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Is this Covenant Theology?

Discussion in 'Covenant Theology' started by Daniel Marsh, May 31, 2019.

  1. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Old Testament Titles and Attributes of Israel Which Are,
    In the New Testament, Referred to the Christian Church
    The Beloved of God
    A. Israel Is Beloved of God
    Exodus 15:13/Dueteronomy 33:3/Ezra 3:11
    B. Disobedient Israel Is Not Beloved of God
    Leviticus 26:28, 30/Jerimiah 12:8/Jerimiah 16:5/Hosea 9:15/Amos 9:7/Mathhew
    3:7/Phillipians 3:2/1 Thessalonians 2:14-16/Titus 1:10
    C. The Christians Are Beloved of God
    Romans 9:25/Ephesians 5:1/Colossians 3:12/1 John 3:1
    The Children of God
    A. Israelites Are the Children of God
    Exodus 4:22/Deuteronomy 14:1/Isaiah 1:2, 4/Isaish 63:8/ Jeremiah 31:9/Hosea 11:1
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the Children of God
    Deuteronomy 32:5/John 8:39, 42, 44
    C. The Christians Are the Children of God
    John 1:12/John 11:52/Romans 8:14, 16/2 Corinthians 6:18/Galatians 3:26/Galatians
    4:5, 6, 7/Philipians 2:15/1 John 3:1
    The Field of God
    A. Israel Is the Field of God
    Jeremiah 12:10
    B. The Christians Are the Field of God
    1 Corinthians 3:9
    The Flock of God and of the Messiah
    A. Israel Is the Flock of God and of the Messiah
    Psalms 78:52/Psalms 80:1/Isaiah 40:11/Jeremiah 23:1, 2, 3/Jeremiah 31:10/ Ezekiel
    34:12, 15, 16/ Micah 5:4/ Zechariah 10:3
    B. The Christians Are the Flock of God and of the Messiah
    John 10:14, 16/Hebrews 13:20/1 Peter 2:25/ 1 Peter 5:2, 3
    The House of God
    A. Israel Is the House of God
    Numbers 12:7
    B. The Christians Are the House of God
    1 Timothy 3:15/Hebrews 3:2, 5, 6/Hebrews 10:21/1 Peter 4:17
    The Kingdom of God
    A. Israel Is the Kingdom of God
    Exodus 19:6/1 Chronicles 17:14/ 1 Chronicles 28:5
    B. Disobedient Israel Is Not the Kingdom of God
    Matthew 8:11, 12/Matthew 21:43
    C. The Christians Are the Kingdom of God
    Romans 14:17/1 Corinthians 4:20/Colossians 4:11/Revelation 1:6
    The People of God
    A. Israelites Are the People of God
    Exodus 6:7/Deuteronomy 27:9/2 Samuel 7:23/Jeremiah 11:4
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the People of God
    Hosea 1:9/Jeremiah 5:10
    C. The Christians Are the People of God
    Romans 9:25/2 Corinthians 6:16/Ephesians 4:12/ Ephesians 5:3/2 Thessalonians 1:10/
    Titus 2:14
    The Priests of God
    A. The Israelites Are the Priests of God
    Exodus 19:6
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the Priests of God
    1 Samuel 2:28, 30/Lamantations 4:13,16/Ezekiel 44:10, 13/Hosea 4:6/Malachi 2:2, 4,
    8, 9
    C. The Christians Are the Priests of God
    1 Peter 2:5, 9/Revelation 1:6/Revelation 5:10
    The Vineyard of God
    A. Israel Is the Vineyard of God
    Isaiah 5:3, 4, 5, 7/ Jeremiah 12:10
    B. The Christians Are the Vineyard of God
    Luke 20:16
    The Wife (or Bride) of God
    A. Israel Is the Wife (or Bride) of God
    Isaiah 54:5, 6/Jeremiah 12:10
    B. Disobedient Israel is Not the Wife (or Bride) of God
    Jeremiah 3:8/Hosea 2:2
    C. The Christians Are the Wife (or Bride) God
    2 Corinthians 11:2/Ephesians 5:31, 2
    The Children of Abraham
    A. The Israelites Are the Children of Abraham
    2 Chronicles 20:7/Psalms 105:6/Isaiah 41:8
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the Children of Abraham
    John 8:39/Romans 9:6, 7/Galations 4:25, 30
    C. The Christians Are the Children of Abraham
    Romans 4:11, 16/Galatians 3:7, 29/Galatians 4:23, 28, 31

