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Is this justified?

Nelzador

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article taken from here

American military officials acknowledged yesterday that two prisoners captured in Afghanistan in December had been killed while under interrogation at Bagram air base north of Kabul – reviving concerns that the US is resorting to torture in its treatment of Taliban fighters and suspected al-Qa'ida operatives.

A spokesman for the air base confirmed that the official cause of death of the two men was "homicide", contradicting earlier accounts that one had died of a heart attack and the other from a pulmonary embolism.

The men's death certificates, made public earlier this week, showed that one captive, known only as Dilawar, 22, from the Khost region, died from "blunt force injuries to lower extremities complicating coronary artery disease" while another captive, Mullah Habibullah, 30, suffered from blood clot in the lung that was exacerbated by a "blunt force injury".

US officials previously admitted using "stress and duress" on prisoners including sleep deprivation, denial of medication for battle injuries, forcing them to stand or kneel for hours on end with hoods on, subjecting them to loud noises and sudden flashes of light and engaging in culturally humiliating practices such as having them kicked by female officers.

While the US claims this still constitutes "humane" treatment, human rights groups including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch have denounced it as torture as defined by international treaty. The US has also come under heavy criticism for its reported policy of handing suspects over to countries such as Jordan, Egypt or Morocco, where torture techniques are an established part of the security apparatus. Legally, Human Rights Watch says, there is no distinction between using torture directly and subcontracting it out.

Some American politicians have argued that torture could be justified in this case if it helped prevent terror attacks on US citizens. Jonathan Turley, a prominent law professor at George Washington University, countered that embracing torture would be "suicide for a nation once viewed as the very embodiment of human rights".

Torture is part of a long list of concerns about the Bush administration's respect for international law, after the extrajudicial killing of al-Qa'ida suspects by an unmanned drone in Yemen and the the indefinite detention of "enemy combatants" at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, a number of whom have committed or attempted to commit suicide.

President Bush appeared to encourage extra-judicial solutions in his State of the Union address in January when he talked of al-Qa'ida members being arrested or meeting "a different fate". "Let's put it this way," he said in a tone that appalled many, "they are no longer a problem to the United States and our friends and allies."

---END---

Is torture justified in this case? Has the aftermath of 9/11 created an almost equally wicked attitude in the very people who were not so long ago victims of the attack?


p.s apologies if this has already been discussed.
 

datan

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I guess when you sink to the level of your enemies, they have won.

someone was talking about bringing American values to Iraq...wonder whether the Iraqis will notice the difference with these values: detention without trial, extrajudicial execution, torture to death, bribing people/countries to do things your way
 
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Ryder

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I guess when you sink to the level of your enemies, they have won.

someone was talking about bringing American values to Iraq...wonder whether the Iraqis will notice the difference with these values: detention without trial, extrajudicial execution, torture to death, bribing people/countries to do things your way

Oh I know, I can hardly tell America and Iraq apart these days... :rolleyes:
 
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datan

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my original point isn't that America is Iraq. My point was that the values that America seems to be embracing seems to be the very values that Iraq is associated with. I wonder how Bush will explain to the average Iraqi: "No, no, we only torture our enemies. Those who are not our enemies have nothing to fear from us." Well, Saddam tortured his enemies as well.
 
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Ryder

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Saddam tortures and murders people en mass to maintain his iron fist dictatorship and thwart dissent.

The US puts some jerks under duress because they may know things that could save future lives.

The people Saddam tortures are often simply politically oppossed to him.

The US kicked some talibani in the gut that formerly fought our soldiers and supported people that killed thousands of innocents.

The connection is pretty weak
 
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cenimo

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A few years ago, Hezbollah treated US MArine Colonel William Higgins a lot worse than this...and then killed him...by hanging from a thin wire...and sent the video to the CIA...where's the "Is this Jusitfied" thread about that one?

or how about Richard Stetham... he was the Navy Seal that was beat to death on a hijacked airliner and then thrown on the runway as it took off to its nexr destination...

how about the captured female Air Force personnel during Desert Storm that were raped by their captors?
 
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datan

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Today at 10:12 PM Ryder said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701373#post701373)

Saddam tortures and murders people en mass to maintain his iron fist dictatorship and thwart dissent.

The US puts some jerks under duress because they may know things that could save future lives.

The people Saddam tortures are often simply politically oppossed to him.

The US kicked some talibani in the gut that formerly fought our soldiers and supported people that killed thousands of innocents.

The connection is pretty weak


In short: Saddam tortures those who are a threat to him. Your country tortures those who are a threat to you.

Is that fair?
 
