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Is this justified?

cenimo

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My point is precisely this: that America appears to be embracing the values that it condemns its enemies for.

Like feeding the Taliban held at Guantanamo eating better than their fellow countrymen at home eat?

Embracing the values it condemns its enemies for, huh. Implying we did things to our POW's that the WW II Japanese Medical Battallion did to theirs. Not hardly.

How about the German POW's that were kept in Wisconsins and decided to stay after the war? Really bad treatement was certainly what convinced them to do that.
 
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datan

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Today at 10:31 PM Ryder said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701417#post701417)

In response to my own comment I suppose blind revenge is wrong, nevertheless your nitpicking on a few americans who kicked some guys (with all probability not intending to kill) who died from blood clots. These guys they kicked represented (as former soldiers) the enemy of 9-11 butchery and they got a kick in the stomach, you'd have perfect restraint if you found people who supported mass murderers? And they are trying to find these mass murderers, anyways you compare that incident to rapes, murders, & the support to hamas & friends Saddam throws around ???? Forget the thousands Saddam killed, we've got two dead under Americas watch, hold the phone, impeach the president...


Firstly, why are you already defending the murderers? (the death cert was homicide). Do you really think there's nothing wrong with torture and murder, or is it the Americans-can't do-anything-wrong attitude?

Secondly, let's reverse the situation. American pilot drops bombs over Iraqi infantry troops, killing thousands of them. American pilot is shot down. American pilot is interrogated by Iraqi officers, is kicked in the guts, and dies.

My guess is that you won't be so forgiving of the Iraqis as you are of the American killers would you? Would you be defending the Iraqis? Yes or no?
 
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datan

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Today at 10:32 PM cenimo said this in Post #21 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701420#post701420)

Datan

Like feeding the Taliban held at Guantanamo eating better than their fellow countrymen at home eat?

Embracing the values it condemns its enemies for, huh. Implying we did things to our POW's that the WW II Japanese Medical Battallion did to theirs. Not hardly.

How about the German POW's that were kept in Wisconsins and decided to stay after the war? Really bad treatementi was certainly what convinced them to do that.

First off, let's not compare WWII to today. We're talking about what's happening today, not what happened 50 years ago.

Secondly, did anyone ask the Taliban whether they'd rather be well-fed but "oh, but we're going to torture you, deprive you of sleep, to stuff to your extremeties, kick you in the guts. Some of you might die, but hey's that's life", or back home and free and maybe not-so-well-fed?
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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fragmentsofdreams

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Today at 04:31 PM Ryder said this in Post #20 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701417#post701417)

In response to my own comment I suppose blind revenge is wrong, nevertheless your nitpicking on a few americans who kicked some guys (with all probability not intending to kill) who died from blood clots. These guys they kicked represented (as former soldiers) the enemy of 9-11 butchery and they got a kick in the stomach, you'd have perfect restraint if you found people who supported mass murderers? And they are trying to find these mass murderers, anyways you compare that incident to rapes, murders, & the support to hamas & friends Saddam throws around ???? Forget the thousands Saddam killed, we've got two dead under Americas watch, hold the phone, impeach the president...

Does the common soldier bear responsibility for the actions of those their government associates with or assists? These dead soldiers didn't plan 9-11; they didn't execute 9-11. Their only connection to 9-11 is that they joined the army of a government that gave refuge to Osama bin Laden.
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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David Gould

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A sad day for democracy.

 

As to rough FBI and police interrogations, I do not support them, either, so I do not see the relevance. Such things should not be tolerated in a democratic society.

 

I agree that the eqating of the USA with Iraq is way over the top. However, I also see the point. If we embrace those ways and means then what exactly are we fighting for?

 

One day all will live free and without fear of their fellows. But only if we fight for it and oppose everything that retards that aim.
 
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Freodin

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The point of the objections against these tortures is not to defend the Taliban or Saddam or bin Laden or whomever.

What they did and do is wrong. That´s it.

And if you do the same it is still wrong. "They started it!" is no excuse.

You claim to be the good guys, don´t you? So you should act like it.
 
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datan

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Forget the thousands Saddam killed, we've got two dead under Americas watch, hold the phone, impeach the president... [/B]

come to think of it, someone should take responsibility for this. Not necessarily the president, maybe the Defense secretary (if it was committed by US troops), or John Ashcroft (if it was committed by CIA/FBI agents). Why: sanctioned torture and killings is so reprehensible by the rest of the world that unless you send out the message decisively that it will not be tolerated, people will have reason to judge the integrity of your adminstration. Is that attitude so pervasive throughout your administration, that torture and murder is okay? You have to hold someone accountable.

I'm surprised you fail to see how anti-American this is, and how it goes against everything your country once stood for.

I remember watching the movie The Siege. The short summary is:
- terrorists attack in US city
- military takes over US city after martial law is declared
- general jails all Arab-Americans
- general tortures terrorist suspect & shoots him
- general is arrested at the end of the movie by FBI agent
- even general's troops refuse to obey his orders at the end

well, one point of the movie was that no matter how dire the circumstances (terrorist attacks, people getting blown up etc.), America does not and will not tolerate torture and murder of suspects. Due process cannot be circumvented. America is about the good guys, even generals are not above the law.

Look how far your country has come since then, to a point where torture and murder of suspects 'seem right' by ordinary Americans like yourselves, and are even defended. That torture and murder of suspects is so wrong whatever the circumstances that it has to be self-evident for a nation that prides itself on its freedom and rights.


