Is this a mark of Apostacy?

[rmwilliamsll]

First let me say that you all have been so very gracious to me here and I don't intend to open a can of worms nor do I want to debate as I am not Prebyterian. Having said that, I must wonder what you consider unrepentant? The Scriptures say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Would you allow a smoker to become a member? What about one who occasionly drinks alcohol? Which sins would keep a person from membership? I am not talking about those things that are obviously serious such as a continued aldultrous affair or something of that nature but just wonder where you draw the line.

you draw the line as close as you can to where Scriptures draw the lines.

only a very few reformed or Presbyterian denominations are tee-totalers-Bible P. is the only one i can think of off hand, because that issue and Christian Liberty is what divided Machen from McIntire.

I've never heard of smoking being brought up, however i have never seen a member of the church smoke either.

i'm obese. i've struggled with it for my entire life. my friends at church know i realize it is a continuing sin, that i am repentent and every Sunday aware of it and endeavor to continue to fight the battle. But i have never seen it a church membership issue, however i have seen the issue brought up in Presbytery ordination exams (it was a transfer i think).

no repentent sins would keep a prospective member from joining the church, although i'd love to hear from our elders that are on the board. it is unrepentent sins that are the problem. for all of us.

 

[mlqurgw]

If the Bible clearly says that something is sin we must act. Is smoking sin? Perhaps, but it is not clearly stated. Drunkedness is a sin, the occasional drink is not. If this were not so then our Lord would be a sinner!

There are things that are clearly defined. On these clearly defined sins we must act firmly.

We must tread very carefully in the grey areas, allowing the principles of Grace rule over legalism in these cases.

I am not disagreeing with you but have seen the use of dicipline taken to the extreme. It is a very sticky subject. On the one hand we are never told to keep the church pure. We simply can't tell the wheat from the tares. On the other we are to lovingly seek to encourage those who are seemingly unrepentant to turn from thier ways. The question is how do we do this without causing more harm than good? I always seek to deal with these kind of things without it becoming a public spectacle. If I err I hope it is on the side of love.

 

[Foundthelight]

I am not disagreeing with you but have seen the use of dicipline taken to the extreme. It is a very sticky subject. On the one hand we are never told to keep the church pure. We simply can't tell the wheat from the tares. On the other we are to lovingly seek to encourage those who are seemingly unrepentant to turn from thier ways. The question is how do we do this without causing more harm than good? I always seek to deal with these kind of things without it becoming a public spectacle. If I err I hope it is on the side of love.

We must always be very careful and allow love and grace to guide us. That being said, let us refer to Paul's clear words;

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1Co 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
1Co 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

 

[mlqurgw]

We must always be very careful and allow love and grace to guide us. That being said, let us refer to Paul's clear words;

1Co 5:11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
1Co 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
1Co 5:13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."

I didn't really want to debate this. I must view this passage in light of the Gospel. Forgiveness is what is in view here. All we need do is to look at how Paul adresses it in 2Cor. 2. The idea is not to exclude but to win them. We can deal with certain situations from the pulpit without pointing fingers or making a public spectacle of someone. Those who are involved will know that it is them who are being dealt with. We are then to go to them in private and seek to win them. Even then we are not to make them a spectacle. If they continue in obstinate rebellion we are to simply leave them alone in fellowship. I do not think Paul is saying we ought to ostracize them in a public way but to simply treat them as we would unbelievers. We do not greet them as belivers nor do we extend the right hand of fellowship to them nor do we socialize as familiar friends with them. We do love them and seek to win them. We are told in the Scriptures to examine ourselves but never are we told to examine others. It isn't our right nor do we even have the ability. Man looks on the outward appearence but God looks on the heart. Yes we are told to judge but never to condemn.

 

[mlqurgw]

I wanted to add that that passage is dealing with someone who has made a profession of faith and is considered a member of the Church. I find nowhere we are told to withold membership from those who profess faith in Christ. Some are not yet mature enough to grasp all involved in faith. I believe Rom. 14 would apply.

 

[Foundthelight]

I didn't really want to debate this. I must view this passage in light of the Gospel. Forgiveness is what is in view here. All we need do is to look at how Paul adresses it in 2Cor. 2. The idea is not to exclude but to win them. We can deal with certain situations from the pulpit without pointing fingers or making a public spectacle of someone. Those who are involved will know that it is them who are being dealt with. We are then to go to them in private and seek to win them. Even then we are not to make them a spectacle. If they continue in obstinate rebellion we are to simply leave them alone in fellowship. I do not think Paul is saying we ought to ostracize them in a public way but to simply treat them as we would unbelievers. We do not greet them as belivers nor do we extend the right hand of fellowship to them nor do we socialize as familiar friends with them. We do love them and seek to win them. We are told in the Scriptures to examine ourselves but never are we told to examine others. It isn't our right nor do we even have the ability. Man looks on the outward appearence but God looks on the heart. Yes we are told to judge but never to condemn.

