Is this a mark of Apostacy?

[Foundthelight]

I am an Elder in the PCUSA. The Presbytery is holding session training classes to help us better serve our individual churches.

One of the discussions we had concerned whether unrepentent sinners could join our individual churches.

I said no, that they would have to repent of their sin and agree to give up that sin.

Three ministers of the word and sacraments and one commissioned lay preacher accused me of being a legalist, pointed out that the book of Order only required a profession of faith, that sins are between individuals and God only, that we in the church have no right to judge those that are openly sinning.

I pointed out that their statements directly fly in the face of the primacy of scripture as stated in the Bible and our Confessions. I pointed to Paul's discussions of church discipline, that it was one of our requirements as leaders. I even mentioned Sola Scriptura!

They basically said that I had to adhere to their teachings, not to the Bible's teachings.

And they wonder why the PCUSA is in decline. How can God bless any church that teaches this?

 

[Cajun Huguenot]

That is terrible situation. I know there are still good Christian people in the PCUSA, but the denomination as a whole has long since left not only the Reformed faith, but historic Christian orthodoxy.

I feel for the godly brethren who are still there working and praying for a return to the Gosple faith that they denomination once held to. You too are in my prayers. I pray the Lord give you wisdom in what you should say and do.

In Christ,
Kenith

 

[Foundthelight]

That is terrible situation. I know there are still good Christian people in the PCUSA, but the denomination as a whole has long since left not only the Reformed faith, but historic Christian orthodoxy.

I feel for the godly brethren who are still there working and praying for a return to the Gosple faith that they denomination once held to. You too are in my prayers. I pray the Lord give you wisdom in what you should say and do.

In Christ,
Kenith

Thank you, Kenith. I will continue to point out where these people are in error and pray that God will soften their hearts. There was at least one minister present who fully supported my position. All hope is not lost.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

i don't understand how any one can get out of bed in the morning or get into it at night, unrepentent.

simply to face the day, unforgiven, unsaddened by the pervasiveness of sin remaining.

or to end that day, obstinant and unforgiven, not casting all on God for safety, rescue and love, before trusting Him for a good night's rest.

 

[Foundthelight]

i don't understand how any one can get out of bed in the morning or get into it at night, unrepentent.

simply to face the day, unforgiven, unsaddened by the pervasiveness of sin remaining.

or to end that day, obstinant and unforgiven, not casting all on God for safety, rescue and love, before trusting Him for a good night's rest.

Those who are not of the elect, who haven't been drawn by God to faith in Christ, wallow in their sin. "No one is righteous. No, not one." They are told of their need for a redeemer but don't recognize their need.

While we don't understand how anyone can live without Christ (even though in our past we were like them, uncaring), they are quite happy.

We have been blessed by God. Let us praise him!

 

[Elderone]

My father was a ruling Elder in the PC (USA) for many years. On one of our trips home between overseas assignments I found out my parents had stopped attending their church. My mother finally told me that my father had become fed up with the politics and liberalism in the denomination, that was in the late 70's.

I absolutely support your stand Foundthelight.

 

[DawnAngelOfMercy]

I always thought the Bible says we are to rebuke our brothers and sisters who are sinning? We are supposed to offer them guidance and help, that's not judging.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

My father was a ruling Elder in the PC (USA) for many years. On one of our trips home between overseas assignments I found out my parents had stopped attending their church. My mother finally told me that my father had become fed up with the politics and liberalism in the denomination, that was in the mid 70's.

I absolutely support your stand Foundthelight.

if you want to share. how did your folks work out those issues? did they end up attending a church somewhere?
i ask, because i didn't attend/get involved/join a church for close to 20 years and had a lot of difficulty working through all the issues.

 

[Elderone]

if you want to share. how did your folks work out those issues? did they end up attending a church somewhere?
i ask, because i didn't attend/get involved/join a church for close to 20 years and had a lot of difficulty working through all the issues.