    The Chosen People
    A. The Israelites Are the Chosen People
    Deuteronomy 7:7/Deuteronomy 10:15/ Deuteronomy 14:2/Isaiah 43:20, 21
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the Chosen People
    Deuteronomy 31:17/ 2 Kings 17:20/ 2 Chronicles 25:7/Psalms 78:59/Jeremiah
    6:30/Jeremiah 7:29/ Jeremiah 14:10
    C. The Christians Are the Chosen People
    Colossians 3:12/1 Peter 2:9
    The Circumcised
    A. The Israelites Are the Circumcised
    Genesis 17:10, 13/ Judges 15:18
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not the Circumcised
    Jeremiah 9:25/Romans 2:25, 28/Philippians 3:2
    C. The Christians Are the Circumcised
    Romans 2:29/Philippians 3:3/Colossians 2:11
    Israel
    A. Israel Is Israel
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Israelites
    Numbers 15:30, 31/Deuteromy 18:19/Acts 3:23/Romans 9:6
    C. The Christians Are Israel
    John 11:50, 51, 52/1 Corinthians 10:1/Galatians 6:15, 16/Ephesians 2:12, 19
    Jerusalem
    A. Jerusalem Is the City and Mother of Israel
    Psalms 149:2/Isaiah 12:6/Isaiah 49:18, 20, 22/Isaiah 51:18/Lamentations 4:2
    B. Jerusalem Is The City and Mother of Christian
    Galatians 4:26/Hebrews 12:22
    The Jews
    A. Israelites Are Jews
    Ezra 5:1/Jeremiah 34:8, 9/ Zechariah 8:22, 23
    B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not Jews
    Romans 2:28/Revalation 2:9/Revalation 3:9
    C. Christians Are Jews
    Romans 2:29
    The New Covenant
    A. The New Covenant Is With Israel
    Jeremiah 31:31, 33
    B. The New Covenant Is with the Christians
    Luke 22:20/1 Corinthians 11:25/2 Corinthians 3:6/Hebrews 8:6, 8, 10
    An Olive Tree
    A. Israel Is An Olive Tree
    Jeremiah 11:16/ Hosea 14:6
    B. The Christians Are An Olive Tree
    Romans 11:24
    Section 2
    Old Testament Verses Referring to Israel Which Are Quoted
    in the New Testament As Referring to the Christians
    Quote # 1: Leviticus 26:11, 12/Ezra 37:27/2 Corinthians 6:16
    Quote # 2: Deuteronomy 30:12-14/Romans 10:6-8
    Quote # 3: Deuteronomy 31:6/Hebrews 13:5
    Quote # 4: Deuteronomy 32:36/Psalms 135:14/Hebrews 10:30
    Quote # 5: Psalms 22:22/Hebrews 2:12
    Quote # 6: Psalms 44:22/Romans 8:36
    Quote # 7: Psalms 95:7-11/Hebrews 3:7-11
    Quote # 8: Psalms 130:8/ Titus 2:14
    Quote # 9: Isaiah 28:16/Romans 10:11/Ephesisans 2:20/ 1 Peter 2:6
    Quote # 10: Isaiah 49:8/2 Corinthians 6:2
    Quote # 11: Isaiah 52:7/Romans 10:15
    Quote # 12: Isaiah 54:1/Galatians 4:27
    Quote # 13: Jeremiah 31:31-34/Hebrews 8:8-12
    Quote # 14: Hosea 1:10 & 2:23/Romans 9:25-26/1 Peter 2:10
    Quote # 15: Hosea 13:14/1 Corinthians 15:55
    Quote # 16: Joel 2:32/Romans 10:13
    Section 3
    Old Testament Ethical Commands to Israel Which Are Quoted
    In the New Testament As Applying to the Church
    Quote # 1: Exodus 16:18/2 Corinthians 8:15
    Quote # 2: Leviticus 11:45 & 19:2/1 Peter 1:16
    Quote # 3: Deuteronomy 5:16/Ephesians 6:2-3
    Quote # 4: Deuteronomy 17:7, 19:19, 22:24 & 24:7/1 Corinthians 5:13
    Quote # 5: Deuteronomy 19:15/2 Corinthians 13:1/1 Timothy 5:19
    Quote # 6: Isaiah 35:3/Hebrews 12:12
    Quote # 7: Isaiah 48:20 & 52:11/2 Corinthians 6:17
    http://www.revealinglifetruth.org/uploads/6/9/0/5/69052901/the_church_is_israel_now.pdf
     
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  2. crossnote

    crossnote Berean Supporter

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    Not all Covenant Theology is Replacement Theology. Your link looks like a militant form of the latter.
     