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gwyyn

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No, just wondering why it's so wrong for our government to use sleep deprivation and such to get informormation that could lead to other arrests before more attacks happen to innocent individuals.

I mean if this was really a human rights issues, I would expect to see more griping over the Police using psychlogical techniques to get people to confess to crimes they may have or not committed.
 
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datan

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Today at 10:13 PM cenimo said this in Post #11 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701376#post701376)

A few years ago, Hezbollah treated American Colonel Higgins or Higginson a lot worse than this...and then killed him...by hanging from a thing wire...and sent the video to the CIA...where's the "Is this Jusitfied" thread about that one?

or how about Richard Stetham... he was the Navy Seal that was beat to death on a hijacked airliner and then thrown on the runway as it took off to its nexr destination...

how about the captured female Air Force personnel during Desert Storm that were raped by their captors?

as I said, when you become like your enemies ...
Sure, feel free to start a thread about atrocities committed to Americans. This is a thread about atrocities committed by Americans.


My point is precisely this: that America appears to be embracing the values that it condemns its enemies for.
 
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Ryder

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Is the killer of a killer a murderer? Watch you don't start defending those who would see you dead. There needs to be restraint and justice and such, but the death of a few talibanis from superficial blows in POW camps is hardly the injustice of the century.
 
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gwyyn

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Hmmm ok so answer this, what exactly constitutes torture to you??


I"ll answer first raping one's loved ones in front of the prisoner, hanging them by arms/legs in extreme conditions, poking, prodding with sharp instruments, extreme physical blows, removal of extremities.


sleep deprivation, standing/kneeling while blindfolded I don't have any problem with.
 
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datan

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Today at 10:18 PM gwyyn said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701391#post701391)

No, just wondering why it's so wrong for our government to use sleep deprivation and such to get informormation that could lead to other arrests before more attacks happen to innocent individuals.

I mean if this was really a human rights issues, I would expect to see more griping over the Police using psychlogical techniques to get people to confess to crimes they may have or not committed.


someone dying after getting kicked in the stomach is hardly sleep deprivation. Its torture, by any definition. Its physical and definitely not merely psychological.

BTW, last I checked, due process as guaranteed by the 14th Amendment still holds. It used to be the case where suspects couldn't be interrogated without the presence of their lawyers (and anything obtained by duress would be inadmissable in court). However, with the current administration, that is no longer clear (ie. that a lawyer has to be present during interrogation).
 
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datan

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Today at 10:21 PM gwyyn said this in Post #16 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701400#post701400)

Hmmm ok so answer this, what exactly constitutes torture to you??


I"ll answer first raping one's loved ones in front of the prisoner, hanging them by arms/legs in extreme conditions, poking, prodding with sharp instruments, extreme physical blows, removal of extremities.


sleep deprivation, standing/kneeling while blindfolded I don't have any problem with.


Well, I'd consider kicking-someone-in-his-guts-until-he-dies as torture. Funny you mentioned extremities...one prisoner died after something done to or with his extremities, as noted in the news report. One can only speculate what it was that he died.
 
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datan

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Today at 10:20 PM Ryder said this in Post #15 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=701397#post701397)

Is the killer of a killer a murderer? Watch you don't start defending those who would see you dead. There needs to be restraint and justice and such, but the death of a few talibanis from superficial blows in POW camps is hardly the injustice of the century.

superficial blows? How can kicking someone in the guts be a superficial blow? The fact that someone dies from those blows mean it ain't superficial, by any shot.

Firslt, it is a very slippery slope. Once you start thinking like that, you'll think, okay, a few dozen prisoners died, no big deal. Then, its a few hundred prisoners dying, gee no big deal either. Then, its a few thousand prisoners dying, then its "okay lets flip the channel".

Secondly, torture is illegal under international law. America is breaking international law. Period. Therefore, it should not lecture other countries about upholding international law.

Thirdly, its the whole being hypocritical issue. If you sanction torture as a valid means of interrogation, what right to you have to criticise other countries which do the same?
 
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Ryder

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In response to my own comment I suppose blind revenge is wrong, nevertheless your nitpicking on a few americans who kicked some guys (with all probability not intending to kill) who died from blood clots. These guys they kicked represented (as former soldiers) the enemy of 9-11 butchery and they got a kick in the stomach, you'd have perfect restraint if you found people who supported mass murderers? And they are trying to find these mass murderers, anyways you compare that incident to rapes, murders, & the support to hamas & friends Saddam throws around ???? Forget the thousands Saddam killed, we've got two dead under Americas watch, hold the phone, impeach the president...
 
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