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Is this law applicable....

StormyOne

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We tend to be pretty serious about "the law." Is this one applicable today?

Deut 21:18-21 If a man has a son who is hard-hearted and uncontrolled, who gives no attention to the voice of his father and mother, and will not be ruled by them, though they give him punishment: (19) Then let his father and mother take him to the responsible men of the town, to the public place; (20) And say to them, This son of ours is hard-hearted and uncontrolled, he will not give attention to us; he gives himself up to pleasure and strong drink. (21) Then he is to be stoned to death by all the men of the town: so you are to put away the evil from among you; and all Israel, hearing of it, will be full of fear.

 

tall73

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Clearly that is where the saying came from "I brought you into this world, and I can take you out! "


since it is involving the theocracy, no I suppose it is not. But the principle is still there. Rebellion among children is a big issue. It is assumed that the person must be of a fairly advanced age, not just a young child, based on the activites.

But I am glad you asked this. How do we know

a. which are in effect
b. whether the principle is the key thing
c. How can we know which have an enduring principle? and how can we know what that is?
d. How do we prevent simply keeping the ones we like. (Ie. dietary laws etc.) and not the ones we don't (head coverings, no mixing of fabrics).

I would love to see an extended conversation on this topic, with numerous examples considered! So perhaps we should post some and see how we tell.
 
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tall73

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Well let's start with these. Some from the OT, some from the NT. For each one we need to determine:


a. is it still in effect, why or why not
b. cultural rule, or principle (some might not even recognize cultural rule, but some do)
c. If principle, what is it, and how should we honor it today?

LEV 11:41 " `Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

------------
LEV 12:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

-------------------

LEV 23:39 " `So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the LORD for seven days; the first day is a day of rest, and the eighth day also is a day of rest. 40 On the first day you are to take choice fruit from the trees, and palm fronds, leafy branches and poplars, and rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in booths for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in booths 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.' "

-------------------

LEV 18:22 " `Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

-------------------

LEV 19:19 " `Keep my decrees.
" `Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" `Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" `Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

------------------

GE 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

GE 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

----------------

1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

---------------------

AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."
 
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StormyOne

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tall73 said:
Well let's start with these. Some from the OT, some from the NT. For each one we need to determine:


a. is it still in effect, why or why not
b. cultural rule, or principle (some might not even recognize cultural rule, but some do)
c. If principle, what is it, and how should we honor it today?

LEV 11:41 " `Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

NOT Applicable

------------
LEV 12:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Not applicable.... we are not Israel, this is not a theocracy, we are not wandering in the wilderness...

-------------------

LEV 23:39 " `So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the LORD for seven days; the first day is a day of rest, and the eighth day also is a day of rest. 40 On the first day you are to take choice fruit from the trees, and palm fronds, leafy branches and poplars, and rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in booths for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in booths 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.' "

Not applicable, we are not Israel.

-------------------

LEV 18:22 " `Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Applicable

-------------------

LEV 19:19 " `Keep my decrees.
" `Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" `Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" `Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Not applicable.

------------------

GE 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

GE 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Needs defining..... When God told them to kill this directive was waived...

----------------

1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

May or may not be applicable. Paul's opinion?

---------------------

AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Paul's opinion and practical approach about dealing with new converts....
 
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tall73

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StormyOne said:
LEV 11:41 " `Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

NOT Applicable

I agree, not applicable. The reason being that it was tied to the idea of clean and unclean, and temple regulations. It would seem that it was done away with. I do eat a vegetarian diet myself, but that is because I realize my obligation overall to be health.

------------
LEV 12:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

Not applicable.... we are not Israel, this is not a theocracy, we are not wandering in the wilderness...
Again, agreed, uncleanness seemed to be a function of the temple.

-------------------

LEV 23:39 " `So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the LORD for seven days; the first day is a day of rest, and the eighth day also is a day of rest. 40 On the first day you are to take choice fruit from the trees, and palm fronds, leafy branches and poplars, and rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in booths for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in booths 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.' "

Not applicable, we are not Israel.

Yeah, I generally agree. However, are we to take seriously the part about being the true Israelites? And this one is a yet unfulfilled festival. But, I am obviously not convinced enough to be doing it .