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  3. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    There is a 'Biblical' Covenant Theology, and there is a 'form' of Covenant Theology that only 'appears' to be Biblical ... what is presented above I would categorize as the latter.
     
  4. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    The interesting thing about Covenant theology is that it talks much about the covenants but doesn't really try to understand them in a literal sense.

    Replacement theology tries to apply the promises that Jehovah made to other parties to themselves, taking those promises away from those who were a party to the covenant.

    While both fans of Covenant and Replacement theology admit that they are sinners in need of a Savior, none think their sins are anywhere near as bad as those of the Israelites. Sort of along the lines of the venial/mortal sin distinction put together by Rome.
     
  5. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    thank you all
     
  6. Jake S.

    Jake S. New Member

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    Hi Jack, I'm new to the forum, so please be patient. In the book of Galatians, Paul states: " ... for these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar ... Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise (Gal. 4:21-31).

    Firstly, Mount Sinai and Hagar are connected (one covenant). Then we have "Isaac ... of promise (the other covenant). These seem to be the "two covenants." We know that Hagar was not the promised son (works of the flesh). Then we have "Isaac ... of promise (faith which works). Would not these two covenants be about an experience of the heart, not dispensations?

    For example, we have Paul stating in Galatians 3:17: "And this I say, that the law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect." These seem to be synonymous terms (covenant-promise). Would not the promise and the covenant be one and the same? ... I believe so (New Covenant).

    But what about Mount Sinai and Hagar? It seems simply enough, Mount Sinai and Hagar represent the Old Covenant. For example, Moses repeated the words of God in Exodus 19:5 at Mount Sinai. "Now therefore, if you will indeed obey [listen to] My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be a special treasure to Me above all people; for all the earth is Mine." The people responded, "All that the Lord has spoken we will do" (Ex. 19:8). We know that failed miserably at keeping God's promise by making their own promise. They shut out God's covenant-promise by making their own ("we will do").

    On the other hand in Genesis 15:5-6: "Then He brought him outside and said, “Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
    6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness."

    Old Covenant =John 6:28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
    New Covenant = John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

    NEW COVENANT = Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant [promise] that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

    Remember, both covenants were with Abraham in Galatians 4. So, the two covenants must be about an experience of the heart, not dispensations. The New is God's faithfulness and promises. The Old is man's unfaithfulness and their futile promises (I will do this, I will do that).

    Jake S.
     
  7. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    Hi Jake I think you are reading a little too much into Galatians 4
     
  8. Jake S.

    Jake S. New Member

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    Hi Thomas, thank you for your response. Please explain your interpretation of Sinai, Hagar, bondwoman, freewoman, Isaac, the two covenants. ... There's a lot there, my brother. Too much? (with kind inflection). Paul, as He does so often, takes us back to the Old Testament to view the storylines regarding the understanding of the two covenants. Hence, "a little too much" is called for us to survey in Galatians 4. And it's powerful good news. Blessings, Jake S.
     
  9. Dr. Jack

    Dr. Jack Well-Known Member

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    Many people THINK the Old Covenant was about keeping the law, yet NOTHING could be farther from the truth.

    In Galatians, Paul makes it clear that the old covenant was a schoolmaster. It was aimed at the flesh because that is what we see about ourselves. Yet, it showed the need for the Redeemer. Christ is that personification of the new covenant. In Him is life. In Him is the promise of eternal life.
     
  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    Please accept this as an answer to your question not an insult.

    When my kids were in school and had a question with their homework and asked for help, both of us (me and my wife) would guide them in the direction of the answer but leave finding the exact solution to their efforts. This has served them well as they both excelled in their studies.

    So, I do the same with you Jake. Look at Galatians 4:24. It clearly states that the " Sinai, Hagar, bondwoman, freewoman, Isaac, the two covenants..." is an allegory. Plain as day. It is an allegory to illustrate a point, not to define theological/historical doctrine.

    When you go to the Scriptures you do yourself a huge favor when deciding meaning by making sure your interpretation of a passage is in agreement with the whole rest of the Scriptures.
     
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  11. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Are you saying two covenants are an allegory, Or the women and children are an allegory for two covenants?
     
  12. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    These kinds of statements seem to make the promises conditional on keeping the law???
    De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
     
  13. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    No I'm not saying anything except that in Galatians 4:24 clearly states it is using allegory.

    Not to sound unkind or lazy but you would be much better served doing a study on the covenants from the Bible and get a real understanding of just exactly what the covenants are. In other words don't get your theology from strangers on the internet.