That movie was made in 1998, and in retrospect was prescient. Quoting:

Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: Are you people insane? What are you talkin' about?
General William Devereaux: The time has come for one man to suffer in order to save hundreds of lives.
Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: One Man? What about two? What about six? How about public executions, huh?
General William Devereaux: Feel free to leave whenever you like, Agent Hubbard.
Anthony 'Hub' Hubbard: Come on General, you've lost men, I've lost men, but you can't do this. What if what they really want .. what if they don't even want the Sheik? Have you considered that, huh? What if what they really want is for us to herd children into stadiums like we're doing? And put soldiers on the street and have Americans looking over their shoulders? Bend the law, shred the Constitution just a little bit. Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have bled and fought and died for is over. And they've won. They've already won!
General William Devereaux: Escort him out.

Because if we torture him, General, we do that and everything we have bled and fought and died for is over. And they've won. They've already won!

Here's a more detailed plot summary.
http://www.ram.org/ramblings/movies/siege.html
 
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ACougar

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Today at 04:21 PM gwyyn said this in Post #16

Hmmm ok so answer this, what exactly constitutes torture to you??


I"ll answer first raping one's loved ones in front of the prisoner, hanging them by arms/legs in extreme conditions, poking, prodding with sharp instruments, extreme physical blows, removal of extremities.


sleep deprivation, standing/kneeling while blindfolded I don't have any problem with.


Pray your never suspected of being a terrorist. Somehow I think you'd change your mind if you were the one bound, hooded and gaged for a few days.  Not to mention a few "superficial" blows to your lower extremities.  What I really want to know is what is being done to those responsible for these murders and why in the heck isn't our "Liberal" media all over this?
[/B]
 
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cenimo

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First off, let's not compare WWII to today. We're talking about what's happening today, not what happened 50 years ago.

OK...tell us all about Hezbollahs treatment of Colonel Higgins....oh, I see that was an American being tortured by Middle Easterners, so no sympathy there.....

The Americans shot down in Colombia? No thread about that...

Pearl, the jounralist, killd by his captors...no thread protesting his treatment...

hmm, and just a few weeks ago o a few of us were criticized for saying this category (nes and Current Events) takes on an Anti-American flavor... someone will most assuredely reply here that this thread doesn't reflect that either...

yeah, right
 
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datan

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The Americans shot down in Colombia? No thread about that...

You're wrong about this. I started a thread on this. Look at what I wrote.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/35669.html
Are we playing selective amnesia now?

This forum only goes back to about March last year, Pearl was killed slightly more than a year ago.



Anyway, first off, Hezbollahs, Colombian rebels, and the like have never pretended to be the bastions of freedom and democracy, and used that as a prextext or excuse to invade other countries.

Secondly, I'll ask you this directly: by bringing up these terrorists organisations, are you comparing America's activities to their activities? My premise is that America should act far better than these terrorists organisations, but if you want to play "they're doing that too" finger-pointing, then you are directly or indirectly making the comparison of America and these groups.
 
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Nelzador

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Woah there cenimo. I didn't create this thread with anti-American intentions in mind. I just wanted to see what people's opinions were about torture from a Christian and non-Christian perspective based on this news article.

If you want to start a thread about the other issues you mentioned, then go ahead. Don't complain about the lack of threads on topics you want to address, just start the threads and people will respond.
 
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datan

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okay, let me try to answer the point about anti-American flavour--at least in this thread.
It's not about being anti-American. Its about being fair and rationale.

First off, America claims to be "God's gift to humanity" or something like that. I can't think of many terrorist organisations who mae the same claim. Americans pride themselves on their freedoms and rights, and I've heard the argument of "bringing American values and freedom" to Iraq.

Jesus said:
Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
3"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Get it? With the same moral standards that you judge other countries, you will be judged by the same standards. Why worry about torture, killings in other countries, when the same is happening in your own backyard? In other words, don't be a hypocrite.

Other countries have horrible human rights records--I'll be the first to admit that eg. Pakistan, Israel, Russia, China, Iraq, N Korea. But they don't go around the world calling other countries "axis of evil", and point out other countries terrible human rights records in their annual addresses to their congress.

In short--no body likes a hypocrite. If it were China going around the world bashing Pakistan for its human rights records, you'll see anti-China threads from me as well. Therefore, I'm not anti-America per se, but I'm just highlighting the hypocritical stand that America is undertaking. Can you not see the difference.

Secondly, we expect much more from America, one of the great Western democracies. When we think of Saudi Arabia, Russia, China, Iraq, etc. we know that prisoner abuse is a matter of routine. We expect it--as well as other democracies--to conduct itself better than a terrorist organisation. If it were a suspect killed in British custody, I would be condemning it as well. Therefore, again, I'm not anti-American per se, but I just expect a higher standard of conduct from the Western democracies.
 
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cenimo

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I didn't say you created it with that intent.... it just gets those kind of replies... it's just the kind of thread that is a draw for the anti-American contingency here

sure, I could start threads on those other topics, that is not the point however...


datan
it's called counter-terroroism....the only thing terrorists understand is terrorism...

let's say that the FBI knew there was a suitcase bomb somewhere in, oh - The United Nations building and was going to go off within the hour...and one of the people involved with having planted this bomb is in police custody or the custody of the Army...now, do you expect them to play Mr Nice Guy?

the combat situation dictates maneuver possibillities
 
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datan

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I guess we can say that the difference is that there was no ticking suitcase. The guy was just a foot-soldier, and he was kicked to death.

What does a foot-soldier who has spent the last one and a half years on an air base know about current terrorist plots?

They weren't looking for specific information, they were just beating him up "fishing".

If he were someone important, they wouldn't have let him died so easily.

Look at the quote from the movie that I posted on page 3. In 1998, that was the wrong thing to do. In 2003, that's tolerable. Have moral standards really changed that much in 5 years?
 
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