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Is there such a thing as a Christian homosexual?

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razzelflabben

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Christi said:
I love this post, though I kind of just stumbled in here.....it really spoke to me, because I am so weary of spending more time on my knees begging forgiveness for the same sins, than doing anything else. It's quite embarrassing to approach the throne of grace over ANY sin, several times a day. But for some of us, we hate it nearly as much as God does. There's no cavelier attitude of "ha ha ha, look what I'm getting away with!" There really can be godly sorrow over a sin, without having achieved victory over it. Thank you for recognizing that, because I needed it today.:cry:

edited to add: I just realized I am in a homosexual thread and am probably way off topic. Sorry everyone! :sorry:
May God's power be abundant in your life today and aways.
 
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fejao

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PastorFreud said:
I don't know what studies you have been reading regarding homosexuality and its causes. It is true that we don't have a clear cut causal relationship, but the correlation of homosexuality is high among identical twins who share the same genetic make up, lower but still high for fraternal twins who share the same prenatal environment, drops drastically for two children in the same the family born at separate times, and drops again for two randomly chosen people from different families. This suggests a biological influence that is strong.

Regarding environment, poor studies were done in the 60s that seemed to show a correlation between homosexuality and absent fathers, etc. The problem was that the population used for these studies were people in therapy. When the studies were done on the general population, the correlations disappeared.

By manipulating the prenatal environment, we can make gay fruit flies and bisexual mice. That doesn't prove much, I will grant that. But then we can't exactly do an ethical experiment using humans for this.

Regarding scripture, what do you do with clear cut passages condemning pork and wearing polyester? What do you do with passages supporting slavery? What about women being silent in church? Practically every Christian I know uses a method of interpreting these texts that takes into account the language of the oldest copies, the culture of the audience and authors as known from the text and outside sources, awareness of historical and social events from the time, and an understanding the type of literature represented by the text as compared to other religious and secular texts of the time period, and comparing the text to other texts in the canon of Scripture. No one calls this picking and choosing what you will believe. No one calls this twisting scripture to mean what you want it to mean. But when this approach is applied to the small number of verses relating to homosexuality, hermeneutics gets a bad rap. It's considered "justifying" what you want to believe, blah, blah, blah.

I think it is clear from the text that women are property, slavery is a birthright for Hebrews, marriage has more to do with power and politics than love, women are to be subordinate to men, children are the property of the man of the house to do with as he will, etc. etc. We don't move these passages into modern times and apply them at face value. Why shouldn't we understand sexuality in context as well?[/QUOTE]

Really good observation and explanation of picking and choosing scripture imo.

Fejao x x
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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Shane Roach said:
I am still not following you. In Acts 15:19-20 we are talking about a group of people who know absolutely nothing about the law, the Gentiles, being told not to worry with it except to abstain from 4 specific things, fornications again being one of those four. It is a total exclusion of the entire OT Law for Gentiles, with 4 exceptions. That includes everything, even cooking practices. Three other things being excluded later as unecessary burdens on the Gentiles only means that cooking practices are still in the large set of things not to worry with. Furthermore, the Jews were encouraged finally to go ahead and keep their practices, which would include the cooking practice, without describing a set to keep and a set to lose based on any new revelations about what is ok and what is not, so the cooking practice would, for them, still be a prohibition, though not associated with salvation. There are, as you may know, still a set of promises to the Jews in particular that keeping their special coventant with God relates to.

At this point my knowledge more or less is cut off. I don't know much about the history of Messianic Judaism in ancient times, and it may well be that the line between Jew and Gentile Christians dissapeared over the centuries until it was revived by Zionism coupled with the strong influence of a now powerfull Christian church, and certain Jews who were unwilling to let go of their culture nevertheless embracing Christ.

There is a huge section of Romans, really the whole book just about, that goes into deep detail about liberty, sin, responsability towards the weaker believer, responsability of the weaker believer not to be so demanding that they cause strife. A lot of things. But at no point is it even hinted at that sexual sins fit into that discussion. Indeed, one of your least favorite verses is in precisely the book that seems to go into the most detail about the very subject you seem to be trying to explore.