My parents never again attended any church. My father never talked about it and my mother very little. My family and I went back overseas shortly after they made the break so it wasn't pursued. I wasn't redeemed until after my father died so even though we were back in the U.S. for a number of years before his death I didn't have the background to ask the right questions or try to get them to a Bible believing church.

Looking back upon my church attendance with my parents, in the United Presbyterian Church from 1938 until 1957, very few if any of the important things I learned at our church in Virginia were taught, e.g., The Bible is the word of God, read the Bible everyday, and many others. Possibly I was too young at first or uninterested in my teen years to have noticed, but it is doubtful, something should have stuck. On numerous occasions I have even tried to remember if there were Bibles in the pews and have been unable to do so.

In the 80's we attended a PC(USA) - old habit - with the service being continually so uninspiring that I would wonder why we had wasted the time, but on the Sundays we stayed home I knew that wasn't right either, and I was only in the stage of being drawn to God and not yet even a baby Christian.

Although my father never spoke of the reasons for their break they may have been the same things you had to work through. I'm very confident my father and I will have the opportunity to talk about this.

Hopefully this is of some help.

 

[McWilliams]

Somehow reminds me of what J. Gresham Machen went through trying to maintain his strong doctrinal beliefs in a vast sea of increasing liberalism! How painful that must be and how very sad for your folks!

 

[Foundthelight]

I spent four years travelling back and forth to Harrisonburg VA for a series of plant expansions I was overseeing for the company I worked for. When I was in town on a Sunday I would attend the First Presbyterian Church downtown on court Square. This was a PCUSA with a conservative bible-believing pastor. It was a wonderful experience attending this church of over 1000 members.

There are still believers in the PCUSA, it is not totally dead. But it is on life support. Many churches around the country have left to join the PCA.

I feel called to stay with the PCUSA. So long as they don't kick me out, I will continue to be a voice of dissent and strive to bring the Bible back into the church.

 

[Bob Moore]

I am an Elder in the PCUSA. The Presbytery is holding session training classes to help us better serve our individual churches.

One of the discussions we had concerned whether unrepentent sinners could join our individual churches.

I said no, that they would have to repent of their sin and agree to give up that sin.

Three ministers of the word and sacraments and one commissioned lay preacher accused me of being a legalist, pointed out that the book of Order only required a profession of faith, that sins are between individuals and God only, that we in the church have no right to judge those that are openly sinning.

I pointed out that their statements directly fly in the face of the primacy of scripture as stated in the Bible and our Confessions. I pointed to Paul's discussions of church discipline, that it was one of our requirements as leaders. I even mentioned Sola Scriptura!

And they wonder why the PCUSA is in decline. How can God bless any church that teaches this?

That is very sad. But here is something to keep in mind: There are two kinds of churches. One belongs to Jesus, and the other belongs to men. I wonder which category this church falls into?

As an aside I will mention that your lay preacher doesn't know what legalism is since he applies the term not to additions to the Scripture but to the book of order (which seems not to be too orderly) which evidently holds a higher place for him than the Scriptures themselves.

They basically said that I had to adhere to their teachings, not to the Bible's teachings.

Then don't let the door knob hit you on the way out. That sounds more like a cult than a church.

 

[Foundthelight]

That is very sad. But here is something to keep in mind: There are two kinds of churches. One belongs to Jesus, and the other belongs to men. I wonder which category this church falls into?

As an aside I will mention that your lay preacher doesn't know what legalism is since he applies the term not to additions to the Scripture but to the book of order (which seems not to be too orderly) which evidently holds a higher place for him than the Scriptures themselves.



Then don't let the door knob hit you on the way out. That sounds more like a cult than a church.

The PCUSA did indeed start out honoring Christ through Worship. In its effort to be more "relevant" it has moved from a strict reading of Scripture to a liberal interpretation/false teaching.

But this is not true of all in the church. There are many who are fighting this evil.

Unfortunately, some congregations have split and moved to the PCA, some have left to become independent in the congregational model. When this happens we lose much needed voices of dissent.