    But I will give you a hint in Jer 31:31... it states that a "new covenant" will take the place of the "old covenant". The old one was given to Moses (according to Jer. 31) and the new one has it's terms and conditions spelled out there also. Take your time and really wrap your arms around this it is important.
     
  14. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Well I know that. I was attempting to know what exactly you were saying.
    I do look at the issue apart from the internet. Trying to clarify what you are saying is not getting my theology from strangers on the internet. Though I do appreciate the views of others.
     
  15. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    OK. I'm doing this against my better judgement because some will take this the wrong way and accuse me of all kinds of horrible things and perhaps no one will agree with me. This is not an insult to you or anyone else but in a way I'm on a fools mission here because I'm spending time that may not be appreciated, in my opinion.

    True statement--Jesus paid for our salvation by his blood shed on the cross. There are tons of Bible that teach this essential truth. The main purpose of the Bible is so that man can understand God and His ways. Correctly responding to His ways results in our salvation. So the Bible is the instruction manual on how to be saved.

    However God has his particular method of teaching us his ways so not every verse or precept in the Bible has 100% application or relevance to Born Again Christian believers living in the 21st century. So, it is possible I think that while the primary task Jesus performed on the cross was to pay the penalty for our sins, there might have been another related objective or two for that event. In my opinion, ratifying the "New Covenant" was just such an event.

    The Mosaic Covenant was designed to point the Israelites in the direction of dependence on Jehovah which is essential to trusting in Christ's shed blood on the cross for our salvation. However, the Israelites who benefited from that covenant were not automatically saved for heaven. Still, Jehovah made his promises to the son's of Abraham and this cannot be forgotten. Since God cannot lie or go back on His promises he must keep that promise. The Mosaic covenant and the new covenant that follows in itself doesn't save but it is related to our salvation. That relationship between the actual new covenant and the cross is very difficult to define for me. But remember, Jesus ratified the new covenant during the Passover. Look at the events of the first Passover and make the logical connection between that first and the one where the Lords Supper was instituted. Many parallels.

    There are many Christians that cannot accept that Jehovah will keep his promise of the new covenant as spelled out in detail in Jer. 31. They argue that the cross changed everything and that God hit the reset button and will only bless the new testament saints. While it is true that the cross changed things, one thing didn't change and that is the salvation of man is paid for by the shed blood of Christ regardless of when in human history an individual lived. Jesus referred to Adam's son as "righteous Able" meaning he was righteous based on the shed blood of Christ even though the cross was 1000s of years in the future. There are no two ways to salvation only one and it's paid for by the savior at the cross.

    Our (all knowing) God knew "in the beginning" that the Jews would reject Christ. That is why he set up a system in which he would send his son a second time. When Jesus returns he will be received by his covenant people but he will also add many new gentile believers to the kingdom. If one believes this, a lot of the Bible makes sense in a literal way.

    I will confess that I'm clumsy when it comes to expressing myself on such an important and complicated topic. My theology is not perfect, my understanding flawed and I am a sinner saved by God's grace. I admit all that. But I have a very difficult time seeing a literal New Testament Christian conversion experience reading the (detailed) terms and conditions set for the new covenant by the Old Testament prophets. Many highly educated and spiritual people accept that there are non-literal spiritual fulfillments of these promises but I personally cannot do that. I might be only 1 of 10 people in this camp but oh well here I stand.

    There are huge numbers of believers that are dedicated to the belief that the promises made to the Jews are transferred to the Christians and that it will be a spiritual kingdom not a real physical one. It is not an easy thing to make an argument for my way of thinking due to the sheer volume of opposing views but there it is.
     
  16. ralliann

    ralliann christian

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    Thank you for sharing this. I also struggle with certain of the same issues, although in a manner of thinking quite different from yourself (provided I am understanding you). It helps to know where a person is coming from in dialogue. I am struggling personally on a level of where to attend Church. I desire to be under that authority, as in Christ there is no private interpretation.
    Just a bit about some things you have said.
    Promises made to the son's of Abraham. God made promises to Abraham himself. I tend to think rabbinics does what you accuse the "believers" of doing. "Transferring" promises. An example is the tribe of Levi and the sons of Aaron. While Messianic Judaism does not mind the transfer of their office and inheritance to themselves, they certainly take offense of any "likeness" to it when it comes to Gentiles.
    It is Abraham who was promised to be made a father of many nations. As for God keeping his promises, it is this verse in Hebrews quoting the psalms that brought a new perspective concerning Gods promises...….
    Take note of the bolded...…..
    Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
    What????? If everything God ever said to anyone is sure to be as unconditional, then why would God ever swear an oath????? This made me realize that God can indeed repent as conditions are not met. It is a mistake to think everything God says is a promise.
    God was going to destroy the people....Of moses alone he would fulfill his promise (oath he swear) to Abraham.