Please understand, I alreay know that from your perspective the homosexual love affair is not a sin, not a "fornication" as it were. But that's the subject I'm trying to clear up in my understanding, how you come to that conclusion. That subject would need to be cleared up by talking about something besides a rule like the ideas behind the cooking prohibition you bring up, though. There just isn't any parallel. I'm really not aware of any parallel at all, which is just one more reason why I find your thoughts on the subject so inxplicable and dangerous.

To understand my position, you will probably need to first understand how I determine whether something is sinful. Jesus summarized the entire Law and Prophets with the commandments to love God and love one's neighbor (which included one's enemies) (Matthew 22:37-40). Therefore, if something cannot be shown to conflict either of these commandments, its sinfulness is highly suspect. 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23 tells us that all things are lawful but not necessarily profitable. We are not to be mastered by something. This sets the burden of proof on the side of showing that it is sinful or not profitable. Finally, we are to evaluate teachings based on the fruits they bear (Matthew 7).

Of course, even after doing this, it is profitable to look at any passages that appear to contradict our conclusion and try to resolve this apparent contradiction. If we cannot, it would be prudent to be cautious about the issue because our understanding is clearly incomplete.

Therefore, I look at a covenanted (permanent, spiritual, and monogamous) homosexual relationship that mirrors heterosexual marriage and do not see any offenses against the two great commandments. I then look at whether it could be a hinderance or could master someone in such a relationship. There are some situations were this could be the case, but this are the same situations that would hinder or master a person in a heterosexual marriage. The experiences of many homosexuals couples who have been together for decades reveal that the relationships can be profitable. Finally, while I do see some bad fruits of some of the arguments used to condone homosexuality, I do not see bad fruits resulting from a homosexual couple approaching their relationship from the perspective of Christian marriage.

I'll address the apparent contradictions to passages in the Bible in my next post. I already had my browser crash once and don't want to have to rewrite this again.
 
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chalice_thunder

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fragmentsofdreams said:
To understand my position, you will probably need to first understand how I determine whether something is sinful. Jesus summarized the entire Law and Prophets with the commandments to love God and love one's neighbor (which included one's enemies) (Matthew 22:37-40). Therefore, if something cannot be shown to conflict either of these commandments, its sinfulness is highly suspect. 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23 tells us that all things are lawful but not necessarily profitable. We are not to be mastered by something. This sets the burden of proof on the side of showing that it is sinful or not profitable. Finally, we are to evaluate teachings based on the fruits they bear (Matthew 7).

Of course, even after doing this, it is profitable to look at any passages that appear to contradict our conclusion and try to resolve this apparent contradiction. If we cannot, it would be prudent to be cautious about the issue because our understanding is clearly incomplete.

Therefore, I look at a covenanted (permanent, spiritual, and monogamous) homosexual relationship that mirrors heterosexual marriage and do not see any offenses against the two great commandments. I then look at whether it could be a hinderance or could master someone in such a relationship. There are some situations were this could be the case, but this are the same situations that would hinder or master a person in a heterosexual marriage. The experiences of many homosexuals couples who have been together for decades reveal that the relationships can be profitable. Finally, while I do see some bad fruits of some of the arguments used to condone homosexuality, I do not see bad fruits resulting from a homosexual couple approaching their relationship from the perspective of Christian marriage.

I'll address the apparent contradictions to passages in the Bible in my next post. I already had my browser crash once and don't want to have to rewrite this again.

Superb answer - thanks for taking the time to write it. :clap:

I especially think the SUmmary of the Law is applicable in looking through the lens of what is/is not sin. And we should remember that it is our own sin that we should be examining, and NOT the imagined sins of others.
 
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Shane Roach

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razzelflabben said:
I must be really dumb, I don't see any scriptural reference indicating that homosexuality is a worse sin. If one would like to classify it is a detestable sin, such as fornication, then we would have to add to the homosexual sin, lust, adultery, and other sexual immorality. Then we come back to square one, who will be left in our churches and how will we know whom is and is not repentant of their sin.