I am sorry but I must disagree. We are commanded to kick out the obstinate from our ranks. This was the norm untill the early to mid 1900's. We have been in decline ever since.

Remember that the message of love is only half the Gospel. Jesus' Parables all had a judgement in the end for those who did not heed the message. If we counsel and counsel and counsel and the person at fault does not change we are to kick them out. I know that this sounds harsh, but it is just. If we leave the open sinner in our ranks that persons faults will lead others to stumble. It is our responsibility to prevent the sins of the one from causing another to fail. We cannot condone open sin with silence.

 

[mlqurgw]

I am sorry but I must disagree. We are commanded to kick out the obstinate from our ranks. This was the norm untill the early to mid 1900's. We have been in decline ever since.

Remember that the message of love is only half the Gospel. Jesus' Parables all had a judgement in the end for those who did not heed the message. If we counsel and counsel and counsel and the person at fault does not change we are to kick them out. I know that this sounds harsh, but it is just. If we leave the open sinner in our ranks that persons faults will lead others to stumble. It is our responsibility to prevent the sins of the one from causing another to fail. We cannot condone open sin with silence.

By no means should you be sorry. We must each live according to the light given us. I only ask where in Scripture we are told such a thing. You must and should do as you believe the Scriptures teach as must I.

 

[Bob Moore]

The PCUSA did indeed start out honoring Christ through Worship. In its effort to be more "relevant" it has moved from a strict reading of Scripture to a liberal interpretation/false teaching.

Yes it has, which goes a long way toward explaining why so many PCUSA churches have fragmented.

But this is not true of all in the church. There are many who are fighting this
evil.

No doubt about that. But I wonder at what point one quits flailing a dead horse? Good intentions are one thing, but if 4 out of 5 ministers are telling you that things that you know are contrary to Scripture are to be ignored in favor of their own private gospel then I submit that there is a problem. Please don't think for a minute that I'm telling you what to do here. You know the exact situation in that church better than anyone here. All I'm saying is that the time can come, as the Scripture says, to shake off the dust.

Unfortunately, some congregations have split and moved to the PCA,

Help me out here. Why is it "unfortunate" that some have rejected the gospel of men in favor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?

some have left to become independent in the congregational model. When this happens we lose much needed voices of dissent.

Voices of dissent are certainly good. As I recall Paul "withstood Peter to his face". The difference is that Peter's ears were open.

The individual who gave me the most grief was a minister, not a lay preacher. In fact there were three ministers telling me I was wrong along with one lay preacher. There was only one minister agreeing with me.

A miserable situation. However, the majority report in American Cristendom (at least) seems to be Arminian. That doesn't bind anyone to sign on to it. I see it like this: You tell them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Then, if they reject it, you are not obligated to persist. Recall that Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away after He told him the truth. I think Jesus is a pretty good example to follow.

So long as I can be a voice in support of the historical reformed faith I will remain.

But you are a voice, and apparently no one (with a few exceptions) is willing to listen.

Brother, I hate the situation you are in. I understand loyalty and devotion to duty as well as anyone, but Biblically there comes a time..........why else the Reformation?

 

[Bob Moore]

First let me say that you all have been so very gracious to me here and I don't intend to open a can of worms nor do I want to debate as I am not Prebyterian.

Awww. We'll have to work on that.

Having said that, I must wonder what you consider unrepentant? The Scriptures say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Would you allow a smoker to become a member?

Certainly. Smoking is dumb, but it is only sin if the smoker considers it to be sin and persists anyway. Remember that God Gave us every seed bearing plant for our use, and the Scripture does not restrict that use to food and fiber.

What about one who occasionly drinks alcohol?

No problem there either. If taking a social drink is sin than Jesus is a sinner and we have no Savior.

Which sins would keep a person from membership? I am not talking about those things that are obviously serious such as a continued aldultrous affair or something of that nature but just wonder where you draw the line.

We, speaking for my congregation where I serve as an officer of the Church, consider a persistant, wilfull, disobedient lifestyle contrary to the Scripture to be strong evidence of unrepentance. Therefore any such person will be denied membership, or will be given over to the world until such time as repentance is present. Please follow me carefully on this point. Jesus' Church is a hospital for sinners, but it is not a haven for them. This side of eternity we are all, without exception, sinners, and the degree doesn't matter since any sin at all is abomination before God. What matters is how the individual reacts to that knowledge. Do we see ourselves for what we really are and repent in dust and ashes? Or do we excuse ourselves in one fashion or another? David said this: "The sacrifices of God are a broken and a contrite heart. A broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not dispise". The plain implication of that is that a heart that is not broken and contrite is not acceptable to God. So we do the best we can to discern who is broken and who isn't. Naturally enough that isn't always easy to see.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i googled:
Church is a hospital for sinners, but it is not a haven for them

found:
Is the church a sanctuary for saints, or a hospital for sinners?!