-------------------

LEV 18:22 " `Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.

Applicable

Why? Now I agree with you, but then again, this gets to the issue of principle. Why does this one endure? So far the others were more or less ceremonial things associated with the temple. This one seems to have a direct moral root.

-------------------

LEV 19:19 " `Keep my decrees.
" `Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" `Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" `Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Not applicable.

------------------

Some speculate as to why these were laws in the first place. But if we are not certain what they meant even then, how can we rule them out now? In other words, unless they are directly tied to the ceremonial law, how can we judge it?

GE 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

GE 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

Needs defining..... When God told them to kill this directive was waived...

----------------

true enough. In fact, I gathered from later clarification in the levitical law that self-defense, punishment as a governmental action etc. is permissible. In fact, even Romans 13 says the authorities do not bear the sword in vain.

1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

May or may not be applicable. Paul's opinion?

This to me is where it really gets more interesting. This is a command in the Christian era. He uses theological arguments going back to creation. He also is making an appeal to the natural order (though I am not sure that it is really nature, men can have long hair, more likely the culture of the time, . Which makes ya wonder about the whole long hair thing on Jesus).

Finally he says that we (not just him, probably his ministry partners since he next says the churches), and the churches of God have no other practice. In other words, this was not an isolated teaching.

The whole goal here seems to be the SIGN OF AUTHORITY. The God given family structure , probably thinking of the words "he shall rule over you" at the fall, is being maintained. This overall thought is also consistent with his belief that a woman would not hold authority over a man in the church--because it would go against the family structure already determined by God.

So we see 3 main thrusts

1. theological--creation
2. nature (may be a false one)
3. practice of all the church

and one underlying...the family structure, related to number one above.

Now the question is, what would a Bible author have to say to make it plain that it was NOT a cultural argument or a personal opinion?

And finally, was there any principle?

I tend to think that this was a culturally enforced norm, but based on a principle, that of the God ordained family structure. The practice (covering your head) no longer conveys the message of submission to authority, but the family structure would remain.
---------------------

AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

Paul's opinion and practical approach about dealing with new converts....

It was a practical opinion. It was more of James then just Paul's though from the text, though it seems that Paul, Peter and James were the key figures. It was also deemed to be not just their opinion. It was good to us "and to the Holy Spirit" they said when writing the letter.

I do think it was a compromise, in fact Paul did not even seem to be worried about food sacrificed to idols after this council. Though he was about sexual immorality. That one in fact some believe they took from Leviticus 18

LEV 18:24 " `Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants. 26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the aliens living among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled.

Because it included the gentiles then, some believe they would include it here. It is also from the same section that we already labeled as enduring regarding homosexual acts.

So we could say that the idols one was a compromise, the sexual immorality enduring, and the strangled animals? It refers back to Genesis 9. Is it assumedly still in force, or was that part of the already in place sacrificial service?
 
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StormyOne

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I think the strangled animals thing became obsolete when the perfect sacrifice of Christ was completed...

I agree that Paul wasn't too stressed about the food thing... again though I think he wasn't because he believed he would see Christ in his lifetime.... so there were several things that were like non-issues cause he expected Christ to return and it would be a moot point....
 
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tall73

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Oh, I did some editing on the head covering one...

anyway, i agree that he was not worried about it. But he did advise not to make your brother fall.

In other words, as a practical issue he was worried, as a theological not. because he said an idol is nothing.

1CO 10:18 Consider the people of Israel: Do not those who eat the sacrifices participate in the altar? 19 Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons too; you cannot have a part in both the Lord's table and the table of demons. 22 Are we trying to arouse the Lord's jealousy? Are we stronger than he?

1CO 10:23 "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"--but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

1CO 10:25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

1CO 10:27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake-- 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

1CO 10:31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God-- 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. 1 Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

perhaps I should modify that. He seems to be saying if it is in the meat market you can't tell, so don't stress it. This would parallel his statement about some who are weak eat only vegetables....because meat could be offered, and some would not eat any meat out of this fear.

But he doesn't want them to directly participate if they know it is, because of fear they might cause someone there to think it is alright to participate in the idol temple worship.