So let's get painfully honest here, I have said before on this thread that my husband has dealt with porn for many years, it was a well hidden sin. Because it was well hidden, did it make it less of a sin? NO Because it was fornication (as traditionally defined) should he have been removed from the church? How would man know to remove him from fellowship? (on any level) How would this help him to overcome his sin of lust? From my experience with helping him to be a Godly man, sound biblical teaching and constant accountability has allowed the spirit to begin a transformation in his life that I am guessing will not be finished until the resurrection. (that is for God to know, not me) It required some hard looks into scripture as well as our own personal lives. It was hard, and sometimes angering, painful, and at times we both wanted to justify what the word of God says on the subject. The bottom line though is that his conviction required two things, one the power of the HS and two, fellowship with believers who spoke the truth in love, stayed right by his side, and supported him while the HS was a work. Oh, let us not forget the length of time involved to get him to the point of relenquishing control over to God completely.
If I have even once said that anyone who sins at all is to be put out of the church, please point it out to me. You keep talking as if I had.

Your husband struggled privately with a sin, hiding it. Is that somehow unrepentant? He's not pretending it's not a sin. He wasn't doing it correctly in trying to get his life right, but there was no public knowledge of his sin, and he did not go around preaching that it was not sin.

The purpose of church discipline as I said before appears to be to keep peace and stability within the church. A person either preaching a sinful doctrine, or living one in such a way that it is obvious that while they claim to be Christian they do not even so much as believe the teachings of the apostles, is a stumbling block for other believers, who may be tempted to sin by that example being accepted by the church as a whole.

I have never, ever, ever, never, EVER said that someone who is struggling with sin should be put out of the church. You repeatedly give me examples of people struggling with sin as if they applied to what I have been talking about. They do not. Please, let us put this argument to rest. I agree with you here. If you have something that addresses the verses I have shown, stating unequivicolly that there is a type of behavior and teaching that is to be put out, carefully yes, but put out only until there is some sign of repentence and willingness to acknowledge sin and fight it, then please show that to me.

I have nothing to argue against in your post. I agree with all of it, except the part that goes, "therefore no on should ever be put out of the church." Obviously, the church has to be carefull about that, and I have said as mich, but nevertheless it is the duty of the church.
 
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Shane Roach

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pastorfreud said:
Regarding scripture, what do you do with clear cut passages condemning pork and wearing polyester? What do you do with passages supporting slavery? What about women being silent in church? Practically every Christian I know uses a method of interpreting these texts that takes into account the language of the oldest copies, the culture of the audience and authors as known from the text and outside sources, awareness of historical and social events from the time, and an understanding the type of literature represented by the text as compared to other religious and secular texts of the time period, and comparing the text to other texts in the canon of Scripture. No one calls this picking and choosing what you will believe. No one calls this twisting scripture to mean what you want it to mean. But when this approach is applied to the small number of verses relating to homosexuality, hermeneutics gets a bad rap. It's considered "justifying" what you want to believe, blah, blah, blah.

I think it is clear from the text that women are property, slavery is a birthright for Hebrews, marriage has more to do with power and politics than love, women are to be subordinate to men, children are the property of the man of the house to do with as he will, etc. etc. We don't move these passages into modern times and apply them at face value. Why shouldn't we understand sexuality in context as well?[/QUOTE]

The problem isn't the use of hermeneutics, the problem is that your arguments don't hold any water compared to the examples you've given. So far I haven't seen your argument, just several promises to get around to it eventually. I ask once again, demonstrate your argument. Why try to drag a half dozen other subjects into the mix?
 
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fragmentsofdreams

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I believe that many of the laws of the Old Testament were intended to promote the survival of the Chosen People. For exmaple, many of the Kosher laws protect people from disease. Part of the survival of the Hebrews depended on producing plenty of progeny to help them survive against the many powerful enemies that surrounded them. The context of the levitical prohibitions against homosexuality appears to be directed at directing all sexuality to the creation of legitimate children. Christianity does not have this concern, as evidenced by the way it views celibacy as honorable rather than shameful.