    Ex 32:10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.
    How so????
    Jos 5:2 At that time the LORD said unto Joshua, Make thee sharp knives, and circumcise again the children of Israel the second time

    3 And Joshua made him sharp knives, and circumcised the children of Israel at the hill of the foreskins. {sharp … : or, knives of flints } {the hill … : or, Gibeah-haaraloth }
    4 And this is the cause why Joshua did circumcise: All the people that came out of Egypt, that were males, even all the men of war, died in the wilderness by the way, after they came out of Egypt.
    5 Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

    They had neglected the covenant which God established in Isaac, and were disinherited and died in the wilderness. The covenant of Gods OATH to the fathers. As circumcision is a command to circumcise their sons entire household.
    Joh 7:22 Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; (not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers;) and ye on the sabbath day circumcise a man.
    1Chron 16:
    15 Be ye mindful always of his covenant; the word which he commanded to a thousand generations;
    16 Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac;
    17 And hath confirmed the same to Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant
    As for Passover, what do you see? What I see is a memorial sacrifice commanded, to remember always the fulfillment of the covenant promises made 430 years earlier to their fathers. The same is true of the feast of unleavened bread, firstfruits, Pentecost. These all have to do with the promise made to Abraham. These are all feasts connected to the Abrahamic promises concerning the land. In keeping them they were obeying 1 Chronicles 16. That is why the Lords supper is connected to Passover. Because Passover is connected to the celebration of memorial to Gods faithfulness to Abraham.
     
  17. thomas15

    thomas15 Be Thou my vision Supporter

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    rallian, I will need some time to digest all of what you have said. But I will do that and comment further.

    But a few things. It is true that Jehovah instructed the Jews to circumcise. It is true that males were to be circumcised on the 8th day after birth. It is true that Jehovah desires that if the males were not circumcised then the prophets would inform the Jews that Jehovah was not pleased. It is however no where stated in the Bible that this act of being circumcised results in salvation or is proof of salvation. God really desires a circumcised heart.

    The same can be said of baptism. Many Christians are convinced that baptism, the actual baptism ritual, counts towards salvation. That we are to be baptized is Biblical, that the actual ritual of baptism itself has anything to do with obtaining a heart for God is not in the Bible.

    I placed my faith and trust in the Lord Jesus when I was in my first year of college. Not that my personal experience in this matter is the center of all things but I asked a member of the campus ministry about being baptized. He was doing temp. pulpit supply for a local church so he was able to baptize me there. This pastor studied at a well known reformed seminary (Gordon Conwell) and was eventually ordained in one of the more conservative Presbyterian organizations but the church he was going to baptize me in was Lutheran.

    He gave me a book to study which talked about every possible aspect of baptism. When I was finished with the book he asked me if I thought that I should be sprinkled, poured or fully dunked. I said fully dunked but he said "I sprinkle". I think the Bible and the book he gave me made the best argument for being fully dunked. This was my first indication that my personal inclination is to take the words of the Bible in a literal sense but not all see it that way. I'm still good friends with this pastor although we live 1000 miles apart and he baptized me in the year 1077. Just kidding it was 1977.
     
  18. reformed05

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  19. reformed05

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    It is my understanding of covenant theology that it is NOT a doctrine but a framework through which to interpret the Bible, as dispensation is a lens through which to interpret. Which lens through which you interpret makes a drastic difference in the result. In covenant theology the Biblical premise is that God relates to humans through covenants.
    in the OT there are many covenants and different types of covenants. There is the bilateral which is a promise of God contingent upon the other parties keeping His stipulations. ThI
    s we have the blessings and cursings. The covenant with Israel was primarily a land covenant. They could keep the land, He would bless them and protect them IF.
    the covenant with Abraham was unilateral. Only God was involved. A covenant of faith that reached its fulfilment in Christ. The New Covenant is unilateral. No conditions attached because Jesus fulfilled all the requirements of th law for us. Yes we must have faith, and Ephesians tells us that too is a gift.
    There are other covenants in the OT of both types but that is a basic outline.
     
  20. Daniel Marsh

    Daniel Marsh Well-Known Member

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    Christian
    Married
    US-Republican
    scrolled tohere
     
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