I also see that he thought for some time that Jesus would come in his lifetime, though later, just as with Peter we see this idea lessening, and even predictions of death. He must have also taught the Thessalonians this for them to be so worried about their loved ones dying, or the times, or worrying over having missed it. ANd Thessalonians is often dated pretty early.
 
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woobadooba

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My purpose in addressing this is to demonstrate that an underlying theme can be found in everything that God has given us, and is applicable to all generations and cultures.

Please note however, that even though the underlying themes apply to us today, that doesn't mean we have to put such instruction into practice in the same manner in which it was prescribed for the people to whom such instruction was given.

Nevertheless, I believe that depending on where one lives, such practices could still be warranted. However, it is my belief that most of these mandates are not salvific issues, althougb some could be.

LEV 11:41 " `Every creature that moves about on the ground is detestable; it is not to be eaten. 42 You are not to eat any creature that moves about on the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is detestable. 43 Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground. 45 I am the LORD who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

The underlying theme here is that it is for our benefit of health that we honor such dietary laws. For better health = a longer and happier life. God created us for life, not for death. And so the principle here is that God designed us for life, not for death. And maintaining a healthy lifestyle doesn't just foster physical betterment, but also mental and spiritual well-being.

------------
LEV 12:1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Say to the Israelites: `A woman who becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son will be ceremonially unclean for seven days, just as she is unclean during her monthly period. 3 On the eighth day the boy is to be circumcised. 4 Then the woman must wait thirty-three days to be purified from her bleeding. She must not touch anything sacred or go to the sanctuary until the days of her purification are over. 5 If she gives birth to a daughter, for two weeks the woman will be unclean, as during her period. Then she must wait sixty-six days to be purified from her bleeding.

-------------------


Again, this is a matter of healthy living. God wants His people to be clean, to care for themselves, because in caring for themselves they also care for others in that they don't contaminate them through hygienic carelessness, which induces health hazards that come by manner of disease and decay.

Thus the principle is that we should do what we can to maintain a healthy environment. By doing this we not only show that we have love for the God who created this world, but also for the health and safety of the inhabitants thereof.


LEV 23:39 " `So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the LORD for seven days; the first day is a day of rest, and the eighth day also is a day of rest. 40 On the first day you are to take choice fruit from the trees, and palm fronds, leafy branches and poplars, and rejoice before the LORD your God for seven days. 41 Celebrate this as a festival to the LORD for seven days each year. This is to be a lasting ordinance for the generations to come; celebrate it in the seventh month. 42 Live in booths for seven days: All native-born Israelites are to live in booths 43 so your descendants will know that I had the Israelites live in booths when I brought them out of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.' "

-------------------


Principle: Honor the God who made your abundance possible, and always remember, that just as He led and provided for the people of the past, He can do the same for you too. Honor Him by giving thanks to Him for the wonderful things that He has done for us all.


-------------------

LEV 19:19 " `Keep my decrees.
" `Do not mate different kinds of animals.
" `Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed.
" `Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

------------------


Principle: Do not tamper with God's design. He made things the way they are for a reason, and to tamper with God's design is to take it upon yourself to be God. I'm sure that many problems have surfaced in our environment because people have tampered with God's design in some way.


GE 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it. 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

Again, it is an issue of health, so yes, it applies.


GE 9:6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,
by man shall his blood be shed;
for in the image of God
has God made man.

----------------


I do believe in the death penality. And obviously our government does to.
But the underlying theme here is don't think to hurt or take away a life that is just as important as yours! Hence, Love your neighbor as yourself.

1CO 11:3 Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5 And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head--it is just as though her head were shaved. 6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8 For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9 neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10 For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.

The underlying principle here is that genders should not be confused! A woman has a distinct role to play in life, and so it is the same with a man. The identity of a woman is not to be swallowed up by a man and the identity of a man is not to be swalloed up by a wowman. There are women walking around today thinking themselves to be men and men thinking themselves to be women. That is not God's will! Gender-role has become a meaningless term in today's society.