Onto Romans, which I like despite what you may think. What I don't like is when people pull one verse out of an arguement without looking at the whole of the arguement. First, it should be noted that Paul is not setting out to condemn homosexuality or define what is sinful in Romans 1. The mention of homosexual acts is an analogy that is part of a larger arguement. Paul discusses the pagans rejecting their natural worship of God in exchange for idols. This causes wickedness in their lives. Part of this wickedness paralleled their rejection of God. Men (women) reject their internal disposition to women (men) and exchange it for lustful relations with men (women). This is not a universal condemnation of homosexual acts for the following reasons: 1) the acts described are motivated out of lust. Any lustful action is sinful. 2) the participants are heterosexual. They have a "use" for the opposite sex but they exchange it for what is against their nature. Homosexuals have no natural use for the opposite sex and would find heterosexual acts contrary to their nature. Paul's analogy also would break down if the participants were homosexual. Homosexuals have no natural inclination to the opposite sex, which would correspond to pagans having no natural inclination to worship God. This would remove their guilt for not worshipping God.

Homosexuality is merely the method of the sin in Genesis 19 in the same way that using a computer is merely the method of internet fraud.

I am not sure how to interpret 1 Cor 6:9, largely because Paul coined the word there. It's meaning is not clear from its context and using the meaning of its root words to determine its meaning is dangerous since words have meanings seperate from their components.

It is simple to understand the references to male-female relations makes sense when one considers that these relationships are overwhelmingly more frequent.
 
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Shane Roach

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fragmentsofdreams said:
To understand my position, you will probably need to first understand how I determine whether something is sinful. Jesus summarized the entire Law and Prophets with the commandments to love God and love one's neighbor (which included one's enemies) (Matthew 22:37-40). Therefore, if something cannot be shown to conflict either of these commandments, its sinfulness is highly suspect. 1 Corinthians 6:12 and 10:23 tells us that all things are lawful but not necessarily profitable. We are not to be mastered by something. This sets the burden of proof on the side of showing that it is sinful or not profitable. Finally, we are to evaluate teachings based on the fruits they bear (Matthew 7).

Of course, even after doing this, it is profitable to look at any passages that appear to contradict our conclusion and try to resolve this apparent contradiction. If we cannot, it would be prudent to be cautious about the issue because our understanding is clearly incomplete.

Therefore, I look at a covenanted (permanent, spiritual, and monogamous) homosexual relationship that mirrors heterosexual marriage and do not see any offenses against the two great commandments. I then look at whether it could be a hinderance or could master someone in such a relationship. There are some situations were this could be the case, but this are the same situations that would hinder or master a person in a heterosexual marriage. The experiences of many homosexuals couples who have been together for decades reveal that the relationships can be profitable. Finally, while I do see some bad fruits of some of the arguments used to condone homosexuality, I do not see bad fruits resulting from a homosexual couple approaching their relationship from the perspective of Christian marriage.

I'll address the apparent contradictions to passages in the Bible in my next post. I already had my browser crash once and don't want to have to rewrite this again.
Your very first statement is false. These are the two greatest commandments, not a summary. "On these hang all the law and the prophets," means that all the law and the prophets is based on these two already, even before Christ had died. Despite folks like PastorFreud delighting in trying to make a mockery of the Old Testament teachings, there was not then nor is there now anything wrong with it. If there were, Paul would not have agreed to make a public spectacle of still walking in the law for the sake of the Jerusalem worshipers that still held to the law in Acts 21:26

One of the two verses you quote then goes on to specifically point out that one of the inconvenient things to be avoided is sexual sins. 1 Corintians 7 is right after it, and goes into great detail on marriage, always confirming that it is about men and women. At no time is there any mention of accepting the burning of one man for another man or likewise women for women. That sort of thing falls entirely outside the purvue of marriage in every single text in the Bible, and, so far as I know, in all extra-Biblical texts as well.

I've had that happen with me before, losing a long post. Frustrating! Sorry that happened.
 
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Shane Roach

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fragmentsofdreams said:
I believe that many of the laws of the Old Testament were intended to promote the survival of the Chosen People. For exmaple, many of the Kosher laws protect people from disease. Part of the survival of the Hebrews depended on producing plenty of progeny to help them survive against the many powerful enemies that surrounded them. The context of the levitical prohibitions against homosexuality appears to be directed at directing all sexuality to the creation of legitimate children. Christianity does not have this concern, as evidenced by the way it views celibacy as honorable rather than shameful.