The individual who gave me the most grief was a minister, not a lay preacher. In fact there were three ministers telling me I was wrong along with one lay preacher. There was only one minister agreeing with me.

So long as I can be a voice in support of the historical reformed faith I will remain.

 

[Foundthelight]

A funny thing.

When I say that I feel called by Christ to act as I do in support of the primacy of scripture that is called arrogance.

Yet when these false teachers say that they were called by Christ to ministry that is obedience.

The bible plainly says that false teachers are teaching not with the guidance of the Holy Spirit but , rather, in some other spirit.

I will gladly stand before my Judge in my arrogance. How are they going to fare in their obedience?

 

[gitamerah]

One of the discussions we had concerned whether unrepentent sinners could join our individual churches.

I said no, that they would have to repent of their sin and agree to give up that sin.

Maybe I misunderstood. If I did, then forgive me. Are you talking about preventing someone from attending church because they are sinners?

Remember that Jesus ate with sinners. He came to seek the sinners, not to keep them out. If He had gone only with the righteous, none of us would have been saved today.

As His witnesses, we, the church, ought to welcome sinners. How else are they going to repent if you do not give them a chance by allowing them to hear God's word in church?

 

[Foundthelight]

Maybe I misunderstood. If I did, then forgive me. Are you talking about preventing someone from attending church because they are sinners?

Remember that Jesus ate with sinners. He came to seek the sinners, not to keep them out. If He had gone only with the righteous, none of us would have been saved today.

As His witnesses, we, the church, ought to welcome sinners. How else are they going to repent if you do not give them a chance by allowing them to hear God's word in church?

All are welcome in the church. All have a need to hear the Gospel in order to understand their need for a Savior.

That being said, not all should be allowed to join the individual congregation. For in doing so they are saying that they have faith in Christ and the Elders have examined them and found them in a state of repentence and faith that is in accord with Scripture.

If we as Elders examine them and find that they are not in a state of repentence for their sin, but rather deny that their actions are sinful, we are obligated by clear Scripture to reject them for membership. For by allowing them to be members we are then saying that we condone their sin.

 

[mlqurgw]

First let me say that you all have been so very gracious to me here and I don't intend to open a can of worms nor do I want to debate as I am not Prebyterian. Having said that, I must wonder what you consider unrepentant? The Scriptures say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Would you allow a smoker to become a member? What about one who occasionly drinks alcohol? Which sins would keep a person from membership? I am not talking about those things that are obviously serious such as a continued aldultrous affair or something of that nature but just wonder where you draw the line.

 

[McWilliams]

We all sin at times but christians choose to please God with their life and to honor Him and not their self! Even if a believer commits sin and then continues on in known sin as a lifestyle the church must address this in a biblical manner.
If a non christian, non church member asks to become a church member and yet has no intention of giving up their sinful lifestyle they are definitely not member material!

 

[Foundthelight]

First let me say that you all have been so very gracious to me here and I don't intend to open a can of worms nor do I want to debate as I am not Prebyterian. Having said that, I must wonder what you consider unrepentant? The Scriptures say that whatever is not of faith is sin. Would you allow a smoker to become a member? What about one who occasionly drinks alcohol? Which sins would keep a person from membership? I am not talking about those things that are obviously serious such as a continued aldultrous affair or something of that nature but just wonder where you draw the line.

If the Bible clearly says that something is sin we must act. Is smoking sin? Perhaps, but it is not clearly stated. Drunkedness is a sin, the occasional drink is not. If this were not so then our Lord would be a sinner!

There are things that are clearly defined. On these clearly defined sins we must act firmly.

We must tread very carefully in the grey areas, allowing the principles of Grace rule over legalism in these cases.

 

[Foundthelight]

I feel so strongly on this subject that I have started my first ever blog.

http://issues-in-the-pcusa.blogspot.com/

Feel free to tell me where I am all wet and where I could say things more appropriately.

Yours in Christ

Willis