1CO 11:11 In the Lord, however, woman is not independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12 For as woman came from man, so also man is born of woman. But everything comes from God. 13 Judge for yourselves: Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him, 15 but that if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For long hair is given to her as a covering. 16 If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

---------------------


Again, the underlying theme is that genders are not to be amalgamated. The man has a specific role to play in life and so it is the same with a woman. It was never God's design that a man should be a woman or a woman be a man.

AC 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

The underlying theme here is to keep oneself pure, mentally, physically, and spiritually.
 
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tall73

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woobadooba said:


The underlying theme here is that it is for our benefit of health that we honor such dietary laws. For better health = a longer and happier life. God created us for life, not for death. And so the principle here is that God designed us for life, not for death. And maintaining a healthy lifestyle doesn't just foster physical betterment, but also mental and spiritual well-being.

That may be the principle. And surely we find this principle other places, and this seems to be shown by science. However, I usually look for something that is directly related to the original command when dealing with principles. The original command was in regard to holiness. It might have been that God phrased it this way because of their limited understanding. But it seems it is possible for Him to express a health emphasis if He wanted to without going into science. Moreover, it is either a very severe indication of how important health is, or it is a bit overboard...ie...why would they be cut off from the temple and contact with the community over health?

Also, does this mean that for thousands of years following they would have no idea that this was still in effect?

These are just questions. I find this one to be difficult.




Principle: Do not tamper with God's design. He made things the way they are for a reason, and to tamper with God's design is to take it upon yourself to be God. I'm sure that many problems have surfaced in our environment because people have tampered with God's design in some way.


Yes, perhaps that could be it. A bit disturbing then that we do this more than they would have. We wear mixed fabrics all the time, use genetically modified crops, seeds, food, etc. Is it still in effect then? If your interpretation is true, then there are obvious implications for cloning.

Some have suggested it was a warning against mixing with pagan neighbors...not really sure how they got that concept....


I do believe in the death penality. And obviously our government does to.
But the underlying theme here is don't think to hurt or take away a life that is just as important as yours! Hence, Love your neighbor as yourself.

Agreed. the focus is on the value of life.

The underlying principle here is that genders should not be confused! A woman has a distinct role to play in life, and so it is the same with a man. The identity of a woman is not to be swallowed up by a man and the identity of a man is not to be swalloed up by a wowman. There are women walking around today thinking themselves to be men and men thinking themselves to be women. That is not God's will! Gender-role has become a meaningless term in today's society.


I agree that it has to do with gender roles, but I think the authority element goes beyond that. They not only have roles, but he is particularly concerned with heirarchy...Christ head of the man, man head of the woman, etc. He also mentions the hair being a sign of authority, and frankly, I don't get this part, but talks about the sake of the angels! In any case, it is true that there is some gender confusion here, but he sees it as a problem that goes beyond that. They were apparently trying ot assume some of the authority, or at least were perceived to by their actions with the hair.

Do you think there is an enduring principle regarding the structure of the family? And would that carry over to the church as in the text about a woman holding authority over a man?


The underlying theme here is to keep oneself pure, mentally, physically, and spiritually.

I don't disagree with that. But if that is the case, do some of them still apply, and how do you know? One of them, sexual immorality clearly throughout the scriptures is referenced. So that one must be enduring. The other two seem a bit sketchy.
 
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woobadooba

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why would they be cut off from the temple and contact with the community over health?

I think it has more to do with contamination. We must understand something here; they were medicinally primitive, meaning they didn't have the vaccinations that we have today. Back then people could die from what we call the common cold. Hence, such rules had more to do with the prevailing conditions that they were subject too.

Let's face it, contamination, even to the slightest degree, could have wiped them out if it weren't addressed accordingly. I see the Lord giving such instruction to ensure precautionary measures.

And as for being cut off from the temple I can certainly understand why since that was a place that was frequented by the people on a regular basis. I'm sure you're aware that where there is a crowd there is a greater chance for sustained sickness if there is any kind of contamination therein.
And when one considers how devoted the people were to their religious rituals back then, it isn't hard to believe that the temple grounds were often crowded with people.


Yes, perhaps that could be it. A bit disturbing then that we do this more than they would have. We wear mixed fabrics all the time, use genetically modified crops, seeds, food, etc. Is it still in effect then? If your interpretation is true, then there are obvious implications for cloning.