Onto Romans, which I like despite what you may think. What I don't like is when people pull one verse out of an arguement without looking at the whole of the arguement. First, it should be noted that Paul is not setting out to condemn homosexuality or define what is sinful in Romans 1. The mention of homosexual acts is an analogy that is part of a larger arguement. Paul discusses the pagans rejecting their natural worship of God in exchange for idols. This causes wickedness in their lives. Part of this wickedness paralleled their rejection of God. Men (women) reject their internal disposition to women (men) and exchange it for lustful relations with men (women). This is not a universal condemnation of homosexual acts for the following reasons: 1) the acts described are motivated out of lust. Any lustful action is sinful. 2) the participants are heterosexual. They have a "use" for the opposite sex but they exchange it for what is against their nature. Homosexuals have no natural use for the opposite sex and would find heterosexual acts contrary to their nature. Paul's analogy also would break down if the participants were homosexual. Homosexuals have no natural inclination to the opposite sex, which would correspond to pagans having no natural inclination to worship God. This would remove their guilt for not worshipping God.

Homosexuality is merely the method of the sin in Genesis 19 in the same way that using a computer is merely the method of internet fraud.

I am not sure how to interpret 1 Cor 6:9, largely because Paul coined the word there. It's meaning is not clear from its context and using the meaning of its root words to determine its meaning is dangerous since words have meanings seperate from their components.

It is simple to understand the references to male-female relations makes sense when one considers that these relationships are overwhelmingly more frequent.
You say you believe the laws were for one reason, but the Bible states they are for entirely different ones. The law was the Hebrew commitment of a covenant relationship. The New Testament tells us that its purpose, far from making childred, was twofold: 1, to demonstrate good and evil, and 2, To lead us to Christ.

As you might well expect, I don't find 1 Cor 6:9 all that difficult. People invent new turns of phrase all the time. What you have yet to provide me is any evidence, in or out of the Bible, that this hypothesis that homosexuality is only wrong in certain circumstances has any basis anywhere at all except in the minds of those of you who believe it. At this point anything, from any source, would be helpful in explaining where this idea comes from, other than perhaps a misunderstanding of the verse about all the law and the prophets hanginging on love of God and one's neighbor as indicating that there were some parts of the Old Testament that somehow do not already follow those precepts.

Finally, there is no indication that there actually exists this special version of the homosexual who simply cannot be attracted to the opposite sex. My uncle, who I told you of earlier I think, was married before he was gay. Many experience this, and it is explained by people such as yourself that they just discovered it later in life, and had been repressing it. There is a vast range of homosexual behaviors. None of it proves that there is therefore something uniquely cruel about a gay person being told to control and direct their lusts rightly towards the opposite sex than it is to tell a man not to sleep around, or sleep even with a few women even though he may love them all and they may indeed love him and accept the openess of a relationship. Indeed, the idea that people who have been married and divorced should not be remarried indicates to me that the whole idea was to prevent people from popping in and out of marriage as a way to bypass the idea that they ought to simply have one spouse.

In 1 Romans, it even goes a step further, describing the homosexual acts as unseemly or shameful. Why would this be if there were a number of homosexuals for whom it was no shame at all?
 
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chalice_thunder

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Shane Roach said:
Your very first statement is false. These are the two greatest commandments, not a summary. "On these hang all the law and the prophets," means that all the law and the prophets is based on these two already, even before Christ had died.
Actually - these 2 greatest commandments are KNOWN AS "The Summary of the Law."

I really think that they encompass everything.

If you are in love and charity with God and your neighbor/enemy - well, what kind of sin would you be prone to act out?
 
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Shane Roach

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chalice_thunder said:
Actually - these 2 greatest commandments are KNOWN AS "The Summary of the Law."

I really think that they encompass everything.

If you are in love and charity with God and your neighbor/enemy - well, what kind of sin would you be prone to act out?
I never said they don't encompass everything, I said that all of the Law is already in perfect accord with these two statements. Misunderstanding them as a replacement rather than an explanation in terms of how you choose to apply the tag "summary" leads to the practice of behaviors without the proper respect for other things that are all over the New Testament, including as I mentioned earlier, though perhaps you missed it, of leading new Christians to be encouraged to sin, which is a most unloving thing to do.
 
