask, Why does He reject it? Because the Lord was witness [to the covenant made at your marriage] between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously and to whom you were faithless. Yet she is your companion and the wife of your covenant [made by your marriage vows].
15And did not God make [you and your wife] one [flesh]? Did not One make you and preserve your spirit alive? And why [did God make you two] one? Because He sought a godly offspring [from your union]. Therefore take heed to yourselves, and let no one deal treacherously and be faithless to the wife of his youth.
16For the Lord, the God of Israel, says: I hate divorce and marital separation and him who covers his garment [his wife] with violence. Therefore keep a watch upon your spirit [that it may be controlled by My Spirit], that you deal not treacherously and faithlessly [with your marriage mate].

It never ceases to amaze me that in those three verses, G-d says over and over and over again that a man is not to treat the wife of his youth and his marriage partner treacherously or faithlessly or violently. I see at least three times that it says that--and if he does treat her faithlessly and violently and with lies and treachery then HE IS THE ONE BREAKING UP THE FAMILY! He is sinning just as direly and horridly as the one little time that you see in red that G-d hates divorce.

Yes, it's true G-d HATES IT when a man treats his lovely wife so harshly, abuses her emotionally, mentally, verbally and physically to the point that she finally flees in self preservation. He HATES THAT! So you're not cynical at all. You are on the mark Biblically and what he is doing is just another abuser's way of doing ANYTHING to get her back under his control.

Now, that being said, G-d does indeed miraculously change people; he's much bigger than our sinful hearts! But here's what it looks like:

"Honey I have been convicted by G-d and come to realize that the way I was treating you was horrible! You are the wife of my youth and worthy of honor, and I know that was not how I was treating you. So you were 100% right to leave and protect yourself and the kids. Please do what you have to do in order to ensure your safety and the safety of our children, and I will never bother you about this again. I'm going to be going to counseling, and attending a men's bible study, an anger management group and an abuser's groups and I'm hoping I can learn how to be a healthy loving husband, but to be honest I'm not sure if I can and I'm not even close yet. Just know that I am totally responsible for the damage and breakdown of our marriage and family, and know that I completely understand now why you did what you did. I'm truly sorry and I do hope one day you can forgive me but that may be in the future and I understand that."