I can definately see this.



Do you think there is an enduring principle regarding the structure of the family? And would that carry over to the church as in the text about a woman holding authority over a man?

Definately!


I don't disagree with that. But if that is the case, do some of them still apply, and how do you know? One of them, sexual immorality clearly throughout the scriptures is referenced. So that one must be enduring. The other two seem a bit sketchy.

With the other two it makes sense because let's face it, eating blood is not a healthy thing to do. In fact, it has been proven that animals that have not been slaughtered properly carry disease because of the germination that takes place in the blood.

People that eat beef regularly are known to have more health problems than people who don't, mostly, I believe, because the blood is still in it.

As for foods that are offered to idols, I think the lesson here is that God doesn't want us to make internal connections with things that are profane.
 
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payattention

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This process of seeking for principles is an admirable undertaking but, as can be seen from the simple efforts here, without a standard the result is the confusion (Babylon) in which the Christian community finds itself. I do not believe God would leave the discovery of His principles to a majority vote or the influence of some authority figure. In fact, He has a much more trustworthy system that allows us to come to an objective conclusion concerning the principles that underly the character of God. He has primarily revealed Himself in His creation. If theology truly seeks to discover the principles that define the character of God it must adopt the very system that enables us to explore the primary expression of the nature of God. They process I have witnessed in the last few post can only perpetuate the confusion we see in the Christian community.
 
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payattention

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tall73 said:
The whole point is to develop a process.

If you have one ready made, why not divulge the particulars?
I did. Theologians have to discard the non-method they have adopted in the name of Revelation. Theology is in disarray because the system they have adopted is incapable of resolving conflicts of beliefs.
 
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tall73

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A. simply saying that nature is the key is not giving particulars

B. I take it then you figure we should eat meat with blood in it? Nature seems to work that way :)
C. Please give us a demonstration of the superiority of the method by addressing the above case studies.
 
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payattention

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tall73 said:
A. simply saying that nature is the key is not giving particulars

B. I take it then you figure we should eat meat with blood in it? Nature seems to work that way :)
C. Please give us a demonstration of the superiority of the method by addressing the above case studies.
The first step is to admit that the present method is not working. As long as we insist that what we have is working but we will gladly critique anything else nothing will be achieved.

How do we discover what nature is about? Do you realize that when you get to know someone you automatically get to know something, even though you can't be absolutely certain what it is, about the people who birthed and raised that individual? The same is also true when you become acquainted with something that someone has made. The thing reveals its creator. We have a foolproof and objective method for understanding nature and nature reveals its creator.

Would you call the meat example a principle or a particular? The answer to that question should answer your query.
 
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tall73

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No it doesn't answer my querry at all.

If you have a first step, you obviously have in mind later ones. So give them.

If you have no specifics, or won't address the questions in the current discussion then I am not interested in your solution. I don't plan to ask another several pages worth of questions just to have you state your view in the most vague way possible.

At first I was willing to ask questions to give you the benefit of the doubt. but you seem unwilling to give your view outright on any topic. On nearly every post you only give your views after pages of questions and clarifications and even then couch it in cryptic language. All the while you belittle the views of others. Several people have commented to me that you make no sense, and two of us have told you directly. We are not trying to offend you, but we cannot decipher your real view. Why did we tell you this? Because you were offended when you felt we didn't represent you correctly. Sorry, but if people continually misrepresent you, perhaps it is because you never say anything so as to be understood. Or are just not wanting to be pinned down. A few times we could chalk it up to crossed wires. But all the time, I don't think we can.

Judging by your post on the pulling teeth thread you indicated that pulling teeth...ie...getting views out of someone, was a good thing. That we should all be made to do it so we can be enlightened as you were.

Tall, I am an educator and a scholar. I am tired of Christians who "know the truth" who can only respond with anger or embarassment when they are confronted with probing questions about what they claim to know. This is because no one bothered to "pull teeth" with them. They were told what to think but not how to think. I asked every possible question I could think of and answered them before coming to my conclusions. I will not give people fish but help them learn how to fish. Most don't know how, as can be seen from their reactions to questions.