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chalice_thunder

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Shane Roach said:
I never said they don't encompass everything, I said that all of the Law is already in perfect accord with these two statements. Misunderstanding them as a replacement rather than an explanation in terms of how you choose to apply the tag "summary" leads to the practice of behaviors without the proper respect for other things that are all over the New Testament, including as I mentioned earlier, though perhaps you missed it, of leading new Christians to be encouraged to sin, which is a most unloving thing to do.

I stand by my statement that "If you are in love and charity with God and your neighbor/enemy then you are far from sin." This one statement fulfills the great commandments/summary of the law. It also does not lead people astray. Jesus' Law of Love could never do that.

But those who submit themselves to all kinds of Old Testament Laws (and indeed torment others with strict adherence of them) find themselves so swept away with legalism that there is little time for love...in my opinion.
 
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Shane Roach

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chalice_thunder said:
I stand by my statement that "If you are in love and charity with God and your neighbor/enemy then you are far from sin." This one statement fulfills the great commandments/summary of the law. It also does not lead people astray. Jesus' Law of Love could never do that.

But those who submit themselves to all kinds of Old Testament Laws (and indeed torment others with strict adherence of them) find themselves so swept away with legalism that there is little time for love...in my opinion.
I've never submited myself to legalism, nor has anyone I have seen disagreeing with you so far. The question is not whether or not we should love. Obviously we should. The question is how to discern who is or is not loving in accordance with what we know from the command of the New Testament to watch out for false doctrines and their teachers and practitioners.

I hardly think maintaining the teachings of the Apostles constitutes legalism. You've also not answered the questions I have asked regarding how you come to the idea that ther was ever anything wrong with the prohibitions with homosexuality, any reference to the prohibitions falling outside the general continuing exhortation to avoid sexual sin, or how you would accuse people who obey the commands of the New Testament to protect the church from false teachings are somehow giving in to legalism. I can't find much at all in your posts except accusations of various types meant to imply that whoever disagrees with you is just mean.
 
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PastorFreud

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Shane Roach said:
The problem isn't the use of hermeneutics, the problem is that your arguments don't hold any water compared to the examples you've given. So far I haven't seen your argument, just several promises to get around to it eventually. I ask once again, demonstrate your argument. Why try to drag a half dozen other subjects into the mix?
The problem is the use of Scripture. No text interprets itself. Every text has a current reader, an author, and an original audience. Let's look at these one at a time.

1. The text itself as the determiner of meaning -- even though this sounds like the position Billy Graham is taking when he says "The Bible says..." I don't think this is what he really means. It is what literalists mean. The text means exactly what the translated English words appear to mean. With Webster's and the text, we have all we need to understand it.

There is also the idea that text has properties given to it by God that transcend what the author may have intended or what the original audience may have heard. God can use this text to mean something totally different to any person God choses to reveal meaning to. This makes the text a supernatural and mystical book and the process of determining meaning is similar to divination.

2. The reader determines the meaning. This isn't the same as saying the reader discovers or deciphers the meaning. This is the idea that the reader determines the meaning as he reads. He creates the meaning and therefore each text can have multiple meanings. The text is rather like an inkblot that the reader projects his own interpretation onto. We hear some Christians who say, "Well, this is what the text means to me...." or "I know the text means that to you, but to me it means ...." A text can have multiple applications of meaning, but can it have multiple meanings depending on the reader?

3. The author and audience as determiners of meaning. What the author consciously intended to say and how the audience understood the text is what the text means. God's inspiration was of a human author to write in contemporary languages to a contemporary audience using contemporary forms of literature. Therefore, we have to interpret the text as we would any literary work. We have to read poetry as poetry, for example.

Furthermore, we have to understand that the author wanted to communicate a principle or pattern of meaning. This level of meaning is essential. Paul wrote "do not get drunk on wine." Does this mean we can get drunk on beer? If we understand the cutural situation at the time, we know that "wine" for these folks was about 1/3 as potent as our present day wine. These guys had to drink quite a bit to get drunk. We can see that Paul's focus and intention was on the state of drunkeness, not the means used to get there. If Paul were to speak to us today, he would not consider drunkeness based on Rum or Vodka to be acceptable while drunkeness based on wine to be a sin.