"the Church is not a haven for the perfect, but a hospital for sinners."

“A church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints.” Abigail VanBuren

nor is it a haven for sinners, for in the Church we encounter both God and how He is working in our friends.
we engage with our own sinfulness and sincerely repent for what and who we are. endeavoring at least weekly (weakly?) after a new obedience.
the point is that in the church we can not be made comfort in our sins, but have God in the other people in the church point out and help us overcome our sins. mutual accountability.


thanks.

 

[Foundthelight]

Yes it has, which goes a long way toward explaining why so many PCUSA churches have fragmented.



No doubt about that. But I wonder at what point one quits flailing a dead horse? Good intentions are one thing, but if 4 out of 5 ministers are telling you that things that you know are contrary to Scripture are to be ignored in favor of their own private gospel then I submit that there is a problem. Please don't think for a minute that I'm telling you what to do here. You know the exact situation in that church better than anyone here. All I'm saying is that the time can come, as the Scripture says, to shake off the dust.



Help me out here. Why is it "unfortunate" that some have rejected the gospel of men in favor of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?



Voices of dissent are certainly good. As I recall Paul "withstood Peter to his face". The difference is that Peter's ears were open.



A miserable situation. However, the majority report in American Cristendom (at least) seems to be Arminian. That doesn't bind anyone to sign on to it. I see it like this: You tell them the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Then, if they reject it, you are not obligated to persist. Recall that Jesus let the rich young ruler walk away after He told him the truth. I think Jesus is a pretty good example to follow.



But you are a voice, and apparently no one (with a few exceptions) is willing to listen.

Brother, I hate the situation you are in. I understand loyalty and devotion to duty as well as anyone, but Biblically there comes a time..........why else the Reformation?

Thank you for your kind comments.

There are no other churches in the area that are even remotely reformed. I had contacted PCA about the possibility of a church plant and got nowhere.

There are many believers in our particular church that feel the same as I do. We are not prepared to split from PCUSA at this time. If things get worse we will. If the presbytery tolerates me we will be ok. If they try to quash me things may get interesting.

 

[mlqurgw]

I hope you understand that I take a different view of dicipline in the church for the reasons that I have already stated. That does in no way mean that I am liberal in my views, I simply understand the Scriptural priciples differently. I have seen great harm done by a strict dicipline exercised in the church. While it may not be full blown legalism it certainly tends to it. It has been my experience that those who remain unrepentant most often are very uncomfortable being among believers and usually leave of their own accord.

Now I did want to make a comment on the Church being a hospital. I believe it is a place to be put to death instead of a place to be cured of your sickness. The flesh isn't sent to the cross to be cured but sent there to be crucified. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead with Christ but alive unto God by Him.

 

[Foundthelight]

I hope you understand that I take a different view of dicipline in the church for the reasons that I have already stated. That does in no way mean that I am liberal in my views, I simply understand the Scriptural priciples differently. I have seen great harm done by a strict dicipline exercised in the church. While it may not be full blown legalism it certainly tends to it. It has been my experience that those who remain unrepentant most often are very uncomfortable being among believers and usually leave of their own accord.

Now I did want to make a comment on the Church being a hospital. I believe it is a place to be put to death instead of a place to be cured of your sickness. The flesh isn't sent to the cross to be cured but sent there to be crucified. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead with Christ but alive unto God by Him.

I have never attended or been a member of a church that practiced any sort of discipline towards its members. All have been free to follow their own paths in the church, whether that be mysticism, denial of certain parts of scripture, or Agnosticism. I would say that this approach has not been for the greater good of the faith.

Just as Jesus warned us of the leaven of the Pharisees we must be careful of the leaven of those whose walk is not on the straight and narrow path. If we discipline where scripture is clear and do not tread where scripture is silent always acting out of Agape love we will be safe. The problem comes in when we become rigid and legalistic where scripture is not clear.

We are weak and sinful in our nature. It is easy for us to abuse our power in discipline. But we are obligated to discipline by clear scripture. Are we truly acting in a spirit of Christian love when we do not correct our brothers and sisters? In those cases where scripture is not clear the answer is yes. In those cases where scripture is clear to the most casual observer the answer is no.

We have many elders sitting on session so that their mutual wisdom can guide us. A loose cannon such as myself can do irreperable harm.