Again when I asked you to be more clear you said:

It is not that simple. When the writer chooses to write and some are offended the writer may be banished to Australia or have his integrity challenged and be accused of fraudulently adopting an icon to which he is not entitled.

Sorry, but you are not being persecuted for your views alone. You are being persecuted because you immediately run down the view of anyone else as just the same old poor Adventist Scholarship. Then proceed not to set them straight, but ramble on for pages refusing to be pinned down on the simplest statements.

It took us probably 10 pages across about 4 threads for you to finally just say that you only accept two verses of the Bible for sure, those being the first two. Don't you imagine we could have saved a lot of time if you would just say that?

Moreover, you addressed that pulling teeth thread to me personally, and never explained why. I am now addressing this to you, and WILL explain why. I think you need to reform the way you continually post to run down whatever anyone else says, and quit calling yourself the answer to the worlds lack of scholarship. If you want us to respect you, try actually putting your views instead of hiding them. Then we can see if you have anything scholarly to offer. Education is not making people take 5 times as long to get your views out of you then what it should take if you would just say them. That is not learning, it is annoyance.

And it is not just that people are annoyed because they are embarassed that you challenged their views. They are annoyed because you treat them so didactically, and with such condescension that you are insufferable.

Tonight alone you have proposed your theory of why Jesus has not come yet on a thread expressly indicated to not be for that, or any other controversial view. It was said to be for sharing what Jesus has done in your life. This was despite the fact you had already been ASKED to explain it on another thread, or had the option to post a whole new thread. And then when you did post it , you keep up the same method...a bit here...a bit later after more questions, maybe something here.

If you don't want to express your views, then stop shopping them around as the solution to the Adventist theological ineptitude.

To those who may be reading this and feel it is direct, it is meant to be. It may not be fair to apply a theological test to each person here. But neither is it fair for people to be run out of the forum because someone is on a personal crusade to question their beliefs, when clearly some do not want to be questioned. And for those of us who want questions, we would at least like you to put your own view after you are so strident in belittling the views of others.


I am reporting my own post to the moderator. If he feels I overstepped, that is fine. But one way or another this should be addressed. Intentionally being vague and then running down others is not acceptable behavior. I was among those who feel that any sincere questions are fair game. I still think that. But an open discussion is not furthered by being elusive.
 
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daveleau

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Am I right to understand that you, payattention, are trying to promote independent (not independent of scripture, but independent of previous theologian) thought on the issue rather than giving the answer (give a man a fish...he eats for a day...)?
 
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tall73

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daveleau said:
Am I right to understand that you, payattention, are trying to promote independent (not independent of scripture, but independent of previous theologian) thought on the issue rather than giving the answer (give a man a fish...he eats for a day...)?

I mean no disrespect, but please see if you are able to discern his view from the information given so far.

See if you can answer the questions on the laws given simply by a vague statement that says that God's creation is all you need to know. Which by the way is his answer to everything so far. He only accepts, by his own admission, two verses of the Bible for sure. Those are the first two, referring to God's creation.

This gives no methodology for anything that I can tell in regards to this post.

Independent thought is fine. But it should be independent thought about the SUBJECT, not independent guessing about what is in HIS MIND.

So far in the subject we listed some laws, and then looked for a means of interpreting based on the data itself, and what we now about the sources of the laws.

Now I know you are not familiar with SDA teaching necessarily. But in so doing we almost universally acknowledged that one aspect of traditional teaching is probably INCORRECT. That is not dependent thinking. We are trying to find a way to understand it, which was stated from the beginning.

Now contrast that with the response of payattention. He has STIPULATED that we are all just confused, and that his view is best. He takes great pains to show that we don't have a system..which was acknowledged from the beginning...as though this were a great revelation. He then states that all you need to do is look at the natural order of creation. This is not independent thought. It is his standard hermeneutic for anthing.

But he gives no evidence, or even gives his full view on how it interprets anything. Is that truly more independent than what we are doing?

I don't think so.

And what purpose would be served by teaching people to catch fish so to speak in a thread where the poster clearly stated NO CONTROVERSY....

here is the link.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2149250-the-all-about-jesus-thread.html
 
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