This is the foundation of hermeneutics. We have to come as close as we can to the language, culture, and literary forms the author used in order to find the intention of the author. Sometimes, we see the intention in the response of the audience. When Jesus told Peter to "feed his sheep", he apparently intended this to be taken at least somewhat literally. We see Peter organizing the disciples and delegating to deacons the task of caring for the widows and orphans. But Peter didn't do it by multiplying loaves and fishes. He did it by helping others learn to give of their possessions to those in need. These are intentions we can be certain are still applicable today.

When we apply this process to the passages on homosexuality, it becomes clear that the authors are writing against something other than the kinds of committed relationships we see between same sex couples today.

Another point that must be understood, however, is that God's intentions are not the same for everyone. We can find more than adequate evidence that demonstrates women are to be the property of men. But we can also see that Jesus showed us a better way regarding the place of women. Slavery was acceptable at one point in Hebrew history, but no longer. Perhaps it would be better to say that as humans were able to understand the revelation of God more clearly, they saw that slavery is not acceptable. The writings of early generations must be read in light of the fuller revelation that came later. For Christians, this revelation is Christ, and there is no Jew or Greek, male or female, slave or free, in Christ.
 
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chalice_thunder

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Shane Roach said:
I've never submited myself to legalism, nor has anyone I have seen disagreeing with you so far.
I never accused you of this. I merely was stating that I come across a good many others who do appear to submit more to legalism than love...that's all.

As for discerning false doctrine and false teachers - you have the Holy Spirit to guide you, just as I do. But this is one of the areas where we differ. People who make it their business to point out the sin of others come dangerously close (in my book) to becoming false teachers. Upon whose authority are they proclaiming their interpretation (opinion) of scripture?

Shane Roach said:
I hardly think maintaining the teachings of the Apostles constitutes legalism. You've also not answered the questions I have asked regarding how you come to the idea that ther was ever anything wrong with the prohibitions with homosexuality, any reference to the prohibitions falling outside the general continuing exhortation to avoid sexual sin, or how you would accuse people who obey the commands of the New Testament to protect the church from false teachings are somehow giving in to legalism. I can't find much at all in your posts except accusations of various types meant to imply that whoever disagrees with you is just mean.
The way in which I read the Bible, there are not prohibitions against homosexuality per se - but against idolators, temple prostitution and the like. There is not one passage in the bible that condemns loving, monogamous gay relationships...you may contend there are - but I will contend that there are none - and thus we will be at an impasse.
And so I bless you and release you to God's merciful care. :wave:
 
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chalice_thunder

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Shane Roach said:
I can't find much at all in your posts except accusations of various types meant to imply that whoever disagrees with you is just mean.

Disagreement is one thing. There is some of that on this board. There is also a decided mean-spirit coming from people on both sides of the discussion. And I am dead-set against mean-spiritedness.

I find your accusation mean - but maybe I am overly sensitive.

AND - if we are supposed to be ON TOPIC - I will assert again. YES, one can indeed be Christian and Gay.
 
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Shane Roach said:
Excommunication, in its original form and among the apostolic churches of today, did not and does not mean kicking a person out of the community. It meant withholding communion from a person until that person had confessed their sins, made restitution if needed and showed all the other signs of a full repentance.


Do I agree with the practice? No. But that's another thread.







Exactly. I have said before, but it bears repeating I suppose, that forgiveness and acceptance is always available. On can be taken back into communion any number of times. We're not talking here about human beings making permanent judgement about the soul, which only God can rightly judge. Rather, we are told to use some discernment so that people who actually have no faith don't cause discord and chaos within the church at will with no recourse to some sort of corrective measure.




Yes, I understand the reputed logic, I just don't agree with it.



I wonder why you disagree with that teaching?




Because I have studied history, anthropology, sociology, psychology, textual issues, language, language usage and other disciplines in addition to reading the Bible itself. Since I do not assume that I am capable of opening the Bible and not projecting my own thoughts, wishes, desires, prejudices, and time in history into the text, I try to retain as much objectivity as possible by reading commentary by professional exegetes from across the spectrum. I also read Biblical scholars who focus on historical-critical method. Thus, I have some idea which teachings are original to Jesus and which came later. Those teachings that came later are of lesser importance than those that are original to Jesus. If a later teaching is in any way in conflict with what Jesus taught, I go with what Jesus taught. If Jesus was silent on the subject, I do not assume that another human has better judgment than I do until after I study the issue and the various points of view and am able to make an educated decision.



Indeed, I wonder why people keep bringing things up within the context of this thread but then decide it is necessary to make an entire new thread to discuss it. It bears directly on what has been discussed here.



Excommunication does? That was what I meant I disagreed with the practice of.



I mean, if you just flat don't want to talk about it, fine, but there's no rule against letting a conversation cover all the various subjects that are germain to the issue.



The person with the authority to decide what is to the point in a thread and what is not happens to be the moderator. I'm not going to assume that I can speak or think for the moderator. I’m not going to assume that I have the authority to take a thread off topic. There is nothing difficult about beginning another thread to discuss excommunication, so the way I see it, I might as well remain as much as possible with the thread topic. My personal disagreement with the practice of excommunication has very little to do with whether or not homosexual persons are Christian.



I don't see any reason for you to feel self conscious about discussing this issue in the context of how it relates to the subject at hand.




I think there might be two erroneous assumptions in the above statement. First, I'm not self-conscious. Second, the issue for another thread was excommunication.



Again, though, don't mistake this as some sort of attempt to force an issue on you that you just don't want to discuss or are uncofortable discussing in this context.




If we are going to discuss anything at all, then the focus on me and my motivation(s) or lack of motivation(s) and so on is going to need to vanish. One of the primary reasons that discussions become heated is due to not discussing the other person’s statement, but rather, discussing the other person, and/or speculating on that person’s motivation(s).

 
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razzelflabben said:
I would love to believe as you but I simply don't see it in the scirptures, anyway, that is between the individual and God.




I don't see the proscription in the Bible. Other than that, we are in accord.



The problem with any form of excommunication apart from the false teachers that can lead others astray, is that it does not help the person to be restored in
Christ, but rather forces the person to do what is necessary to return to the fold as it were.




Again, I see it exactly the same way.



True repentance is not necessary for this return to occur and thus it is ineffective and against God's command to love as if we were a family.



All I can do is agree. :)
 
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razzelflabben

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Shane Roach said:
If I have even once said that anyone who sins at all is to be put out of the church, please point it out to me. You keep talking as if I had.

Your husband struggled privately with a sin, hiding it. Is that somehow unrepentant? He's not pretending it's not a sin. He wasn't doing it correctly in trying to get his life right, but there was no public knowledge of his sin, and he did not go around preaching that it was not sin.

The purpose of church discipline as I said before appears to be to keep peace and stability within the church. A person either preaching a sinful doctrine, or living one in such a way that it is obvious that while they claim to be Christian they do not even so much as believe the teachings of the apostles, is a stumbling block for other believers, who may be tempted to sin by that example being accepted by the church as a whole.

I have never, ever, ever, never, EVER said that someone who is struggling with sin should be put out of the church. You repeatedly give me examples of people struggling with sin as if they applied to what I have been talking about. They do not. Please, let us put this argument to rest. I agree with you here. If you have something that addresses the verses I have shown, stating unequivicolly that there is a type of behavior and teaching that is to be put out, carefully yes, but put out only until there is some sign of repentence and willingness to acknowledge sin and fight it, then please show that to me.

I have nothing to argue against in your post. I agree with all of it, except the part that goes, "therefore no on should ever be put out of the church." Obviously, the church has to be carefull about that, and I have said as mich, but nevertheless it is the duty of the church.
I agree, there seems to be some miscommunication on this issue and it would be best left at least for the time. To correct you however, I never said that therefore no one should ever be put out of the church, but rather that before such harsh measures are taken, one must be careful to exercise commpassion, patience, church discipline, biblical teaching, councel from the Holy Spirit, etc. Your posts have made it sound like these things have already been done by the verses you stated. I purpose to you that because we are talking about spiritual matters, there is no such thing as one size fits all, for we cannot know what is in the heart, that is left for God alone.
 
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